AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Tropical Ghost General]

OK spooky team. I ran my Black Coach is a three 2k games the other day and while it was OK, it whiffed in combat and I was having good dice rolls, it's just that it's damage potential is so meh. And I know that it's more of a support unit but nearly all of it's levels of power relate to it's own combat prowess, which is really lack luster. At 280pts I feel it's too expensive and not the behemoth that the army needs, especially without the hero keyword (which won't happen anytime soon). Now the mourngul is also currently a bad choice due to it's overall damage potential and points cost and super multi-nerfed warscroll.

So what options do we have for big monsters that can go toe to toe with other big monsters, unfortunately none, but what we can do is create 'fake behemoths'. Now by 'fake behemoth' this is using a super small unit, that is buffed up to make it a viable big monster, for the similar points costs of a big monster. So I want to see some suggestions for potential 'fake behemoths' from the rest of you and while I wait here is my first suggestion....

• 12 x Myrmourn Banshees
• 1 x Spirit Torment
• (330pts total for the 'fake behemoth')
• plus 1 x Vampire Lord (ally) in your army
• plus 1 x Lord Ex with Gildanbane relic.
• (+220pts of extra heroes that can benefit the rest of the army as well)

So here is how the combo works. You take the VL as an ally and use his command ability on the banshees. It lasts until your next hero phase, so potentially 2 rounds of combat with +1 attack. The banshees then have 12 wounds, 24 attacks (at -2 rend with D3 damage). That's a gross amount of damage potential, with an average of 10-11 attacks getting through with the torments re-rolls. The unit is small enough that everyone will be able to get into combat and to keep in range of the torments buffing auras for re-rolls and death saves. The torment can heal the banshees up (as long as 3 models are killed somewhere on the board in that turn) as well as provide additional damage, taking the total amount of average damage up to 11-12 attacks getting all the way through, at -2 rend D3 damage. and bringing the average wound count for the 'fake behemoth' to 17 wounds. So for 330pts, you can have a 17 wound 'fake monster' that does an average of 22-24 damage in a turn of combat, that also has a 6+ death save and can partly heal itself. Now to add extra flavour into the mix, if you use my favour combo of Lord Ex and Gildanbane, you can have him accompany the behemoth and charge into any big monster first, he will negate any relic such as doppelganger or ethereal amulet, which then allows your 'fake behemoth' to be able to do some serious damage if it gets the 10+ charge. The only downside is the torments 6" move compared to the banshees 8" move. It makes this 'fake behemoth' fairly slow but it can be worked around to not be too much of an issue.

So that's my first 'fake behemoth' combo. It's 330pts and requires a further 220pts of support heroes to turn it into a super, horrendously gross machine of death. If you take a few extra CP for charge re-rolls with cogs up, you'll be able to mince through anything (as long as the dice gods don't abandon you). 

[Binkbinkplx]

Looking for advice or comments about a 2k list I'm looking at!

• Reikenor The Grimhailer - Lifestealer
• Guardian of Souls - Shademist
• Vampire Lord (Ally)
• Spirit Torment
• Dreadblade Harrow (General) RotS, Midnight Tome, Shademist
• Grimghast Reapers x30
• Chainrasp Horde x30
• Chainrasp Horde x10
• Bladegheist Revenants x15
• Myrmourn Banshees x8
• Chronomantic Cogs
• Aethervoid Pendulum
• Extra CPs - 2
• Comes in at 1890/2000

Plan is to Underworld the Revenants and Spirit Torment, Buff the Reapers with Shademist, Mystic, Vamp CA. and whatever useful Realm spells i get, then teleport shannigans them where I need them with the Harrow. I don't want to get the Harrow into combat which is why I didn't go with an offense Artifact like Balefire or Gildebane. The GoS will go with the 30 Horde and Reik to offer split pressure. Banshees, and Vamp will follow the reapers to offer a second Hammer and more regen/buffs. 10 Horde just sit on home objective and try not to draw attention. Can always use Harrow to get back home quick with a hammer. Pendulum is to give some more MW output for Reik after he drops Cogs.

