AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

Im planning to use mine as part of a 2 wave main battle line. 

Blades hit first and retreat passed combat to eat support heros while spirit hosts finish off the first unit

[ClockworkGeo91]

1 hour ago, ianob said:

Getting 20 models in with an 8" fly is not a huge deal even with 1" reach. The problem with running 10 or 15 is that they wont hurt what they kill very much, which means they'll get hit back harder, and your unit is smaller to start with = less models left to keep on fighting, and/or not enough models left to take advantage of retreat+charge next turn into a juicy easy pickings unit. Also getting the last 5 for almost half points makes taking 15 hella inefficient.

I think a unit of 10 is probably playable for flank objectives if you want to fill the battalion cheaply and/or need somewhere to shave points, but outside of the battalion 10 Grimghasts would do that job better. I wouldnt want to be putting 10 of them into a main line of battle.

Because they are cheaper and the range? Rerolling hits?

Bladeghiests can also reroll (near a torment) and can have 3 attacks each of your turns (retreat and re charge).

Grimghasts are cheaper and are battleline but Bladeghiests do not need to be discounted automatically.

[Dauzy]

2 hours ago, ianob said:

Getting 20 models in with an 8" fly is not a huge deal even with 1" reach. The problem with running 10 or 15 is that they wont hurt what they kill very much, which means they'll get hit back harder, and your unit is smaller to start with = less models left to keep on fighting, and/or not enough models left to take advantage of retreat+charge next turn into a juicy easy pickings unit. Also getting the last 5 for almost half points makes taking 15 hella inefficient.

I think a unit of 10 is probably playable for flank objectives if you want to fill the battalion cheaply and/or need somewhere to shave points, but outside of the battalion 10 Grimghasts would do that job better. I wouldnt want to be putting 10 of them into a main line of battle.

I will be interested by a "Tactica" thread with your point of view about this new Nighthaunt models

[GeneralZero]

I see the Bladegheist in several roles in a Death/NH army:

- as stand alone: 5 is not enough with so few wounds. I'd go at least 10 to 20 depending on your battle plan. In a harassment role, 10 is nice 15 more durable and 20 really hammer everything but expensive. at 10/15 it is a really annoying unit for the enemy. It can fly, can't be stuck in a melee (retrat and charge) and relly can do some net damage without buff.

- 15/20 in a Hammer role. Buff them and use them to hit the key enemies while your big blobs of other units or big heros advance (anvil role).

- shroudgar bataillon: I have to think about it. They become durable with a 5++. ATM, I'd go 15+10. I only have 20 for now meaning a third box. (20+10?). Or go full force at 20+20 for main line and build the whole army around it. I'm not sure yet if 10+10 at min investment will be enough. But this is a cheap bataillon and you got artefact and CP...

[relic456]

4 hours ago, ianob said:

 The problem with running 10 or 15 is that they wont hurt what they kill very much, which means they'll get hit back harder, and your unit is smaller to start with = less models left to keep on fighting, and/or not enough models left to take advantage of retreat+charge next turn into a juicy easy pickings unit. Also getting the last 5 for almost half points makes taking 15 hella inefficient.

I think a unit of 10 is probably playable for flank objectives if you want to fill the battalion cheaply and/or need somewhere to shave points, but outside of the battalion 10 Grimghasts would do that job better. I wouldnt want to be putting 10 of them into a main line of battle.

What about at 1000 points?  I was thinking of running something like the below but your comment about 10 Blades gave me pause, maybe worth switching some things around?

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spirit Drain
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (140)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
10 x Grimghast Reapers (140)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Total: 1000 / 1000
Wounds: 58

 

[ianob]

2 minutes ago, relic456 said:

What about at 1000 points?  I was thinking of running something like the below but your comment about 10 Blades gave me pause, maybe worth switching some things around?

