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AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion


RuneBrush

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So with the placings from across the pond at NOVA are in. And also looking at the recent results at EGGS here in the UK, how does everyone feel that ghosts are doing overall in the tournament scene?

To me it seems that we are pretty middle of the road, we're not amazing but also at the same time we are not OP or broken either. We lack some elements that other armies can bring to the table, with no way to really counter them effectively and I don't think that helps us in certain match ups. We are not an easy faction to play successfully, and consistently successfully. I have won a fair few games with new ghosts and tbh they have all been when the 10+ charge has successfully gone off, but I have lost a lot more that I have won, and almost each loss has been in games that were so one sided that it was basically a struggle from the start, definitely not equal or balanced, but that has been down to mission type or realm type at times as well. I think the lack of summoning hurts and in my local meta a lot of summoning is about, and when we total up the points of units healed/summoned back at the end of the game, it's normally 500-1000pts extra that my opponent has brought onto the table, which is a big handicap to have to overcome, and it certainly feels like playing an underpointed army vs a fully costed army. I am positive that we can get some better results as time goes on, and as more f us ghost generals find the tricks and tactics that work for us as a faction, also as new stuff is released and new FAQs happen and the general meta shifts we might see some more positive results, but currently we have a difficult road ahead of us if we are going to see glory at the top tables again.

NOVA - 24th, 50th, 53rd, 55th, 57th, 84th out of 85.

EGGS - 17th, 18th, 36th out of 52.

Blackout - 1st, 13th, 21st, 43rd, 49th, 77th out of 94. (Remembering that 1st place was won by Mr. AoS himself Ben Johnson, so maybe not a true reflection of how we are placing overall as a faction.)

So what is everyone else's thoughts on this?

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I'm really starting to think after seeing more and more lists from tournaments just adopt the grimghast dominant force I'm beginning to think that we need to see much much more variety. There where no myrmourns in any list. No chainghasts very few black coaches. I really think we have an amazing toolkit to pull from and we havent really scratched the surface yet.

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I'm with you on that one @Smavo. My 1k list has grims, rasps, reik, torment, myrmourns and 4 endless spells. I've only had 3 outings with it and it's currently 3-0 with wins. There are some units in our battletome that I wouldn't use (spirits and hexwraiths) but that's more personally preference to my play style and my own opinions on their meagre warscrolls, others get good leverage out of them. I still think we are a fair bit away from discovering the proper killer combos though.

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I really do believe that the spirit hosts are still our most underrated unit. They always MW on a unmodified 6. Against some armys thats huge. Sylvaneth for example.

We are also a very hard army to play because of our high amount of drops. And we actually want it that way.

For every 2 units one can be deployed off field which is so huge. 

Rethinking how we deploy and seeing going second as what we want I think will help solve alot of issues.

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44 minutes ago, Smavo said:

spirit hosts are still our most underrated unit. They always MW on a unmodified 6.

I find that the 6's for mortals is not enough damage for their points though. When I used to run them in AoS 1.0, when they were pretty much the only choice, they were alright, but when they naturally hit on 5s and wound on 4s, with 0 rend, it's not great. On average a squad of 3 might do 3-4 damage + 3 mortal wounds. the 3-4 damage can get saved/ignored really easily due to the lack of rend. If your going against trees, then the -2 rend of myrmourn and torments are waaaaay more consistent at doing the damage required.

 

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@Tropical Ghost General

Myrnmourn can't fill the niche spirit hosts do, which is dealing MWs. Buffed up myrnmourns can deal more damage to some targets (mostly against someone without unmodifiable and no rerolls), but they also die to a weak breeze.

Myrnmourns per 100 points

vs 3+ unmodifiable reroll 1's -----> 0.7 wounds 

vs 3+ --- > 2,22 wounds

vs 2+ rerolling 1's --- > 1.4 wounds

vs 2+ ---- > 1.6 wounds

vs 1+ rerollin 1's --- > 0.8 wounds

Spirit hosts per 100 points

vs 3+ unmodifiable reroll 1's ----> 2.5 wounds

vs 3+ --- > 2.9 wounds

vs 2+ --- > 2.7 wounds

vs 2+ rerolling 1's -- > 2.6 wounds

vs 1+s rerolling 1's --- > 2.5 wounds

 

There is nothing more optimal in Nighthaunt's army against high armor  shenanigans than Spirit hosts. Myrnmourn will never outperform spirit hosts vs 1+ saves (specially rerolling ones). Buffed up with +1 to attacks they will perform close to SH against 2+ reroll 1's or 2+. And against 3+ they will perform better. But we could also buff spirit hosts to increase their MW's chance to a 27% (so instead of 2.5 wounds, it would be 4.04) once per battle.

