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AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion


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3 hours ago, Yargar said:

I agree that the book needs a rework, but I am on the fence with the generic battalions. I'm afraid they will water down armies into the same thing.

I think betallions will just make strong armies stronger and offer little for most and nerf a few books that use a specific betallion as it's engine. For example, sepharon don't care about betallions and they're S tier. This change can only make them stronger. Tzentch (without Archaon) on the other hand will go from highly competitive to mid or low tier without the betallion builds they use. Making betallions symmetrical for all armies will have an asymmetrical impact due to each army have a different roster of units that interact with them.

My main hope is that we don't end up with one obviously better universal betallion that ends up used by every faction.

As a faction that isn't very betallion dependant, Nighthaunt have more to gain though, although they're probably in the same camp as a majority of factions.

Edited by Rors
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There were rumors saying faction battalions are going away, at least in matched play.  The rumors got a lot of other things right, so they have high credibility.  Their source was certainly working from at least a version of the new rules.  Now it might have been from a play test that only wanted people using the generic battalions in order to try them out or something like that, the final version could easily be different from whatever version the rumor source saw.  But right now, yeah, we're currently expecting the faction specific battalions to go narrative/open only.

Edited by Sception
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On 5/10/2021 at 4:42 PM, Spears said:

I'm mostly excited about the prospect that the nighthaunt units are no longer gimped in NH by their potential abuse in Legions of nagash. I don't think the points hits to grims for instance would ever have been needed if they weren't summonable in lon.

SGL still can bring NH units as Allies (FEC as well)

...but 'Deathlords' and 'Soulblight' keywords disappeared from SGL book 😕

Edited by libr4rian
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The 2 new processions can be a hint about the rumor of the  faction battalions in the next AOS edition. The Emerald Host and Reikenor's Condemned have the same effects as 2 battalions. Maybe some of the battalions will be included in some sub-factions.

I also have a quick question about Arkhan. Do you think he can be a good ally in a Nighhaunt army? His Mortarch of Sacrament ability can be very usefull.

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Hey guys, whats everyone's interpretation of fielding Dolorous Guard in an Emerald Host Subfaction? Would the two instances of "Knights of Regret" stack? I know battallions are going away but I have a tournament before 3rd edition hits and would really like Hexwraiths with 8 attacks on the charge :)

 

 

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Our interpretation of the rules interaction in the context of a specific event you plan on participating in absolutely does not matter.  Contact the organizers of that event and ask them how they intend to rule on the question.

...

Now if it were just the two of use playing a friendly pick up game, my interpretation would be expressed via rolling my eyes pretty hard at the obvious chicanery of it all, but I'd still be down to play it out for a laugh.  😛

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52 minutes ago, Sception said:

Our interpretation of the rules interaction in the context of a specific event you plan on participating in absolutely does not matter.  Contact the organizers of that event and ask them how they intend to rule on the question.

...

Now if it were just the two of use playing a friendly pick up game, my interpretation would be expressed via rolling my eyes pretty hard at the obvious chicanery of it all, but I'd still be down to play it out for a laugh.  😛

I actually asked the TO and he just replied. His default response to issues like this is "everything in AOS stacks unless specifically stated otherwise". So he is going to allow it. Also note this actually allows you to roll to bounce wounds twice, so your General is essentially immortal as long as there are hexwraiths nearby lol. Not super powerful with our army but could be funny if armies try to snipe him off early (happened last tourney)

I mean my last 2 tournament opponents were Fyreslayers with 40+ berzerkers and DoK with snakes, morathi, and a horde of sisters of slaughter. My next practice game is vs LRL with 30 sentinels. 

So while this combo does make hexwraiths quite effective when they charge, they are still miles away from being competitive in this meta.  So while I do personally try to avoid abusive/NPE list building, this isn't going to make me lose any sleep lol. 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, pikachoux said:

The 2 new processions can be a hint about the rumor of the  faction battalions in the next AOS edition. The Emerald Host and Reikenor's Condemned have the same effects as 2 battalions. Maybe some of the battalions will be included in some sub-factions.

I also have a quick question about Arkhan. Do you think he can be a good ally in a Nighhaunt army? His Mortarch of Sacrament ability can be very usefull.

I'm hoping for Death Riders to inspire a subfaction if this is the case. 

As for Arkhan, I'm not even sure he's a possible ally anymore. He's not in the new Soulblight book, but is in Ossiarch who are not our allies. We'll see if that gets answered in an FAQ. 