Looking for advice on other artifacts to think about, alternatives to maybe the Banshees+Pendulum?

Thank you guys!

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Binkbinkplx it looks decent but only thing I see it might have trouble with is the big monster/relic combo. What is the plan for facing that sort of thing with the list? 

[Binkbinkplx]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@Binkbinkplx it looks decent but only thing I see it might have trouble with is the big monster/relic combo. What is the plan for facing that sort of thing with the list? 

This has been a main thought for me too. Reik with a Pendulum is good for things weak against MWs, esp if I can get the double turn of 2d6 with it (Cast it bottom of a turn for immediate dmg, and then it immediately does damage again at top of next round), and against monsters weak against Rend I can have the Banshees with atleast +1 attack from Vamp?

Think its worth throwing a Gildebane on the Spirit Torment or Harrow just incase? Open to ideas for sure.

[Tropical Ghost General]

 

45 minutes ago, Binkbinkplx said:

Open to ideas for sure.

Getting the pendulum to go off twice on a target unit is incredibly difficult in practice, but it is great at potentially taking a big nasty down a few level on it's degrading chart. Also to get it going off twice you have to sacrifice getting a double turn which more often than not is super strong and often game winning. 

I am a massive fan of Gildanbane on the Lord Ex as he's the tankiest of all our heroes and gives additional -1 to hit against heroes (and I've mentioned that point on nearly every post recently 😂). The issue is that it ties you to Chamon realm and none of the other relics really suit us very well. But we only really have 1 model that can deal a good amount of damage on it's own in combat and that's Kurdoss. So being able to multi-charge a doppelganger cloaked monster with 2 decent units is one ways of over coming the effects of the cloak, trouble is we need large squads to deal decent damage, but getting 2 x 30 grims into combat with a single big based monster is not possible. I've tried a lot of different combos and different ways to deal with doppelganger cloaked monsters and annoyingly Gildanbane is the only surefire way of over coming it. And as so many people are using either doppelganger or ethereal amulet we need to have an effective counter and Gildanbane does that. 

The other issue with Gildanbane is if you face an opponent who doesn't really have any broken relic combos, as Gildanbane becomes a wasted relic slot at that point but for me I'd rather take that risk than have a VLoZD that my big swarm of grims can't touch without taking some serious casualties before even getting a chance to strike back.

[Binkbinkplx]

2 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

 

Getting the pendulum to go off twice on a target unit is incredibly difficult in practice, 

From my understanding, if I summon the pendulum and move it into base to base contact with whatever I want, then no matter what that monster is going to be hit twice in the situation I described. Since the Pendulum reads anything within 1” of the Pendulum at the end of its movement. So even if my opponent gets to pick the Pendulum to move ( ie I go first ) the opponent can either move it over its monster, thus triggering it, or not move it at all ( which means moving it 0” ) so it would trigger anyway, 

and I’ll probly put Gildenbane on my Spirit Torment to hit a monster with the 15 Revenants and Torment to try and Gank it. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Binkbinkplx it's fully possible to get it to go off twice but it does require a fair bit of set up and also you have to leave the target unit well alone, no engaging with other magic or with combat as they can remove bodies or pile in to get out of range. They can also remove the necessary bodies to be out of range when removing the initial casualties from the first round of mortal wounds. I love the pendulum, I used to have it as an auto include against my Khorne friend, as he couldn't dispel it,bit felt a fair swap for not being able to unbind his prays 😂. 

 

[Binkbinkplx]

Thoughts on dropping the Banshees, Adding the Lord Ex with Gildenbane, bumping 30 Horde to 40, and changing 10 Rasps to 3 Spirit Hosts? I only have 40 Horde and hate to buy 10 more but can if you think 10 Horde > 3 Hosts for baby sitting a home objective

[Tropical Ghost General]

54 minutes ago, Binkbinkplx said:

hate to buy 10 more

Don't take my advice as gospel, not by a long shot. Play some games with your original list that you posted, and see where the weak spots are before making changes. It maybe that it works perfectly for your meta or it maybe that it doesn't work at all. 

