AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 minute ago, dmorley21 said:

Do you think Jaws is better than Gravetide?

It depends massively on your play style. Gravetide is OK, but for me if I use Reik and get the jaws off, it then requires a natural 9 to dispel, which isn't easy, the jaws gives more damage potential and has the psychological fear factor on your opponent and both the jaws and gravetide give the minus to bravery, so you could combine them to bravery bomb.

 

5 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Harridans without buffs do better than Blades on turns when Blades don't charge

I am always a bit sceptical on mathhammer. Yes it is useful, but the dice gods really have not care for stats ?. I think if you are using either blades or harridans without any buffs, then you aren't utilising them properly. They are both expensive and flimsy choices, so they need the support to justify their points cost. Also if you aren't charging blades, again, you aren't using them properly. Also the blades battalion, using a KoSos with the pendant artefact, gives them an 11" move, with 4+, 5++ save, with the options for 2 extra attacks if they charge, that battalion is just too good not to use, when compared to the points tax that we have with the others we have access to. In my opinion the banshee battalion just doesn't quite offer the same synergy. I do think that the ideal pairings for harridans is still being tweaked and worked on by someone somewhere, and someone will crack it and they will then see a lot of play on the table. I also think the models look great as well.

 

17 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

But still, an 80 pt caster with a shooting attack has uses.

@dmorley21Do you think a tomb banshee is a better choice over chainghasts? They have the same wounds total, but the damage potential and shooting attacks of the chainghasts seem to be much better as well. Also pair them up with blades and you have a cheap option for the re-rolls as well for them, as the blades are the only unit that don't need to torment to link the chain in order to benefit from the chainghasts. It also frees up a hero slot as well.

[Nevar]

6 hours ago, Guardian said:

Hexwraiths special rule has so much potential, but its very limited due to it being only in the movement phase.

Also, don't forget this applies to when they fallback out of combat, or move.  So you can run past a unit you are not going to engage, cause mortal wounds to them, and then charge someone else.

Likewise, they only need to pass over a single model as it is counted based on how many Hexwraiths and not how many enemy models.  I saw someone saying that makes it less good, but it is a sliding scale.  If you have only 5 Hexwraiths and you are trying to jump over a horde of 40 enemy models... only rolling 5 dice sucks.  But if you are like me and have 15 Hexwraiths, and you are just clipping the edge of a single enemy model in a larger unit as you run past... I get to roll 15 dice looking for 5+ to cause mortal wounds on the run before I even decide where to charge.  This allows me to potentially cripple units or heroes before I commit the charge of my Hexwraiths giving more options tactically than if it took place on the charge for instance.  Especially with the Pendant, you can really make use of this rule.  You can assume 2-3 Mortal Wounds in your calculations, and I have often gotten 5-6 Mortal Wounds.  That can literally mean the plain removal of foot heroes in the movement phase, or more often, reducing behemoths down their damage charts before combat ensues.

The Spectral Hunters rule working in the Movement phase is what makes it tactically useful.  Likewise I think Hexwraiths become -more- efficient the more Hexwraiths you have, and while I am only one anecdote I have not lost a single game in which my massed Hexwraith blob made up the core of my force.

This is not to say Hexwraiths are the best unit or even hold a candle to Grimghasts, but I have 20 Hexwraiths from my AoS1.0 Nighthaunt days, plus 18 Spirit Hosts from when I didn't have all the new options.  I want to keep getting use out of them, and perhaps I have a bit more experience with these 'old' Nighthaunt units that a lot of the new Nighthaunt recruits who showed up with the new models and new rules.

[relic456]

3 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Looking at the current previews for the new Beasts of Chaos battletome, what are people worried about with this revamped faction?

I don't really have any major concerns regarding BoC, I think Nighthaunt ignores a lot of their strengths and can capitalize on their weaknesses.  We ignore the entire Rend/Armor debuff side of their gameplan (which looks like it'll be a significant portion of it), we dodge the Order specific bonuses, and don't really have any Monsters for them to take advantage of.  The BoC's speed also works against the relatively small initial range of their Herdstone.  We can also compete on mobility with Fly and deep striking.  Finally, they traditionally have low Bravery and don't do too well in the Battleshock phase and certain NH builds can take advantage of that.

Edit: That being said it's very early days and we don't have all the info yet!

Edited September 13, 2018 by relic456

[Tropical Ghost General]

8 minutes ago, Nevar said:

have 15 Hexwraiths, and you are just clipping the edge of a single enemy model

That's some jinky movement tricks going on there, to get 15 horses to all jump over the same couple of dudes is pretty sneaky tactics. ?

I do think that the anniversary GoS spell combined with hexwraiths makes them interestingly good, as is will allow them to fall out of combat up to 18" and still charge the same turn.

11 minutes ago, Nevar said:

I have 20 Hexwraiths from my AoS1.0 Nighthaunt days, plus 18 Spirit Hosts from when I didn't have all the new options.

Preach it brother ? , ain't that the truth. So how many do you find work as the optimal unit size. I have never run more than 10 and they get targeted and minced in the games that I bring them. Do I need to pump up those rookie numbers then?

