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AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

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5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

What does everyone think of the new contrast paints for Nighthaunt? As someone new to painting, I'm pretty excited. 

Im really looking forward to testing these out. My initial thought is that the Nighthaunt Gloom is somewhat a prototype of the Contrast paint line. However since im (almost) done painting my Nighthaunts, Im very unsure about using them on those. Don’t really need to discover a new fancy product or paintstyle that have me consider repainting everything. Did that once on my Nurgle and it ended up in a half painted army suffering from major identical colourscheme crisis and I havn’t painted on them ever since.

SO bottomline is that I am really excited about the Contrasts and will test them out on a Blood Bowl team, Warcry stuff or maybe on that Rebel Grot mob for Gorkamorka I been wanting to do for some time.

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33 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

Im really looking forward to testing these out. My initial thought is that the Nighthaunt Gloom is somewhat a prototype of the Contrast paint line. However since im (almost) done painting my Nighthaunts, Im very unsure about using them on those. Don’t really need to discover a new fancy product or paintstyle that have me consider repainting everything. Did that once on my Nurgle and it ended up in a half painted army suffering from major identical colourscheme crisis and I havn’t painted on them ever since.

SO bottomline is that I am really excited about the Contrasts and will test them out on a Blood Bowl team, Warcry stuff or maybe on that Rebel Grot mob for Gorkamorka I been wanting to do for some time.

I'm in the same boat, interested in them but my colour scheme for nighthaunt has been chosen and I don't like changing part way through.

I am very interested in the white one however, as my tyranid army has white carapaces and they can be awful to highlight and shade properly

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Something a bit different, I'd like some feedback on the following list. I am concerned about the amount of points invested in heroes and the low wound count, but I have a hard time giving up the hero toys. If I were to drop a hero, which one? Was thinking KoS but then I got no command abilities to use really, but the spirit torment provides both healing and rerolls to hit for the gheists... decisions

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (240)
Spirit Torment (120)
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
Knight of Shrouds (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
UNITS
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (280)
BEHEMOTHS
Black Coach (280)
BATTALIONS
Shroudguard (110)
TOTAL: 1990/2000

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@Scurvydog

seems a tad light on bodies having 2 named characters, the shrouguard, and the coach. (4 disproportionate point sinks)

I would personally only field the coach in support of hexes or swooping around large units of hosts

Edited by Neck-Romantic

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So Forbidden Power is here! Anyone else excited to see if these endless spells will be our new go to tricks!

Dear gods of nerdy wisdom please let one of these spells provide some serious Bravery debuff!

 

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Just spent a bit of time going over the last twelve pages (getting ready for a tournament in a month or so), and as one of the first battle tomes of the edition I think we are a long way out from getting a reworked battle tome.  GW seems to be pretty cautious when it comes to rules changes, first they'll try point changes, then probably add a new battalion or two in a white dwarf article, and then much later revise the battle tome.

The obvious problem with relying on the generals handbook is that it has a six plus month ramp time, and if you think of what the meta was like six months ago, things were a little better for nighthaunt. Still if the last Chapter approved is any indication, it will include mostly points reductions for underperforming units and maybe a few nerfs for very  underpriced units.

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GW should be able to look at their sales of chainghasts to see how useful they are. I never saw anyone who bothered to buy the strange hero and 2 ghasts box. I can't see my self buying harridans or stalkers either. The issue with way too many 1 wound similar save and move units, some will just be better

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13 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

GW should be able to look at their sales of chainghasts to see how useful they are. I never saw anyone who bothered to buy the strange hero and 2 ghasts box. I can't see my self buying harridans or stalkers either. The issue with way too many 1 wound similar save and move units, some will just be better

I got the chainghast box but only cause I like the spirit torment mini better than the one from Soulwars. Have not assembled the chainghasts yet but does freequently ebay searches to find more. Would love to have at least four of them. 

Would love to buy harridans and stalkers too cause I like the models but no reason beyond that. I don’t think we need an all new tome a few warscroll and point changes would be enough.

 

 

Edited by Greasygeek

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@Greasygeek

Same; bought the alternate sculpt Torment and had to pay for the chainghasts.

I really hate the Harridan sculpt, but might invest in glavewraiths if they made them super cheap point wise (Intend to chop the horseheads off and use regular skulls for heads)

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19 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

@Greasygeek

Same; bought the alternate sculpt Torment and had to pay for the chainghasts.