17 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I actually asked the TO and he just replied. His default response to issues like this is "everything in AOS stacks unless specifically stated otherwise". So he is going to allow it. Also note this actually allows you to roll to bounce wounds twice, so your General is essentially immortal as long as there are hexwraiths nearby lol. Not super powerful with our army but could be funny if armies try to snipe him off early (happened last tourney)

I mean my last 2 tournament opponents were Fyreslayers with 40+ berzerkers and DoK with snakes, morathi, and a horde of sisters of slaughter. My next practice game is vs LRL with 30 sentinels. 

So while this combo does make hexwraiths quite effective when they charge, they are still miles away from being competitive in this meta.  So while I do personally try to avoid abusive/NPE list building, this isn't going to make me lose any sleep lol. 

"You spent so much time wondering whether you could, you didn't think about whether you should."

I'm reminded of this common quote - I don't see why you would go to the effort of doing something that will pretty clearly not be allowed in the near future and isn't meant to happen. The buff just isn't worth it. Especially, when you could just take Death Riders. You should be taking a Dreadblade, so that's not a tax unit, and if you're planning to play with Hexwraiths as a main part of your army, you should be taking the Black Coach. The +1 charge it provides can make a huge difference when fishing for charges, especially if combined with Chronomantic Cogs. And getting the Wave of Terror on a 9+ means you'll want to be fishing for charges! The math is so much better for a 9+ than a 10+; it's crazy. 

I'll take the +1 attack on the charge, +1 charge to charge rolls, and 1 in 3 chance of fighting twice versus the +2 attacks on the charge every time. 

I've played a handful of in person games running Death Riders in Emerald Host, and have been very pleased with the power level/punchiness. 

As for the legality of it, it's pretty clearly not meant to happen. The rule for Emerald Host and the Dolorous Guard battalion has the same exact name (Knights of Regret) and same wording. Think of it as adding a keyword to those Hexwraiths. They already have the keyword, so adding the keyword a second time doesn't do anything. And you also can't roll multiples of the same type of save, so you wouldn't be able to roll to bounce the wound twice. 

FAQ could prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's meant to happen that way. 

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1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

I'm hoping for Death Riders to inspire a subfaction if this is the case. 

As for Arkhan, I'm not even sure he's a possible ally anymore. He's not in the new Soulblight book, but is in Ossiarch who are not our allies. We'll see if that gets answered in an FAQ. 

"You spent so much time wondering whether you could, you didn't think about whether you should."

I'm reminded of this common quote - I don't see why you would go to the effort of doing something that will pretty clearly not be allowed in the near future and isn't meant to happen. The buff just isn't worth it. Especially, when you could just take Death Riders. You should be taking a Dreadblade, so that's not a tax unit, and if you're planning to play with Hexwraiths as a main part of your army, you should be taking the Black Coach. The +1 charge it provides can make a huge difference when fishing for charges, especially if combined with Chronomantic Cogs. And getting the Wave of Terror on a 9+ means you'll want to be fishing for charges! The math is so much better for a 9+ than a 10+; it's crazy. 

I'll take the +1 attack on the charge, +1 charge to charge rolls, and 1 in 3 chance of fighting twice versus the +2 attacks on the charge every time. 

I've played a handful of in person games running Death Riders in Emerald Host, and have been very pleased with the power level/punchiness. 

As for the legality of it, it's pretty clearly not meant to happen. The rule for Emerald Host and the Dolorous Guard battalion has the same exact name (Knights of Regret) and same wording. Think of it as adding a keyword to those Hexwraiths. They already have the keyword, so adding the keyword a second time doesn't do anything. And you also can't roll multiples of the same type of save, so you wouldn't be able to roll to bounce the wound twice. 

FAQ could prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's meant to happen that way. 

So in a meta full of Seraphon, LRL, and Tzeetch, I just don't get spells off.  So I don't even bother with expensive endless spells like Cogs anymore. It will get dispelled. I barely bring wizards at all right now unless they just happen to be incidental to the list.  You may have a point about Death riders, but Hexwraiths m12 + Pendant generally means that I am often making the decision on who gets charged and the +1 attack (or in my case +2 attack) is just more reliable for tournament play. The situations in which I roll a 9+ are a LOT less than situations where I just make a charge. I guess it comes down to a preference of sustainable damage over burst damage.

