Tropical Ghost General Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, dmorley21 said: do units of Reapers need to have an Extoller of Shyish (bell ringer)? Yes. It's the unit leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaky101 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Is it worth it to run more than 1 Spirit Torment or GoS? I recently acquired multiples of each but am wondering if I should even use those in my lists. Having 2 GoS to let my chainrasp wound on 2s sounds amazing though, but unfortunately Spirit Torment's aura can't stack so I'd lose a bit of value there. Also would it be unwise to run squads of 10 for chainrasp? Since they would never have the reroll 1s for wounding. I have 60 at my disposal so would 3 squads of 20 be best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) I actually prefer running 2 St's and havnt included a GoS in a while. You can split your Torments and have 1 with your hammer and 1 with your anvil; and their semi-garaunteed healing is somewhat more reliable than the Guardian's. (I went an entire tourney without ever getting a single heal off from 2 GoS so I got pretty sour on them) Edited August 8, 2019 by Neck-Romantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeisance Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Do Nighthaunts have any game outside spamming Reapers with Cogs from off the table? I have a Nighthaunt army I've never actually played with, can't seem to sell and that's the only tournament build I've seen. What is actually good, list-wise, for the faction post FAQ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Obeisance said: Do Nighthaunts have any game outside spamming Reapers with Cogs from off the table? I have a Nighthaunt army I've never actually played with, can't seem to sell and that's the only tournament build I've seen. What is actually good, list-wise, for the faction post FAQ? Oddly, I haven't actually seen many lists like what you mention apart from what I ran (60 Reapers in Death Stalkers), but I've never played in a tournament. The bottom line is that Nighthaunt are not a competitive tournament army, so if you want to try for top 10 don't take them. The key to a good list with them is maximizing their stellar movement and Wave of Terror abilities. Many of us are starting to think that means lots of minimum sized units. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoogens Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 So I've been thinking (wow!) and I can't figure it out. Is there any way to get Kurdoss up on the table to "deepstrike" (through Spectral Summons) on Turn 1, with you going second, but still having him on the battlefield during your opponents Turn 1 (him going first) to steal his first CP? Available in the list is Dreadblade Harrow as a General. I don't think it's possible due to Spectral Summons having to happen at the start of the movement phase, but please oh please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd love for this to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 (edited) The Harrow's movement ability and spectral summons both state begining of move phase; since its your turn you choose the order. So yes. You can port the Harrow upfield, summon a unit (or hero) and hope for a 9" charge... but remember summons takes a Command point; unless you paid for extra or Kurdoss ate one you might not have any for rerolling that charge. If you fail then your general and your summoned unit are in a pretty sticky situation Edited August 9, 2019 by Neck-Romantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoogens Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 20 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said: The Harrow's movement ability and spectral summons both state begining of move phase; since its your turn you choose the order. So yes. Doesn't the Harrow's ability only state that a "check" is done at the beginning of movement, but the actual teleport happens when you're supposed to do a normal move? Quote If this model is more than 3" from any enemy models at the start of your movement phase, instead of making a normal move, you can remove it from the battlefield and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 I dunno... thats splitting hairs imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoogens Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said: I dunno... thats splitting hairs imho Hehe, I really feel GW has a lot to learn from creators such as WotC, from Magic specifically. The abilities etc need to be more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 I'de agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) So went to Blackout at the weekend, a 96 player 2k 2day event in UK. Took a fluffy ghost list. Got 1-4. Had 3 of my loses that were basically decided by a single dice roll. Game 1 - Against Skaven, lost on objective points, but only just, not much I could have done to deal with the 3 x 40 plaguemonks and immunity from the bells. A close and very swingy game until start of turn 5. Game 2 - Against Gloomspite, lost due to failing a single charge in turn 5. Had I made it I would have scored the objective and