[AverageBoss]

And remember, Hexwraiths don't actually need to pass over and land on the other side of a unit/model for a chance at damage. You can actually move up just enough to clip a base, then move right back to where you started (other than in a retreat) if that is a more advantageous position. I have heard the suggestion that their ability should work every time they move, rather than just in the movement phase. That is probably way too good though.

[Undeadly]

Speaking of Hexwraiths, does anybody else prefer to use Black Knight bodies and Skeleton arms instead of the Scythe/Reaper bodies? Considering their new lore where they are depicted as Knights, I think that it works.

[Neck-Romantic]

I initially wanted to depict then as ghost-painted black knights but felt that the scythes would better match cairn/grimghast/Reikenor aesthetic

Edited September 13, 2018 by Neck-Romantic

[knightish]

Slightly odd question:

Lady Olynder, is she a good choice as general, specifically looking at her Cmd ability? 
Or do you think you would be better off going say if NOS with Ruler of the spirit host? 

My concern is that Lady O requires a CMD point to use hers, though she does AOS rez, and you can do it multiple times a turn to multi res in an AOE.
However ROTSH is free, but only Range 9, and only for 1 unit. 

Can't decide which way to go on it, anyone have an opinion / experience on these options?

Looking at specifically for this list: 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Leaders
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (240)
- General
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (140)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
Dreadblade Harrow (100)

Battleline
5 x Hexwraiths (160)
5 x Hexwraiths (160)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)

Units
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)

Behemoths
Black Coach (280)

Battalions
Deathriders (130)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
 

[dmorley21]

13 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I am always a bit sceptical on mathhammer. Yes it is useful, but the dice gods really have not care for stats ?. I think if you are using either blades or harridans without any buffs, then you aren't utilising them properly. They are both expensive and flimsy choices, so they need the support to justify their points cost. Also if you aren't charging blades, again, you aren't using them properly. Also the blades battalion, using a KoSos with the pendant artefact, gives them an 11" move, with 4+, 5++ save, with the options for 2 extra attacks if they charge, that battalion is just too good not to use, when compared to the points tax that we have with the others we have access to. In my opinion the banshee battalion just doesn't quite offer the same synergy. I do think that the ideal pairings for harridans is still being tweaked and worked on by someone somewhere, and someone will crack it and they will then see a lot of play on the table. I also think the models look great as well.

 

@dmorley21Do you think a tomb banshee is a better choice over chainghasts? They have the same wounds total, but the damage potential and shooting attacks of the chainghasts seem to be much better as well. Also pair them up with blades and you have a cheap option for the re-rolls as well for them, as the blades are the only unit that don't need to torment to link the chain in order to benefit from the chainghasts. It also frees up a hero slot as well.

I agree about mathhammer not usually working out in actual games, which is why I focused on what they could do without buffs. Chances are, even if you play well, you'll be attacking without buffs at various times - at least if you're playing a good opponent. And I'd argue it's quite likely your Bladegheists will participate in more combats where they didn't just charge then where they did - all of your opponent's phases, and then you opponent can block you in so you can't retreat and charge.

Shroudguard is probably the better, more well-rounded battalion. Honestly the most competitive Nighthaunt list would probably feature three units of 30 Reapers. Shroudguard would be next. But I think Shrieker Host can be right there too. At least, that's my hope.

I haven't compared the Tomb Banshee to the Chainghasts - they don't mesh with my army's fluff. Same with the Spirit Torment. I think the Tomb Banshee isn't great, but with the midnight tome she's a cheap spell caster and if she's up against a low bravery army she can cause a lot of damage.

[Neck-Romantic]

RotSH's is a command ability, and thus requires a command point. All command abilities do now.

Unless I've been horribly mislead...

[El Syf]

44 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

RotSH's is a command ability, and thus requires a command point. All command abilities do now.

Unless I've been horribly mislead...

Is it not a command trait? Thus no command points needed.  haven't got the book to hand but could have sworn it's a trait.

[relic456]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

RotSH's is a command ability, and thus requires a command point. All command abilities do now.

Unless I've been horribly mislead...

Unfortunately you've been horribly mislead. Ruler of the Spirit Hosts (pg. 54) and the other command traits do not cost command points to use.

[Neck-Romantic]

Ooh... so theres nothing that says Olynder HAS to be your general when taken; so pump out her ressurection AoE while simultaeneously using RotSH to bring back hordes of Hosts/Hexes!

[Bottler Barnes]

10 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Ooh... so theres nothing that says Olynder HAS to be your general when taken; so pump out her ressurection AoE while simultaeneously using RotSH to bring back hordes of Hosts/Hexes!

No she can only use her command ability if she's the general (doesn't have to be though).

[relic456]

Hmm yeah it sounds like @Neck-Romantic might be confusing the Ruler of the Spirit Hosts command trait (pg. 54, can be given to your general if they are not a named unit, has no command point cost) and Lady Olynder's command ability No Rest for the Wicked (found on her warscroll, requires her being your general, costs a command point to use).

[Neck-Romantic]

So it does. Damnit.