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spirit Drain
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (140)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
10 x Grimghast Reapers (140)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Total: 1000 / 1000
Wounds: 58

 

1000 points is a whole different ball game. I'd probably drop a hero for another 10 Grimghasts myself (KoS probably) but that looks fine to me!

[Tropical Ghost General]

I've got 3 boxes (so far). Plan of running a unit of 20 and a unit of 10 in the shroudguard battalion, probably bulking up to 2 x 20. 

I ran a game using proxies, having 2 x 15 and 15 did hit well, and what @ianob said is exactly what happened to me, when they got hit back they melted fairly quickly, where as 20 would have kept them alive enough for me to heal them the next turn. It's just a shame that KoSos or Reikenor also doesn't benefit from the 5+ death save in the battalion ?.

I'm also working on a silly 2k list that is:- 1 x KoSos, 1 x GoS (anniversary model), 20 x Bladegheist, 20 x Bladegheist, 30 x Grimghast, 30 x Grimghast, 30 x Grimghast. No major hero support, no battalions, giving the KoSos 'Pendant' and 'Midnight Tome', so it's just mass numbers of horrible blades and grims ?.

[GeneralZero]

and you will loose all Heros scenarii even against a Mickey mouse band !

[Kirjava13]

Right lads. That game against the Sylvaneth? That's tomorrow. I've got a list (pretty similar to @relic456's list):

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (140)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Rune Blade
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spectral Tether

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (280)

Units
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 63

Reikenor plus Cogs should be a challenge as far as magic goes, the Knight of Shrouds with the Rune Blade should be able to put the hurt on high-save Treelords, I've got chaff with the Chainrasps and some killy power with the Reapers and the Revenants. 

A) Am I going to regret not having a Guardian of Souls?

B) What are those tree-huggers best at and how quickly are they going to wreck my spectral behind?
 

[Tropical Ghost General]

9 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

A) Am I going to regret not having a Guardian of Souls?

Potentially, as you currently only have the ruler of the spirits as a way to bring back models, as spectral tether doesn't bring back, it only heals. The +1 to wound is also really handy for your big hitters, like grims and blades, as they are then wounding on 2s.

9 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

B) What are those tree-huggers best at and how quickly are they going to wreck my spectral behind?

Setting wyld woods up on or near objectives is what I've had happen when facing treebeards. I had 40 rasps attack a tree lord sat on an objective, while he was camped in the wyld woods. In two rounds of combat, doing 80 attacks each time (160 total), I didn't do a single wound, as he had a 2+, re-rolling 1s (mystic shield). It will depend on the mission as well, but trying to attack the trees while they are in the trees in tough, really tough.

Also outside of the wyld woods, they will melt fairly quickly to your big hitters. Especially with no Alarielle, which she shouldn't be in a 1k game.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Tropical Ghost General

[Kirjava13]

Hmmm. Maybe I drop the KoS and get the GoS instead... Really got to protect him though, that'll be a lot of eggs in one squishy basket.

[Tropical Ghost General]

28 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

and you will loose all Heros scenarii even against a Mickey mouse band !

There is a potential of that, but as stated it's a silly list that can also be fairly self sufficient, as blades and grims don't really need hero buffs to be good.

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Hmmm. Maybe I drop the KoS and get the GoS instead... Really got to protect him though, that'll be a lot of eggs in one squishy basket.

In 1k it's tricky for ghosts, as you want to be taking 2-3 heroes really, but then you do that and you don't have enough points for your units to be viable to kill anything big and nasty, like a VLoZD with ethereal save and mystic shield ?.