won by a 17-16, but lost 13-16. Game 3 - Against Skaven, won this as it was relocation orb and the objective stayed on my side of the board for the entire game. Nothing the other player could have done to reach it, as I had blocked off his gnawholes. Game 4 - Against Idoneth, lost due to priority roll on turn 2. They won and their 12 eels took out Kurdoss, Lady O, Reik and 4 myrmourns. Elsewhere I lost 10 rasps and 3 SHs to thralls. Start of my turn 2 I had less than 1k of models left on the board and he still had everything left. I almost managed to claw it back at the end, but they had 'commanding' terrain feature in their deployment and used the extra CP on 4 occasions to auto-immune the big block of eels from battleshock, which tied me up until turn 5 from being able to score enough points. Game 5 - Nurgle with Skaven, lost again on the turn 2 priority roll. I had Lady O and Mr.K in combat with the screaming bell. Had I won I could have healed Lady O, killed the bell, and then kill enough of the 40 monks (who weren't in combat yet) to make them run from battleshock. But my opponent won the roll, and basically swamped the objectives, killing 600pts+ of models that turn. Overall, 4 of the 5 games were really fun and very close, it was only the eels game was a bit of a ordeal, due to having nothing to counter or protect myself with. I had screened as best as I could, but when eels can run 20" and then get an 11"+3" on the charge there is not much you can do, and I even had all 3 of my big heroes sat on mystical terrain, so they had 4+/6++/6+++ saves, but not much you can do really when Mr.K takes 14 mortal wounds from their pre-combat mortal wound zaps 😢 and your dice decide to give up on you as well. I scored all 5 of my hidden agendas and denied 3 of my opponents, which I was pleased with. The difference in the final standings between the armies 'that have' and the armies 'that don't have' was huge, with the top half being dominated by armies that could take part in the activation wars or had access to lots of summoning, etc... Overall I came 79th out of 96. I had lots of fun, drank a fair bit and would definitely go again if I can, though maybe not with ghosts, as the power creep in a year from now might be a bit unbearable unless they are the ones that get the benefits 😂. Nighthaunt placed 71st, 79th, 92nd and 96th. Legion of Grief (not really NH but 🤷♀️) placed 24th and 94th. Not great that pure ghosts couldn't make it into the top half of the event and literally only just scraped into the top 3/4 but 🤷♀️. Overall Slaanesh did the best, with 3 in the top 5, 5 in the top 10, 7 in the top 30 and all 9 in the top 40. BoC and us ghosts did the worst. A massive drop in the amount of players taking Death factions, chatting to a fair few players and lots of them have either sold their FEC armies or left them at home due to the grief they kept getting from opponents when they just put their models on the table before the game even began 😂, and only 1 Nagash for the whole event as well 😢. I think with the recent points changes nerfing all the LoN lists, and more new books coming out, I think Death will fall further and further down the tables at more events, certainly here in the UK. If the new Death book coming out later this year changes the warscrolls for basic stuff like skelebobs and other core units, then it might help, but if it just uses the same warscrolls (which is very well could do), it might be the death knell (😋) for non FEC Death armies going forward. As they currently don't need points changes, they need some serious updates to game mechanics to compete in stuff like the activation wars. So below is some of the results for the event. The placings in the brackets are the highest and lowest placed in each faction for the event. 96 players overall - 31 with Order - 36 with Chaos - 15 with Death - 14 with Destruction Order - Deepkin 9 (1st/91st) - SCE 7 (5th/72nd) - Sylvaneth 5 (18th/89th) - Kharadron 3 (29th/82nd) - Lizards 3 (56th/95th) - Mixed Order 3 (22nd/52nd) - Wanderers 1 (30th) - Fyreslayers 1 (13th) - No DoK at the event. Chaos - Khorne 12 (12th/73rd) - Slaanesh 9 (2nd/40th) - Nurgle 6 (23rd/85th) - Skaventide 5 (27th/90th) - Tzeentch 3 (21st/90th) - BoC 1 (76th) - No StDs or Mixed Chaos at the event. Death - FEC 6 (17th/87th) - Nighthaunt 4 (71st/96th) - Legion of Blood 2 (42nd/57th) - Legion of Grief 2 (24th/94th) - Grand Host 1 (20th) - No Legion of Sacrament or Legion of Night at the event. Destruction - Gloomspite 6 (47th/91st) - Ironjaws 3 (7th/45th) - Bonesplitters 3 (19th/54h) - Mixed Destruction 1 (78th) - No BCR at the event. Edited August 12, 2019 by Tropical Ghost General 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauriv Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 I needed to quote this to a friend who plays slaanesh and often beats my ghosts and BoC, and brags about winning. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 @Tropical Ghost General You mentioned you took a fluffy list. Do you think you would have done better with a more optimized list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, dmorley21 said: Do you think you would have done better with a more optimized list? Yeah, a little bit, but still not much. So my list was: ++ 2k Golden Ghost Army ++ Dreadblade - General (Ruler of the Spirit Hosts), Midnight Tome - Spectral Tether Lady O - Reaping Scythe Kurdoss Reik - Soul Cage Spirit Torment Guardian of Souls - Spectral Tether 3 x Spirit Hosts 10 x Rasps 10 x Rasps 10 x Grims 10 x Harridans 5 x Blades 5 x Blades 4 x Myrmourn Penumbral Engine Purple Sun Shards 14 drops - 1980pts - 7 underworlds deployment options So stuff that I took that wasn't great was: 3 SHs, 10 harridans, regular GoS - 420pts. Out of everything they didn't do nealy enough work. The GoS at points meant I was occasionally wounding on 2s, but not often tbh, and it's not as decent as the torment for guaranteed revivals. The cast/unbind was ocassionally useful but not much. I'd swap them out for something like this instead: ++ 2k Golden Ghost Army (Adapted version) ++ Dreadblade - General (Ruler of the Spirit Hosts), Midnight Tome - Spectral Tether Lady O - Reaping Scythe Kurdoss Reik - Soul Cage Spirit Torment Spirit Torment (new) 10 x Rasps 10 x Rasps 10 x Grims 5 x Blades (new) 5 x Harridans (new) 5 x Blades 5 x Blades 4 x Myrmourn 4 x Myrmourn or 5 x Blades (new) Penumbral Engine Purple Sun (possibly swap out for pendulum, not sure tbh) Shards +1 CP or Geminids (new) 15 drops - 1970-1990pts - 7 underworlds deployment options Ultimately this tweaked version would have been more lethal when it got into combat with stuff, as my blades pretty much did most of the work during the game. Grims were great but are too expensive now to be spamming them. Having 2 torments would make double the re-roll options and allow for one to potentially be a sacrificial utility to be launched into enemy lines along with some blades, but only having one in the army meant it was very important to keep it safe and protected. I'd change the harridans to 5 instead of 10. They don't do enough damage unless super buffed which is too much CP and without gravesites to heal/revive they don't work well enough imo. But 5 are still worth taking as a tool to use, for when you have a low bravery opponent, as they only need to be within 6" to be giving out -1 to hit for stuff bravery 6 or less. The myrmourns were great, as they allowed me to get some extra -2 rend attacks in, so it would either be another blob of them or more blades. I might swap purple sun, it's too spikey for what it does, but when it does work, wowzer. Also the additional -1 bravery was useful, as combined with the harridans it meant bravery 7 or less was -1 to hit. Geminids are so good, my game against gloomspite, the arachnarok had gryph-feather charm and it's own -1 to hit, plus I got tagged by geminids, so was at -2 or -3 to hit, so hitting on 6s re-rolling 1s with everything, it hurt so much, plus the d3 mortal are great to chip away at stuff. Overall the engine would on average give out 3-4 CP a game, so it sucks that your opponent can benefit as well, but it also gave at least 2 CP, so it did cover it's costs every game. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 The main issue was the entire event was clearly split between the armies that have access to: re-roll hits, rather than re-roll failed hits summoning or entire unit revival first first/make you fight last mechanics (that are actually reliable unlike Soul Cage) fight twice in a row battleshock immunity healthy and easily accessible re-roll hit and wound mechanics unmodified attacks doing either extra attacks or mortal in addition to regular damage Now we have WoT, which helped turn the tides in several games, but it still wasn't enough to be able to auto-delete units in 80% of the occasions it went off. We do have Soul Cage for activation wars, but it requires the target to be within 12" of the caster and the caster to get a chance to use it in the hero phase and then also to successfully cast it and it not be auto-unbound or regular unbound. Overall not being able to engage in the activation wars is crippling and also very unenjoyable as a gaming experience. We do get some decent re-roll options with some units, but compared to stuff like plague monks or DoK or eels or lots of others, it's pretty naff and no way nearly on the same level. And when we get hit by any minus to hit modifiers it crippling. Taking grims as an example, normally hit on 4+ re-roll failed hits, with a -1 to hit, you are hitting on 5+ and not re-rolling those 4s. It's a subtle difference, but with weight of dice and attacks, it makes a huge difference not re-rolling 25% of the failed hits. Not doing mortal wounds in addition to damage is also painful. So many armies now get mortals in addition to other damage and extra hits. There was plenty of times where another 1-3 wounds would have killed the target, but the 6's for mortals didn't help to take it over the edge. To be honest, the thing that I noticed the most from this recent tournament was just how many mortals were flying about. It seemed like every action that an army took dealt out mortals. The opponent moves their models, that's D3 mortals. They charged that's a mortal wound for every 4+. When my models die on a 3+ that's 1 mortal and 6s do D3 mortals. Talking to