I really hate the Harridan sculpt, but might invest in glavewraiths if they made them super cheap point wise (Intend to chop the horseheads off and use regular skulls for heads)

I'm the odd one out because I dont really mind the harridan sculpt, the only thing I would change is the part where they hit the base, as some of them look way too much like they have legs and it bugs me.

I want to like chainghasts, and have used them before solely because bladeghiests get full rerolls regardless of how close a spirit torment is to them. But 40 point per model is too large and I can't see them dropping enough for me to use them without them becoming OP levels of cheap. Still, if they became like... 4 for 100? Maybe 60 for 2 and a discount for the full 4. Basically become a pseudo hero unit, again though, that becomes OP levels of cheap

Edited by Qrow

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@Qrow

Agreed. It becomes hard to balance their pointcost vs their odd statline, same with things like glaives, Hexes, and the Mourngul.

Push it too far down and we will abuse them, and we know it : P

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14 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

@Qrow

Agreed. It becomes hard to balance their pointcost vs their odd statline, same with things like glaives, Hexes, and the Mourngul.

Push it too far down and we will abuse them, and we know it : P

Pretty much, another death player I know wants the mourngul dropped to 180-200 points, I'm not sure my wallet can handle that great of a point drop and I'm entirely certain that I don't want that much cheese in my diet.

It is hard to balance, but I'm hoping for a small-modest point drop for the more unused models (hexwraiths, harridans, chainghasts, kurdoss), to tide over until we get a new codex in 2-3ish years.

As an aside, what do people expect for the black coach? Stay the same, increase/decrease? I see such polarising opinions on it.

Edited by Qrow

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Honestly, for what the Mourngul is (a modest beatstick with limited regeneration) a 60 to 80 point drop is reasonable. Its not the terror it once was.

Coach is about right, maybe 20 point drop as its pure offense ability is a bit low for its cost.

Glaives/Chainghast/Hexes definitely need a drop.

Myrmourns... maaaybe a small drop (theyre squishy, and harm themselves)

Reapers most likely an increase or loss of horde discount/"Battleline If"

I feel GoS and ST's should be the same cost.

Tomb Banshee should be cheaper

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13 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Honestly, for what the Mourngul is (a modest beatstick with limited regeneration) a 60 to 80 point drop is reasonable. Its not the terror it once was.

Coach is about right, maybe 20 point drop as its pure offense ability is a bit low for its cost.

Glaives/Chainghast/Hexes definitely need a drop.

Myrmourns... maaaybe a small drop (theyre squishy, and harm themselves)

Reapers most likely an increase or loss of horde discount/"Battleline If"

I feel GoS and ST's should be the same cost.

Tomb Banshee should be cheaper

I think I would sit comfortably with the mourngul at 240, it would feel about right.

Myrmourns are so contentious, I have seen people on forums insist that they are way undercosted, I think they are about right with the horde discount.

KoS (both variants) drop slightly, mainly the mounted one though. I mean... vampire lords are pretty much flat better 9/10 times.

Can't remember the last time I say a cairn wraith on the table... but I can't see a hero dropping below 60 ever really, and he does provide budget 6+ death save coverage.

I'm a fan of the current tomb banshee, wouldn't mind a cost drop but I don't really expect one.

 

Here is a slightly (very slightly) different convo. We established earlier that even severe point drops on the nighthaunt endless spells won't fix the fact that they are  terrible. What about battalions though? I will seriously be ecstatic if the shrieker host and deathriders get a cost drop. Especially the shreiker host; I get that it is a 5-drop, but it has no battleline and most armies negate both of its effect pretty easily. Could see a small increase to the shroudguard battalion though, purely because of how popular it is.

Edited by Qrow
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The shroudguards popularity is a combination of lackluster options, a decent buff, and usable units tho. 

Not truly fair to tax it just because its useable.

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HUGE news for Nighthaunt today from Warhammer Community:

"the Legion of Grief – a new Legion of Nagash led by Lady Olynder herself who allow you to combine the terrifying might of the Nighthaunt’s full roster with Bravery-manipulating game mechanics, gravesites and more…"

While the details aren't clear yet, IMO the one thing holding Nighthaunt back more than anything else is that it just can't compete with Legion of Nagash's ability to recycle units. This could fix that.

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Thought about the newly announced legion of Grief in forbidden power?