I'm struggling myself with decent all round 1k lists to be honest. Being trying out 12 myrmourn, with spirit torment as general and ruler of the spirits, giving the torment midnight tome and taking shackles as a spell. The torment casts the endless spell, the banshees eat it. The torment heals the dead banshees, who now have 24 attacks at -2 rend. the torment lets them re-roll the ones, as 4s to hit is not good for such low attack numbers, and the D3 damage is decent. If you also pair with a GoS, they are wounding on 2's, and the KoSos can give them 3 attacks. If positioned well, they can unbind an enemy spell (at +3 on the unbind), to then take the total up to 4 attacks. But at 1 wound each, they are squishy and they can synergise well to put out a lot of hurt, but to get maximum output (3-4 attacks each, re-roll 1s to hit, +1 to wound) requires a minimum of 420pts of support units and spells, and that's to buff a 210pt unit!!! The only issue is that -2 rend messes with trees really well and other than characters or the BC, I don't think we have any other units that can do it, except the torment and the chainghasts, but their overall damage output would take more than 5 rounds of perfect rolls to take out a treelord.

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Kirjava13 if it's against the trees, you could try taking Kurdoss over Reikoner.

1. GoS (General/Ruler of the Spirits/Wychlight Lantern)
2. Kurdoss
3. 30 x Grimghasts
4. 10 x Grimsghasts
5. 10 x Chainrasps or 2 x Chainghasts
6.  Cogs

That's 980pts. You then have Kurdoss and the chainghasts to give -2 rend. The +1 to cast cogs isn't as strong as +3, but it helps.

[Kirjava13]

I haven't been able to build Kurdoss yet, and I only have 20 Reapers built, so that won't work for me. I won't even be able to use my Revenants, as I didn't get the time I thought I would to build them, or even base my second 10 Reapers. Bit grumpy.

[Tropical Ghost General]

25 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Bit grumpy

I feel you on that. I had to miss going to Blackout because of last minute work ****** ?. Why the world can't understand that the hobby should come 1st above all else I don't know ?. 

So apart from 20 grims, what else have you got? Also what have you got that can do -2 rend, any myrmourn or chainghasts or torments? 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Tropical Ghost General

[Kirjava13]

I've got (built):

30x Chainrasps

20x Grimghast Reapers

8x Glaivewraith Stalkers

4x Myrnmourn Banshees

3x Spirit Hosts

2x Chaingheists

2x Dreadblade Harrows

Knight of Shrouds

Guardian of Souls

Lord Executioner

Spirit Torment

Reikenor

Still to build: spooky ghosts aplenty (Black Coach, Kurdoss, Olynder, 10x Reapers, 4x Stalkers, 6x Spirit Hosts, 5x Hex Wraiths)

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Kirjava13 you have loads of potential but it's not yet built, I have a few bits waiting to get built as well, BC, Kurdoss, but I have even more waiting to get painted ?. 

If you go with just built units I'd go: Torment (general/spirit ruler/midnight tome/shademist) , GoS (soul cage), Reikenor (reaping scythe), 20 x chainghasts, 20 grimghasts, 3 spirit hosts. 

Without the bladegheists as well as the grims, cogs could be waste of points. The torment can revive D3 models, which can make spirit hosts really tough to get through. 

 

[Walkirriox]

5 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

Right lads. That game against the Sylvaneth? That's tomorrow. I've got a list (pretty similar to @relic456's list):

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (140)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Rune Blade
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spectral Tether

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (280)

Units
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 63

Reikenor plus Cogs should be a challenge as far as magic goes, the Knight of Shrouds with the Rune Blade should be able to put the hurt on high-save Treelords, I've got chaff with the Chainrasps and some killy power with the Reapers and the Revenants. 

A) Am I going to regret not having a Guardian of Souls?

B) What are those tree-huggers best at and how quickly are they going to wreck my spectral behind?
 

I play Sylvaneth as my main army, and nighthaunt as my second. The only thing I am scared of from nighthaunts are spirit hosts and their mortal wounds (you can also buff them with spirit torment rerolling ones). With a unit of 6 statistically you kill one big tree in 2 turns and they won’t get killed by him. Other than that you can try banshees buffed, but at 1k I don’t think they are worth it. 

Guardian of souls is a must. You will charge through woods (if he is smart placing them), that means you will be loosing 1/6 of your guys, but you can return them with gos spell.