I am a RAI kind of guy as well, and I am not gonna roll up to a pickup/friendly game with this kind of cheese, but with the current state of AOS (and the domination by 5-6 factions) I am absolutely gonna use every tool at my disposal for tournament play.

Its not really any different from someone planting 40 berzerkers with a 4++ and always strike first on two main objectives. Or someone castling up and shooting with 30 sentinels with rerolls and -1 to be hit. Or an army of 4 Hurricanums in deepstrike and 30+ phoenix guard lol. All of these things are gonna be there (or at least they were at the last few tourneys)

None of these lists were meant to exist, but they do, and they all beat the ****** out of NH, even with an extra attack on my Hexrwaiths lol.  

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Re: Arkhan.  He's a Deathlord, and Nighthaunts can ally in deathlords.  So he's a valid ally choice at least until either NH or OBR get a new battletome.  After that, who knows.  It's possible Nighthaunts will lose Deathlord allies - since the death factions are consolidating around the four big faction keywords of SG, FEC, NH, and OBR instead of the older more granular keywords like deathlords, deathrattle, deathmages, etc.  If that happens, then Arkhan would no longer be a valid ally choice, even if NH gained OBR as an ally option instead, since Arkhan doesn't have the OBR keyword natively on his warscroll, he only gains it when taken as part of an OBR army.

For the mean time, though, he's still legal.

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9 minutes ago, Sception said:

Re: Arkhan.  He's a Deathlord, and Nighthaunts can ally in deathlords.  So he's a valid ally choice at least until either NH or OBR get a new battletome.  After that, who knows.  It's possible Nighthaunts will lose Deathlord allies - since the death factions are consolidating around the four big faction keywords of SG, FEC, NH, and OBR instead of the older more granular keywords like deathlords, deathrattle, deathmages, etc.  If that happens, then Arkhan would no longer be a valid ally choice, even if NH gained OBR as an ally option instead, since Arkhan doesn't have the OBR keyword natively on his warscroll, he only gains it when taken as part of an OBR army.

For the mean time, though, he's still legal.

With Arkhan, the guardian of souls in Procession: Reikenor's Condemned and a general with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts the healing will be amazing. So far I think its legal until the new edition. Nighthaunt really needs more sub-factions. I did not look but I wonder if Nighthaunt is the only army book without sub-factions. Since the Bel'akor book, I want to play more my lovely ghosts.

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5 minutes ago, pikachoux said:

Nighthaunt really needs more sub-factions.

I'm eager to see how they integrate Legion of Grief moving forward. At the minute it still exists but we can only run ghosts in it. Would like to see it be part of the main battletome, alongside Emerald Host and Reik's Condemned.  

Edited by lare2
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25 minutes ago, lare2 said:

I'm eager to see how they integrate Legion of Grief moving forward. At the minute it still exists but we can only run ghosts in it. Would like to see it be part of the main battletome, alongside Emerald Host and Reik's Condemned.  

I'm sorry to say, but my expectation is that it'll be just gone.  Subfactions these days get minor additions to a faction's core allegiance rules, they don't get a full separate allegiance ruleset.  Further, the Emerald Host is very clearly marked as Olynder's personal army, which doesn't really leave a distinct role for Legion of Grief.

I doubt GW will ever come out and say 'you can't play it anymore'.  Just like they never just outright said you aren't allowed to run wraith fleet anymore, or any other obscure forgotten 1e allegiances.  At the same time I don't expect it to be referenced in a new NH book or allowed at official events.

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34 minutes ago, Sception said:

I'm sorry to say, but my expectation is that it'll be just gone. 

You're probably right. If it does continue, I also can't see there being many similarities between what we have now and whatever incarnation it could potentially become... so long gravesite tokens.  

Edited by lare2
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I got a chance to read through a friend's advance release of Soulblight Gravelords. Interesting faction now, I kind of dig them. If I were to ever play them, I think I'd lean heavily into a mostly vampire setup with Blood Knights and such.

Anyway, there were a few takeaways I wanted to bring up from the book. First, the confirmed stuff:

  • Vampire Lords, or any ally from Soulblight, will no longer offer Deathly Invocation to us. It is now an Allegiance ability and has been removed from the warscroll cards.
  • In order to ally with a Vampire Lord (if we still wanted) we'd need the ability to ally with the following keywords: Death, Vampire, Soulblight Gravelords, Hero, Wizard, Vampire Lord. Currently, our allies are: Deathlords, Soulblight. Soulblight does not exist anymore* (replaced by Soulblight Gravelords more on this below) so the remaining ally choices are:
    • Mannfred von Carstein (Deathlord keyword) - 380 points
    • and that's it (from this book)
  • Soulblight Gravelords can ally with: Flesh-eater Courts, Nighthaunt (so they can take any of our units)
  • The book contains 5 warscroll battalions. Given that the book is still a 2nd edition release, these offer standard battalion boosts to several units, along with both Allegiance abilities and a subfaction set of buffs.