Recently I took my Black Coach out on it's first proper outing and it whiffed badly. It has some potential and some uses but not in one of my gaming groups, as it's too competitive as a group and I'm already taking 200pts in extra CP, so taking 280pts on a model that isn't pulling it's weight doesn't make it a viable choice. In one of my less competitive gaming groups it will work well.  

The main trick is to test and tweak and test and tweak. Recently I've been running really large drops armies (12-15+ drops) with lots of multi small units of 10-12 to a unit. It let's me see how well they perform in tiny groups and during games it also let's me see where they're weaknesses and strengths are, such as unit longevity, how many are required in a squad to help them survive into the next round, without needing to waste CP on inspiring presence, while at the same time not be too large a unit to be considered a priority threat target.

In my meta through my own testing I've found that max unit size isn't the best option, even though it's the cheapest, because how units perform when in buff auras from heroes compared with how units perform when running solo is like day and night. So in order to keep my units performing at peak level throughout the entire game I don't take 30 grims I take 20, I don't take 20 blades I take 10-15, because the flexibility it offers during gameplay while still keeping within buff bubbles incredibly easily. I'd much rather have 10 blades attacking with re-rolls that are all in range to attack, than having 20 blades that don't get re-rolls and only 10-15 are in range to attack. 

TL:DR : Don't buy more stuff or copy lists without doing your own tests. 

[Binkbinkplx]

29 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

TL:DR : Don't buy more stuff or copy lists without doing your own tests. 

Haha Don't worry, Ive done a TON of testing. Just trying to get some other opinions.

I found a similiar issue with the Black Coach, I don't take it at all in its current state, Also don't run Revenants over 15. I haven't come down from the 30 Reapers yet because them seem to be doing really well for me at 30. Already dropped Lady O just because of how fast she dies.

The real odd ball for me is the Banshees to be honest. On paper them seem like everything I want, but Im having issues getting them to work right in games. the 18" unbind instead of 30" just sucks, and they are SO damn squishy. Only way ive found to get more attacks out of them is with the Vamp. Don't think ive ever got a solid buff out of the unbind yet or the endless dispell.

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, Binkbinkplx said:

real odd ball for me is the Banshees

I ran a combo for a while of torment as General with RotSH and midnight tome and shackles. The torment casts shackles, the banshees eat it, take D3 mortal wounds, the torment uses RotSH to revive D3 models back. Then the torment follows the banshees and becomes a murder train. Trouble was my torment general was priority target. 

So recently I've gone for dreadblade general, lots of spare CP. VL to give extra attacks. Dreadblade teleports the buffed banshees, the torment babysitter then appears next to them from underworlds. Then the banshees and torment can reroll charges. 

I would be happier paying a higher unit cost for myrmourns, blades and harridans if they could have 2 wounds. 

[MrRoff]

On a totally diffrent topic, what kind of varnish do you guys use to keep your ghostly bois paint to stay and not tear and wear after all the games with them?

[CaptainSoup]

10 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

On a totally diffrent topic, what kind of varnish do you guys use to keep your ghostly bois paint to stay and not tear and wear after all the games with them?

It's a manner of preference. You got a matte varnish (no shine), gloss varnish (all the shine, stronger coat of protection) and satin varnish (part gloss part matte). Depending on what you're trying to do for your models depends on what kind of varnish you want to use. If you're asking about brands, I use either the Army Painter spray can varnish or the Vallejo paint on varnish. I choose these brands mostly because it is easy to use and the brands are reputable. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by CaptainSoup
Grammar errors

[Sleboda]

When I started painting Warhammer stuff in the mid-80s, I used gloss varnish followed by Testors Dull Coat. That worked great.