[Spears]

Having reread the rules for the torment, am I correct in that unlike the other death heals you can try And roll high enough to bring back a multi wound model even if the unit has a wounded model In it?

[ClockworkGeo91]

10 hours ago, Walkirriox said:

I play Sylvaneth as my main army, and nighthaunt as my second. The only thing I am scared of from nighthaunts are spirit hosts and their mortal wounds (you can also buff them with spirit torment rerolling ones). With a unit of 6 statistically you kill one big tree in 2 turns and they won’t get killed by him. Other than that you can try banshees buffed, but at 1k I don’t think they are worth it. 

Guardian of souls is a must. You will charge through woods (if he is smart placing them), that means you will be loosing 1/6 of your guys, but you can return them with gos spell.

Yeah agreed - i'd swap out the KoS for GoS, Grimhailer can fill a similar role to KoS.

[TheWolfLord]

1 hour ago, Spears said:

Having reread the rules for the torment, am I correct in that unlike the other death heals you can try And roll high enough to bring back a multi wound model even if the unit has a wounded model In it?

The Spirit Torment allows you to choose between healing a model or if the unit has slain models to return models to the unit. It’s a choice so you can leave an injured model unhealed and try and return models instead.

However, it does read like you have to declare which option you’re choosing before rolling the dice. So no rolling then deciding to heal if the roll is too low to return a model.

[ledha]

One guy in my local area play 3x30 grimghast reapers in a LON allegiance. He is still unbeaten. Ton of mobility, tricks, resilience and hard-hitting power. He was able to punch trough a daughter of haine army with ton of witches as well as my skulltake in a pure brawl

[Benlisted]

So, because I'm that kind of person, I've thrown together a spreadsheet showing the damage potential, damage per point and durability of Nh units. You can toggle (hopefully) all the in-faction buffs on and off, alter the unit sizes, and so on. Figured it would be useful for you lot, so here it is. 

Nighthaunt number crunching

It's locked for editing so download a copy to play around with it. Give me a shout if anything is wrong! Worth noting that by default I have all self buffs turned on. 

Edit: Thought I'd add some take home points... 

Reapers are bonkers. A unit puts out 30 wounds with just their own buff. A unit of chainrasps are however identical in terms of points per wound, until you factor in rend.

A full unit of Bladeghiests, assuming they get their rerolls, actually average almost the exact same damage output as reapers over 2 turns of combat (toggle +1atk for charging on and off). So if the enemy retreats they're doing better, and since they're 40pts cheaper they do more damage per point. 

Banshees are best vs only the really high save stuff, and only if they have their attacks buff off. Though if the enemy has reroll saves they would pull ahead sooner. 

Harridans are just behind reapers in terms of points per wounds and notably aren't reliant on a self-buff. Glaivewraiths are just behind them. 

Poor spirit hosts and hexwraiths (though I haven't factored in their movement MWs) are terrible in terms of points per wound - they pay a real premium for MWs and resurrection efficiency. Same for chainghasts, even factoring in the shooting, unless you get in against an absolute ton of models. 

Hordes, then reapers, then hosts are our most durable units per point. Chainghasts, then banshees are the least. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Benlisted

[GeneralZero]

3 hours ago, TheWolfLord said:

The Spirit Torment allows you to choose between healing a model or if the unit has slain models to return models to the unit. It’s a choice so you can leave an injured model unhealed and try and return models instead.

However, it does read like you have to declare which option you’re choosing before rolling the dice. So no rolling then deciding to heal if the roll is too low to return a model.

Something  is still  unclear to me: Lets take an example with spirit host with 3 wounds. I declare  "return models" option. Roll the D3, roll 2. Can I return a spirit host with 2 PV, meaning he's wounded with one wound?  Or do I MANDATORY need (written nowhere) to roll 3 on the D3 to get back a Spirit host at full life?