my friend afterwards, who playing lizards at the tournament, he's going to change his list to include a shed ton of more mortal wound dealing units, because he can't compete with the amount that it being thrown around at the moment. Now we are lucky in that we get a 6+ to save it (if we are wholly within) but it's still not great tbh. I'd like to see Death in general getting a bit more survivability against mortals and against battleshock. As a grand alliance we are the terror causing endless hordes, but have so few ways to be immune to battleshock unless you have lots of CP, which has now been capped to just 1 extra per army, unless you take battalions, but LoN has guff battalions and ghost ones aren't much better, and LoG don't even have battalions. FEC are doing OK, but there's only 2 that are any good really. Overall I'm not sure that I'll be continuing with ghosts competitively until something changes drastically with the overall meta. I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere in the world, but in the UK the current state of the game is not good for Death in general and I can't see it changing until next GHB points changes in Dec/Jan. I had been working on an ogor based mixed destruction army for a few weeks and then they announced the new tyrant model and new book, so I'll probably be moving onto that tbh or to the newer Death faction book. I'll still be playing my ghosts, but not at tournaments, as they just can't compete with the new grossness and without warscroll and battletome changes, they won't be able to, points changes twice a year won't make any difference with whether an army can deal with being made to first last in combat after being attacked twice. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 @Tropical Ghost General Great analysis. Thanks. I wish ethereal saves could be used against regular wounds or mortals. I didn't realize that Reapers don't re-roll 4's when they're -1 to hit. How did you feel about taking all 3 special characters? That seems like a major point sink to me that I can't justify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, dmorley21 said: they're -1 to hit It's how all negative modifiers used to work, because 4+ is a successful hit, but then the -1 modifier turns it into a 3, which makes it fail. Same thing goes for blades re-rolls with a torment if they are at -1 to hit. Against the gloomspite my blades were -3 to hit. So they normally hit on 3s, with re-rolls of 1 and 2, but in this case they hit on 6s, and because 3s, 4s and 5s were successful hits before the -3 modifiers, I was only able to re-roll 1s and 2s. This is the huge boon that having 're-roll hits' has compared to 're-roll failed hits' has. And it's around Skaven/FEC that it started to change. 5 hours ago, dmorley21 said: How did you feel about taking all 3 special characters? Lady O is unfortunately essential. She does too many mortal wounds not to take and being a double caster is just so strong. Mr. K is the closest thing we have to a big smashy hero. I use him as a suicide attack on my opponent's general, due to getting those re-rolls. Most players take smaller heroes as their general because they want their monster heroes to get into the thick of it and as a result the big monster hero might die. So having a small(ish) base that can be teleported behind enemy lines with the dreadblade, to attempt to assassinate their general is brutal when you make that sweet 10+ charge. It's also worth having him on the board from turn 1 for his CP steal ability (which should be on a 4+ imo), because when you steal it it sets your opponent's plans back. Reik is only worth taking if you have spells that you desperately need to cast. I take the purple sun, casts on an 8+, getting a +3 helps make it more of a certainty. His fast movement helps with zipping around to offer hero support to units. He's worth using to target 4-6 wound heroes, due to his 2 damage (and potentially 2 mortals) from his scythe. He also works well at reclaiming objectives from units of 10 single wound models, due to his warscroll spell and his weapon re-rolls against 5 or more models. The biggest issue is his single cast and stupidly short range on not only his, but also the spell lore spells. Overall it's a lot of points, but what other options do we really have 🤷♂️? In an ideal world our named heroes would be 3+ ethereal. Or we should be exempt from the cap on how many heroes we can take in a list. If you add up the 6 most expensive hero options in most armies, they are at least 2-3 times more expensive than ours are, sometimes even more. Lady O, Mr.K, Reik, Briar Queen, KoSos and GoS = 1010pts. In comparison FEC who have one of the most limited options for models in the whole of AoS and have no named characters is: GKoZD, GKoTG, AR, Varghulf, GK and Courtier is 1540pts and something like LoN (Nagash, Vhordrai, VLoZD, Neffy, Mannfred and Arkhan is a whopping 2870pts. As heroes play such a large part of the game, not having access to big heroes is such a nerf. If you go the other way, Cairn Wraith, Tomb Banshee, Lord Ex, Dreadblade, KoS and Torment = 530pts. 6 cairn wraiths are a measly 360pts. I think lifting the hero cap would