 

If you just want damage potential against the targets where Myrnmourns outperform SH,  grimghast reapers or bladegheists (and more than likely harridans) will vastly outperform myrnmourn banshees, and they will have more bodies.

 

Edited by Keldaur
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16 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Would not an allied Vampire Lord be a better option than a KoS/KofoES for the same points?

Allies don't get access to the allegiance traits, so no death saves, no spell lore, no artefacts, etc... Yes the VLs CA is better than the KoS as it lasts longer, you get a natural spell caster, a fairly robust hero who can heal himself. It's a pretty solid choice taking a VL over a KoSoES. 

It's a really common choice for many ghost players to take a VL but personally I don't take one as I don't feel it's a good way to learn to over come your army's weaknesses by patching it up with allies, but that's just a personal opinion ?

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When I look for untapped power in the book, in terms of tournament winning lists or units, I look at the Shroudguard. The equivalent of having Feel no Pain on a super killy unit that can retreat and charge in the same turn seems amazing. Are Bladegheists battleline? No. Are they cheap? Not really. But I think they over come those things with their mobility, +3 to hit +3 wound stat line and their durability. I want to try a unit of 20 and a unit of 5 in the battalion. The unit of 20 gets a price discount and is the best way to use the KoS's extra attacks. That unit, if it charges, gets 4 attacks each at +3 +3 -1 1dmg. That is so good. 

I'm about to buy 3 boxes. I hope to put them on the table. I really think they will smash face.

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2 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

When I look for untapped power in the book, in terms of tournament winning lists or units, I look at the Shroudguard. The equivalent of having Feel no Pain on a super killy unit that can retreat and charge in the same turn seems amazing. Are Bladegheists battleline? No. Are they cheap? Not really. But I think they over come those things with their mobility, +3 to hit +3 wound stat line and their durability. I want to try a unit of 20 and a unit of 5 in the battalion. The unit of 20 gets a price discount and is the best way to use the KoS's extra attacks. That unit, if it charges, gets 4 attacks each at +3 +3 -1 1dmg. That is so good. 

I'm about to buy 3 boxes. I hope to put them on the table. I really think they will smash face.

I run Shroud Guard pretty much the same.  Consider the Pendant of the Fell Wind as your second artifact for the KoS, and you can let them jump even farther out of combat.

Also, Guardian of Souls can make the 20 Bladegeists extremely annoying to kill with his spell, and you can give him Soul Cage to make the hit back on your Bladegeists less damaging.

The only difference I play, is I use a foot KoS for the +1 to hit.  With KoS and GoS they have 3 attacks hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+, can be regenerated, have a 5++ after their 4+ Ethereal, can retreat and charge, can be either given Shademist to make less wounds find them, or can have their target hit by Soul Cage to give them a leg up.  If you can get a Chaingast or Spirit Torment into the mix you are rerolling your 2+ to hit.

I understand that +1 attack increases the damage potential of the combination with the mKoS, but I am the sort of player who prefers reliability over potential.  I all ones can happen, but a rerolled 2+ is much closer to an auto-hit than a rerolled 3+.

I have usually used the Spirit Torment for the rerolls because it is very likely three models will die, and his additional recursion is outstanding.  Give him the Midnight Tome and you have two wizards right in the mix with the Bladegeists to ensure you can keep Shademist or Soul Cage up even if the Guardian of Souls is busy raising the dead.  Or go with the Beacon of Nagashizzar to bring even more back and make the block nearly unshiftable.  It all depends on how much you assume you will want to 'phase through' the enemy lines into their backfield or not.  If they are going to be bouncing around and not duking it out in the center, you can easily trade out the Pendant for the Beacon and have best of both worlds.  If you want to be unable to be locked down, Pendant and Cogs are amazing for Bladegeists.

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3 hours ago, Nevar said:

I run Shroud Guard pretty much the same.  Consider the Pendant of the Fell Wind as your second artifact for the KoS, and you can let them jump even farther out of combat.

Also, Guardian of Souls can make the 20 Bladegeists extremely annoying to kill with his spell, and you can give him Soul Cage to make the hit back on your Bladegeists less damaging.

The only difference I play, is I use a foot KoS for the +1 to hit.  With KoS and GoS they have 3 attacks hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+, can be regenerated, have a 5++ after their 4+ Ethereal, can retreat and charge, can be either given Shademist to make less wounds find them, or can have their target hit by Soul Cage to give them a leg up.  If you can get a Chaingast or Spirit Torment into the mix you are rerolling your 2+ to hit.

I understand that +1 attack increases the damage potential of the combination with the mKoS, but I am the sort of player who prefers reliability over potential.  I all ones can happen, but a rerolled 2+ is much closer to an auto-hit than a rerolled 3+.