Sounds like Nighthaunt get added as a more "regular" legions of Nagash force, using many of the same mechanics seen in sacrement/grand host/blood/night with grave sites and a few unique mechanics.

Think this will be a matched play addition? I'd assume so, but hopefully they go a bit more into that later before preorder time.

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49 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

HOLY HELL

...

I am interested

This ^

 

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So, been doing some mathhammer to try and figure out a list, I've mostly been focused on hexwraiths, bladegheist, grimghast, and chainrasp. My goal was to see if there are any other units that make sense to take instead of just spamming grimghast like I see so many list doing. I've broken it down into cost per wound inflicted, and cost per effective wound.

  • Glaive Wraith stalkers: 36 points per wound inflicted, 7.5 points per effective wound. To get this I took the value for both charging and not charging and averaged them out since they can fall back and charge, so should get charges at least half of the time.
  • Grimghast reapers: 21 points per wound inflicted, 7 points per effective wound. I just assumed they would always be attacking units larger than 5.
  • Chainrasp horde: 21 points per wound inflicted, 5.3 points per effective wound. I assumed a unit of 11 or more, and there are non-trivial challenges to getting them all into range to attack, so while they seem quite good on paper, their returns in most games will not hit this level of efficiency.
  • Hexwraiths: 40 points per wound inflicted, and 8 points per effective wound. No assumptions, kind of inefficient. 
  • Bladeghiest revenants (unbuffed): 30 points per wound inflicted, and 9 points per effective wound.
  • Bladeghiest revenants (buffed): 15 points per wound inflicted, and 9 points per effective wound, or 5.4 points per effective wound with formation. This assumes chaingiest or spirit torment, and a charge (which gets them an extra attack). If we make the same assumption we did for the glaive wraith stalkers (charges half of the time) they end up with 18 points per wound inflicted.

To no one's surprise grimghast are our best battleline, they have solid output, don't require babysitting, and are tougher than just about any unit except for chainrasps. Hexwraiths are over cost, but not by as much as you would think. A minor reduction of 20 points per five, brings them into line toughness wise with grimghasts, and while their offence would be nothing to write home about (35 points per wound inflicted, more than half again what grimghast pay), they have to pay for speed, and fairly reliable mortal wounds in the movement phase. Bladeghiest are really interesting, set up properly they are the strongest offensive unit we have, and by a fair margin at that. However, they require a lot of babysitting, and many things can go wrong for them.

A list I'm kicking around after doing the math, 

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Mortal Realm: Shyish

LEADERS

Dreadblade Harrow (100) - General - Command Trait : Ruler of the Spirit Hosts - Artefact : Pendant of the Fell Wind

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140) - Lore of the Underworlds : Soul Cage - Infernal Lantern (Artefact) : Beacon of Nagashizzar

Spirit Torment (120)

Reikenor the Grimhailer (180) - Lore of the Underworlds : Shademist

Vampire Lord (140) - Nightmare - Allies

 

UNITS

2 x Chainghasts (80)

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

20 x Grimghast Reapers (280)

10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

 

BATTALIONS

The Condemned (150)

Shroudguard (110)

 

TOTAL: 1980/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 111 LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/3 ALLIES: 140/400

 

 

Edited by grimgold
added a list for review

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5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

HUGE news for Nighthaunt today from Warhammer Community:

"the Legion of Grief – a new Legion of Nagash led by Lady Olynder herself who allow you to combine the terrifying might of the Nighthaunt’s full roster with Bravery-manipulating game mechanics, gravesites and more…"

While the details aren't clear yet, IMO the one thing holding Nighthaunt back more than anything else is that it just can't compete with Legion of Nagash's ability to recycle units. This could fix that.

I have wanted more bravey debuffs, this sounds perfect. Gravesites are just gravy on top.

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Yes, I was always puzzled that we didnt have more Bravery interactions. 

Was originally expecting us to get a 'terrorgheist' style banshee scream with 3 dice too, and disappointed we couldnt Ally one in. Perhaps now as a FEC merc....

Edited by Neck-Romantic

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6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

HUGE news for Nighthaunt today from Warhammer Community:

Nah, huge news for Legions of Nagash, another Legion added to the other 4. For NH it's basically GW admitting that without a rewrite (which won't happen any time soon) they are better off in LoN than in NH. 

Will it make ghosts competitive yes, but it won't be as NH though 😢

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