 

For the last 20 years, though, I simply don't varnish and just take care with my models. The paint jobs don't get changed by the varnish, and I'm not suffering from chips (plastic is much less likely to chip than old metal models).

[Amun_Ra]

A quick question on our Wave of Terror rule that came up today that I am sure will have been answered before but I cannot find.

Disclaimer! - My group is relatively new to AOS, while I have always been interested my friends were put off by the end of the old world so my gaming experience has only been minimal but I am now getting some games in having twisted a few arms!

Today I got a unit of Spirit hosts into combat with a wave of terror roll and my hits rolled hot and did enough wounds so that my opponent was able to take the charged unit out of combat(they were strung out and so fell out of 3" away)

As far as we could see, this meant my unit was stranded as I could not pile in, and I wanted to check that this was right?

Thanks

[mrbedlam]

Yes, if they don't have anyone close enough to pile in too then they aren't in combat anymore and don't get another combat round.

[Tropical Ghost General]

6 hours ago, Amun_Ra said:

wanted to check that this was right?

So WoT allows you a free pile in as well as your charge. As we have the fly keyword we can pile in over models, as long as you remain closer to the model you are piling into (so basically hop over the enemy model and land on the other side).

Rules for charging state that you have to finish within half an inch of your target, but in larger units only 1 model has to finish within 0.5". So when you roll your 10+ take into consideration that as it's a free attack, you don't have to make everyone be fully in range, if it means that when you pile in the 2nd time that what is essentially a 6" pile in let's you engage enemies that would have originally been out of reach. Mus

Now rules state that every model that can pile in and attack must do so, which is why how you choose to pile in and attack on your free WoT attack is very important, because otherwise it can leave you stranded with no enemy to engage. It is often more beneficial to only have half your unit engage if it guarantees that they'll all get to attack in the main round of combat. 

Now rules also state that if a unit has charged a unit that they get to pile in 3" to the nearest enemy. If you kill the unit or kill enough that you are no longer in range, you still get to pile in. This is because WoT happens in the charging phase, whereas the standard pile in happens in the combat phase. So if you are out of range or have no enemy left to attack, you still get a 3" pile in move towards the nearest enemy unit because you made a successful charge. 

Other factors to consider with WoT is whether you think it's worth not going all out with the free attack, which other combats you have going on, etc... It's a gross and broken and OP army mechanic and waaaaay too spikey as well imo. 

[Amun_Ra]

Ok cheers. Thought that might be the case.

[Gothicwaltz]

My nephew recently caught Warhammer fever, and he's interested in Nighthaunts. I picked up the paint set with the glaivewraiths (yay drummer!), but that's it so far. I've set a benchmark of 500 points, and would like to get him what he needs to play for Christmas. What would you recommend?

[dmorley21]

On 11/29/2018 at 7:40 AM, Tropical Ghost General said:

OK spooky team. I ran my Black Coach is a three 2k games the other day and while it was OK, it whiffed in combat and I was having good dice rolls, it's just that it's damage potential is so meh. And I know that it's more of a support unit but nearly all of it's levels of power relate to it's own combat prowess, which is really lack luster. At 280pts I feel it's too expensive and not the behemoth that the army needs, especially without the hero keyword (which won't happen anytime soon).

Just curious, since you've actually played with it, how different do you think giving it the "hero" keyword would be?

On 11/30/2018 at 11:01 AM, Tropical Ghost General said:

The main trick is to test and tweak and test and tweak. Recently I've been running really large drops armies (12-15+ drops) with lots of multi small units of 10-12 to a unit. It let's me see how well they perform in tiny groups and during games it also let's me see where they're weaknesses and strengths are, such as unit longevity, how many are required in a squad to help them survive into the next round, without needing to waste CP on inspiring presence, while at the same time not be too large a unit to be considered a priority threat target.