I have usually used the Spirit Torment for the rerolls because it is very likely three models will die, and his additional recursion is outstanding.  Give him the Midnight Tome and you have two wizards right in the mix with the Bladegeists to ensure you can keep Shademist or Soul Cage up even if the Guardian of Souls is busy raising the dead.  Or go with the Beacon of Nagashizzar to bring even more back and make the block nearly unshiftable.  It all depends on how much you assume you will want to 'phase through' the enemy lines into their backfield or not.  If they are going to be bouncing around and not duking it out in the center, you can easily trade out the Pendant for the Beacon and have best of both worlds.  If you want to be unable to be locked down, Pendant and Cogs are amazing for Bladegeists.

Can you report on the success of that battalion? On paper it seems very very good. If you build the right pieces around it, it seems like it can compete against most armies and compete in tournament settings. 

Also, my biggest question for you is what size units are you using? It seems hard to put together all the support pieces/other threats in an army that maxes out the 2 units. I was going to start with and test 20 and 5 Blades. 

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How does everyone feel about deathstalkers battallion? Every time I look through my book and see this battallion I have a dire need to want to build towards it. The fact you can mark an enemy unit and then drop onto them is amazing. + olynder in the list can make for some nasty shenanigans.

 

thoughts?

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7 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Can you report on the success of that battalion? On paper it seems very very good. If you build the right pieces around it, it seems like it can compete against most armies and compete in tournament settings. 

Also, my biggest question for you is what size units are you using? It seems hard to put together all the support pieces/other threats in an army that maxes out the 2 units. I was going to start with and test 20 and 5 Blades. 

I also think 20 and 5 Bladegeists are the way to go to leave you room for other things.  I have played around with the idea of 40 of them, but I do not own that many.  As to the success of it, I can report that I have had outstanding success with it, nearly unshiftable and mulches a lot of enemy units similarly to a Grave Guard block does.

The problem is, my reports are clearly skewed, as I also usually have 15 Hexwraiths that I swear by, and it is generally accepted that Hexwraiths are not very cost effective.  So as someone having extremely good success with what is considered less good units, I have to surmise that either everyone is wrong about Hexwraiths, or my local meta is not prepared to deal with Nighthaunt or are not competitive minded enough to build Tourney level lists.

Personally I think it could be very good, potentially even place in a tourney, but the other units you bring, the tourney rules and missions, if they are allowing realm spells, etc. all comes into play and I cannot account for all those variables.  NOVA just went off, and not one Nighthaunt player placed in the top 10.  Granted... all the Death players included Grimghasts and I would rate Bladegeists better than Grims.  I think it will take a little bit longer for the entire Nighthaunt codex to get run through it's paces and we will start getting a more conclusive idea on where this rates.   At the moment I do not see many lists anywhere with Bladegeists, though I reckon that is because they are the newest unit for Nighthaunt and everyone is still grappling with Grimghasts, Chainrasps, and all the fancy heroes.   Them drip feeding the Bladegeists to us over a month after initial release really reduced the hype for them I think.  Myrmourns were sold out for weeks, and they are more situational than Bladegeists, I think our Sword Bois just missed the initial hype wave and people like us need to buckle down and start testing them more.

8 hours ago, Dracothjay said:

How does everyone feel about deathstalkers battallion? Every time I look through my book and see this battallion I have a dire need to want to build towards it. The fact you can mark an enemy unit and then drop onto them is amazing. + olynder in the list can make for some nasty shenanigans.

 

thoughts?

It requires Glaivewraiths, and only effects one enemy target.  In my opinion one of the worst battalions in the book. Effects are nice, but unless you are playing against Nagash and you mark him for death... you are going to put that whole battalion into killing a single enemy unit that is likely less points than your battalion?  I dunno, if you already have the models in your army and you are basically just buying the artefact and CP then maybe, but I would not be caught dead with a Glaivewraith in any of my lists.

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I'm in the process of finishing my army, but can't find a lot of battle reports of Nighthaunt, so I'm asking  for opinions/experiences from some battlefield experienced generals here.

We're talking about 2000 pt matched play:

- Why nobody plays Dreadblade Harrows? Are they bad? Better options?

- Are 20 Grimghast Reapers enough or it's worth it to get the full 30 unit?

- Myrnmourn Banshees looks great, but are they worth it in an all comers list?

- Are Cogs mandatory on non- Deahtriders lists? 

- How may heroes are enough in a 2000 pts list? I find 3 too few, but 4 are tricky to get points for.

- Are 2-3 wizards/spellcasters enough?

I know a lot of these questions are hard to answer in a vacuum, but it will be very helpful to get some ideas about these units and spells.

Thanks in advance.

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