help us with getting sufficient hero support when we need it. Again it's a pipe dream that won't happen so 🤷♂️. Edited August 12, 2019 by Tropical Ghost General Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Bob Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said: Not doing mortal wounds in addition to damage is also painful. So many armies now get mortals in addition to other damage and extra hits. There was plenty of times where another 1-3 wounds would have killed the target, but the 6's for mortals didn't help to take it over the edge. So early AoS was plagued by mortal wound spam that the Devs supposedly clamped down on it. Yet here we are back in that mess. I can’t quite figure out if they backslid by accident or were trying to make sure the more sticky units do not bog down the game play. The old rules on mystic shield and some people’s re-rolls really broke the game. I’m not too happy with the decision (years ago) to pull out mortals from FNP. It devalued invulnerable saves without a point discount. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said: It's how all negative modifiers used to work, because 4+ is a successful hit, but then the -1 modifier turns it into a 3, which makes it fail. Same thing goes for blades re-rolls with a torment if they are at -1 to hit. Overall it's a lot of points, but what other options do we really have 🤷♂️? Yeesh, I have definitely been playing the re-rolls wrong. Was that in a FAQ? This is where the game has serious rule bloat and could use a simplification. As for the other options, I guess it boils down to intent. I've never used Olynder or Kurdoss as I haven't seen them being worth it on paper, which is why I'm curious to hear how you're using them. Does Olynder get off spells without having any modifiers to her casting? Does she survive to cause the mortals? Is Kurdoss a better assassin than 10 Blades/10 Harridans/8 Myrmourns/5 Hexwraiths? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 5 hours ago, dmorley21 said: As for the other options, I guess it boils down to intent. I've never used Olynder or Kurdoss as I haven't seen them being worth it on paper, which is why I'm curious to hear how you're using them. Hello, I have only tested them recently giving them a try and was pleasantly surprised. Olynder is a good comparaison to other lvl2 spellcaster and is respectable in combat. The spell is huge when it goes off. The mortals are more a "gotcha" aura the ennemy has to enter to be effective. Kurdoss however was a total bruiser. Stole CPs, gave it to me, tanked -2 rend attacks, and killed a lot of ennemies with his criticalstrike mechanics and his own -2 rend 5 attacks. Very good, i clearly underestimated him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 6 hours ago, dmorley21 said: could use a simplification That's why they've started changing it to be just reroll hits, to speed things up and make it less complicated, only issue is that they haven't bothered amending the older books of AoS 2.0 Lady O is a pure mortal wound assassin, but the range is short. With reaping scythe she becomes half decent in combat. Her warscroll spell is awesome but she is a priority target as soon as she hits the board. If you don't use her aggressively then your not getting her points cost back. She becomes a little bit gross in a double execution horde list as the general as well, only issue there is that SHs suck plums at decent and consistent offensive output. 6 hours ago, dmorley21 said: Is Kurdoss a better assassin Yes, because of the base size. He has a smaller footprint and a natural 6+ death save, which other units don't. And his -2 rend often reduces stuff to a 6+ or no save. Again his damage is spikey but he'll often do enough to take out those smaller to midsized heroes in a single turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 9 hours ago, Evil Bob said: So early AoS was plagued by mortal wound spam 100% agree. At Blackout, there was so much mortals that it becomes a bit of a arms race to see who can produce the most. Armies that have no counter to mortals just die instantly. I'm glad death units can sometimes get access to a mortal wound save, but not happy that so many other armies get either/and multiple options and at a lower roll value as well. I would be happy if they made them super sparse again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 Its been a little demoralizing watching the power creep. Pretty inevitable as its their business plan to sell models though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordneylon Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) Dear Friends, I want to start playing nighthaunt army. I play in a semi-competitive enviorement. I have soulwars minis. Which is your advice to expand to 2000 points? My target is to have a balanced 2k army list that I can have fun, learn de army and win from time to time. (which heroes? 2*20 rasps + 1*10 grimghast as battleline is ok? Is black coach worth in a semi-competitive enviorement? Etc.) Thanks for your advice! Fran Edited August 15, 2019 by Lordneylon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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