Okay, with that out of the way, let's get into some speculation:

  • If you read the Rules As Written* then we cannot ally anything other than Mannfred. While it can be speculated that our ally list will be updated from Soulblight to Soulblight Gravelords, this would be a Rules as Intended* change, and thus would have to be agreed upon by everyone involved until our book is updated.
    • If we are to gain new allies, this book shows that factions will be allies now, and not keywords. So, we'd have to get the ally Soulblight Gravelords, which opens up everything in the book below 200/400 points.
  • It is not likely Malignant will be a thing we can ally with. The book still includes those keywords for the Bloodseeker Palanquin (Malignant keyword) - 290 and Mortis Engine (Malignant keyword) - 200, but it's not a faction keyword.
    • But, again, if we get Soulblight Gravelords we'll get access to the Mortis Engine. And Necromancers.
  • This book contains two changes to the way some rules work that I think we're going to see a flavor of in our own book:
    • Endless Legions: This is now a battleshock phase battle trait that functions with the number of enemy units you've killed that turn. Roll a die, add any enemy units you killed this turn, and if the total roll is 5+ select a Deadwalkers or Deathrattle unit that you lost and return half of it at an open gravesite. No command points necessary, but it's always on. Reduced potency, but does not lock out model return bringing back models to that unit.
      • I can see a similar function being included for Nighthaunt. No graves, though, so we may need to see it come from a hero or some other limiter.
    • All allegiant wizards, no matter who they are, get the spell Invigorating Aura in addition to another single spell lore option (Vampires get Lore of Vampires, Deathmages get Lore of Deathmages, Nagash and Mortarchs get both [because they are vampries]). This spell has a high cast value of 8, but you can add 1 to the roll for it for every Hero you have on the field. It's 18" and heals any Summonable unit wholly within range 3 wounds (no roll), or if no wounds are missing, 3 wounds worth of models. What's even better than that is that all wizards can cast this in the same hero phase, even if another already has. The limiter is that a unit can only benefit from this spell once.
      • Spectral Lure? All wizards have access? +1 to the roll casting it for every Hero we have, even if they aren't wizards? Can cast it multiple times per hero phase, just need to target different units whenever it's successful? Gimmie please!

*Do yourself a favor here and be consistent. If you argue for Rules as Written, then things like our Krulghast Cruciator can't prevent mortal wounds (yet). That means no Vampire allies. It's not likely the Be'lakor FAQ will address our allies, but the SG FAQ might. Otherwise we're waiting for a new book. Alternately, if you read it as Rules as Intended, be up front with your other players because it can be a slippery slope and everyone needs to be on the same page. Don't assume.

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10 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

so the remaining ally choices are:

  • Mannfred von Carstein (Deathlord keyword) - 380 points
  • and that's it (from this book)

 

Good post! But surely Neferata is also an option as an ally. I mean, probably not the most intersting one, since one of her major abilities is to make units ethereal, but still.

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For reference:

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These lists come from a couple prominent players, one of which is a former grandmaster and the other a current playtester. Interesting. I'd love to see how they'd handle the lists.

Look at the second one, the list with Emerald Host. They dodged the whole locked-in Command Trait and didn't take Lord of the Host. Typo? Shenanigans? I'd like to see something about that.

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2 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

@EnixLHQ

Also doesn’t feature enough units of banshees for the battalion. Clearly someone who didn’t understand the nuances of the book. There’s a lot of rules and armies in this game - even the best players can misunderstand books they’re not familiar with. 

True enough. Hope it gets addressed.

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30 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

@EnixLHQ

Also doesn’t feature enough units of banshees for the battalion. Clearly someone who didn’t understand the nuances of the book. 

I hope it's not too telling that they couldn't find other people to feature in their article than a playtester with a wrong list and a guy whose list consists of 700 points of heroes to support min-units of Chainrasps and max unit of Glaivewraith Stalkers.

Kinda wanna see him playing that list in a livestream against Lumineth and co 🙃

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