In my meta through my own testing I've found that max unit size isn't the best option, even though it's the cheapest, because how units perform when in buff auras from heroes compared with how units perform when running solo is like day and night. So in order to keep my units performing at peak level throughout the entire game I don't take 30 grims I take 20, I don't take 20 blades I take 10-15, because the flexibility it offers during gameplay while still keeping within buff bubbles incredibly easily. I'd much rather have 10 blades attacking with re-rolls that are all in range to attack, than having 20 blades that don't get re-rolls and only 10-15 are in range to attack. 

TL:DR : Don't buy more stuff or copy lists without doing your own tests. 

How do you like running an MSU style list? I know one like that recently won a tournament in Sweden. It seems like a good way to get board control, deepstrike, and have more options to get the Wave of Terror.

Also, I wish testing was more of an option for me. But, reading actual reports is probably the next best thing.

[Tropical Ghost General]

14 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

how different do you think giving it the "hero" keyword would be?

It's a great buff unit. Having the hero keyword gives it death saves and let's it give death saves to other units. It also gives it the option to take some of the more decent big monster relics, such as doppelganger cloak or relics that increases the rend or damage output, etc... 

19 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

How do you like running an MSU style list?

I love it. It offers a lot of flexibility and it forces your opponent to split attacks. As I've previously mentioned, if you take a big horde and your healing spell fails, then those big hordes get whittled down very quickly, as your opponent has less targets to focus it's spells and shooting on before it even gets into combat. Our high bravery also means that smaller squads are generally immune to running from battleshock, which is super handy. 

At the moment I'm running this as a 2k list (see attached pic). It's working well. The extra CP is a must as it offers lots of options for moving shenanigans with the dreadblade general or charging re-rolls for WoT attempts. Having the 3 threats of myrmourns, grims and blades gives lots of options depending on what my opponent decides to bring. The only change I might make is swapping Lady O for Reik and pendulum endless spell. 

[Keith]

Knight of Shrouds vs Vampire Lord ally?

 

I like my Knight of Shrouds , but the Vampire Lord seems to winning me over.

I run Reikenor the Grimhailer for the cool factor already , so the Knight of Shrouds might get replaced with an ally.

 

What do you think ?

 

Knight of Shrouds

1) cool model(GOOD)

2) Command ability needs to wholly within 18" (BAD)

3) Deathless spirits (death save for units wholly within 12" and for himself) (GOOD)

4) Ethereal (GOOD)

5) needs to kill a hero to heal himself (BAD)

 

Vampirelord

1) heal d3 to 3 units @12" (GOOD)

2) chalice to heal himself d6 (GOOD)

3) slay any model and heal a wound. (GOOD)

4) command ability 15" (not wholly within) (GOOD)

5) No death save as he is an ally (BAD)

6) Vampire can cast Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolts and unbind one spell. ( GOOD) ( edit added this)

Edited December 5, 2018 by Keith

[Tropical Ghost General]

29 minutes ago, Keith said:

What do you think ?

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Only points you've missed are that the VL is a wizard, so while it doesn't know spooky spell lore, it can still cast the basic 2, cast any endless spells and also unbind. And you missed that his command ability lasts until your next hero phase, so generally spend 1CP for two rounds of combat compared to KoSos who spends 2CP for two rounds of combat. 

[Keith]

22 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Only points you've missed are that the VL is a wizard, so while it doesn't know spooky spell lore, it can still cast the basic 2, cast any endless spells and also unbind. And you missed that his command ability lasts until your next hero phase, so generally spend 1CP for two rounds of combat compared to KoSos who spends 2CP for two rounds of combat. 

Yeah , thanks , good point ,  I added that the vampire is a wizard.

[Keith]

A couple of things.

 

1) does anyone have a good scan of the Warscroll for the Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass ?

I have a few photos , but not a really good scan.

 

2) Does anyone know the odds of rolling 10+ on 2d6 with a reroll ? I think it's maybe around 40% ?