(At work so didnt have the book to check these things)

All things considered if the *trait* takes no command point I would give it the edge in certain situations as I usually find myself starved for command points

Edited September 14, 2018 by Neck-Romantic

[Kirjava13]

I would say unless you are going to have Olynder near more than one unit of Spirit Hosts and/or Hexwraiths, you are better off making someone else your general and getting RotSH. It doesn't cost a command point and it isn't a total waste if you use it on one-wound models.

[Nevar]

On 9/13/2018 at 9:32 AM, Tropical Ghost General said:

That's some jinky movement tricks going on there, to get 15 horses to all jump over the same couple of dudes is pretty sneaky tactics. ?

I do think that the anniversary GoS spell combined with hexwraiths makes them interestingly good, as is will allow them to fall out of combat up to 18" and still charge the same turn.

Preach it brother ? , ain't that the truth. So how many do you find work as the optimal unit size. I have never run more than 10 and they get targeted and minced in the games that I bring them. Do I need to pump up those rookie numbers then?

In my experience, it is difficult to get more than 10 or 11 into melee and swinging.  This makes it tempting to just use 10, but you also have to account for casualties, and the more Hexwraiths the better Spectral Hunters is.  I run 15 horsemen because it makes sure they keep their melee kick well after the initial charge, and it makes sure I do not see them get wiped out in one turn.  You can generally count on returning around 4 horses a hero phase with Ruler of the Spirit Host + Spirit Lure.  If you are particularly keen the Beacon of Nagashizzar ensures a minimum of three hexwraiths returned per hero phase.  That is minimum 6 armor 4+/6++ wounds recovered per battle round assuming no Spirit Torments are in play.  Additionally, you are very likely to get more, 33% chance to recover 3 Hexwraiths with the RotSH trait alone, plus the d6+3 from a beacon of Nagashizzar is always at least two hexwraiths.  You can basically assume you will revive around 4-5 Hexwraiths per hero phase between the Guardian of Souls and your General's RotSH.  If you happen to have a Black Coach around it only gets better.

My list is a Mounted Knight of Shrouds, Guardian of Souls, x15 Hexwraiths, and two units of minimum Spirit Hosts.  That comes in at exactly 1000 points.  I only place the Spirit Hosts in the underworld to tie up enemy units if they can, and the mKoS leads his Hexwraiths into the fray, though he stays back out of combat and baby sits the GoS while providing Deathless Spirits and Ruler of the Spirit Hosts.  Additionally I have the option of pulling my horses out of combat with the faction Command Ability to fish for Wave of Terror, though normally I opt for the +1 attack on the Hexwraiths.

The other Guardian of Souls spell could make this entire thing even better if it allows the Hexwraiths to charge after falling back, because it lets you Spectral Hunters over and over again and safetly fish for Wave of Terror.  I think I could try it in 2000 points by just doubling my list and swapping on Nightmare Lantern to the new lantern.

[Guardian]

What do you think of using small units of glaivewraiths as a third rank for attacking behind chainrasps.

they can also serve other utility roles like remote objective grabbing and character assasination?

[Neck-Romantic]

@Nevar

You could also try to work in a Black Coach, great synergy with what you have going

Edited September 15, 2018 by Neck-Romantic

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

they can also serve other utility roles like remote objective grabbing and character assasination?

If you are taking glaivewraiths then take the death stalkers battalion. Otherwise they don't pack enough punch to run outside of the battalion. They are really useful at holding/screening back table objectives, also at being those units on the board to then let other units RFTG. But if you are going to use them as a 3rd line rank of attack they still need to be able to make the charge and their slower movement doesn't help.

Personally I find that chainghasts are a better option to back up chainrasps, as they have more damage potential with the added shooting attacks, the same movement and melee range, potentially more attacks, have some rend and can add "a link to the chain". 

[Kirjava13]

RFTG? Not come across that one before.

[Tropical Ghost General]

33 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

RFTG? 

Sorry that's how I personally refer to the Underworld ability, should have not abrivated it ?. I played a lot of mega drive (or genesis if you are US based) as a kid (and as a grown up), and one game, Altered Beast, always started with a creepy (16 bit) voice saying "Rise from your grave", and I always forget what the proper wording of the ability is so I always refer to it as "Rise From The Grave" rather than the proper version of "From The Underworlds They Come". 

[dmorley21]

4 hours ago, Guardian said:

What do you think of using small units of glaivewraiths as a third rank for attacking behind chainrasps.

they can also serve other utility roles like remote objective grabbing and character assasination?

I'm not sure they're fast enough to be character assassins. As for utility roles, for 20 more points I'd rather take 10 Chainrasp Horde. They won't assassinate characters (though I'm not sure Stalkers could either) but they can grab/hold remote objectives and with 10 models can form miniature screens.

[Neck-Romantic]

Holy cr@p, Reikenor's entire body and scythe are only connected to the model via his one wrist holding the reigns to his steed. 

Ended up cutting some wraith-cloak bits off my glavewraiths from the starter set (which will never see the light of day) to make some additional stabilizer cloak strips connecting his body to the horse. No way his wrist was going to survive transport and table play, maybe not even painting

Edited September 16, 2018 by Neck-Romantic