AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[dmorley21]

29 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Has anyone actually seen the new dreadscythe warscroll? I've only seen their abilities. 

Yep. If you watch Facehammer's review on YouTube, you'll see it. Nothing else has changed that we didn't know of already. 

28 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Getting the bofyguard feature built in is totally a bonus, even if you dont field rasps

The bodyguard bonus comes with The Emerald Procession, which doesn't give any boost to 'Rasps. 

I've come to two further realizations after spending more time chewing on everything:

The battalion is better than I thought on first glance, because of Lady O's command ability meaning she could return a model to each of the three units in the battalion without being the general. Still not something I'd take. 

It's unfortunate that they've now managed to make Nighthaunt have even less options. You'll either be doing a Hexwraith build or a Chainrasp build. Maybe if we get a battletome there will be a procession that focuses on each of the battleline units. 

[lare2]

1 minute ago, dmorley21 said:

Yep. If you watch Facehammer's review on YouTube, you'll see it. Nothing else has changed that we didn't know of already. 

Shame. Thanks though. 

[Benlisted]

48 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Has anyone actually seen the new dreadscythe warscroll? I've only seen their abilities. 

I saw it somewhere last night but can't find it now, but it's unchanged other that what's in the whc article.  I did hear a second hand rumour that due to covid etc the release cycle these books were written potentially years ago - which may explain them being 90pts as I think a few ghbs/FAQs ago that's where they were at. I'm hoping for an FAQ reverting them to 70.

I don't know how to feel about these updates. I'm disappointed like everyone else - they're uninventive copy+pastes of existing rules with little thought for synergy. Getting dolorous guard and a free cp and the debuff is nice but you're locked out of rotsh and forced to take a kos general to get more bonus than free dolorous guard and a debuff on one enemy char, when you probably want olynder or a harrow. Reikenor's is better but honestly, the glaivewraith buff - they have rerolls on their damn warscroll, did noone check this?? I am also not totally convinced of the wisdom of wounding your own 5 wound gos for a +3 to cast, and it's annoying you still have to risk the death save annuling the bonus.  Olynder's battalion is the third version of the bodyguard effect (seriously just implement 40k's look out sir as a core rule already) and offers no benefit to the units within it, one of which is now absurdly overcosted.  And the new character is a neat effect (entirely within can die in a fire though) but just too expensive in a slot we already have stiff competition for.

And yet exhibiting what may be Stockholm syndrome here I am scrabbling for the scraps GW throws us and thinking about new list options.  I have wondered about reikenor's lot with dolorous guard and the new choir batts so you have untargetable general, olynder and reikenor, but it ends up feeling a bit anaemic on models.  I think ditching olynder and just taking more rasps or bladegheists is probably better.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Benlisted

[Tiberius501]

Hmmm, have I come in at a bad time to start a Nighthaunt army? Lol

[lare2]

35 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

Hmmm, have I come in at a bad time to start a Nighthaunt army? Lol

At least it's cheap to do so😄

And if the rumours of AoS 3.0 in June/July come to fruition, we won't even have that anymore. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by lare2

[Btimmy]

Reik's thing is just straight gas. A huge bonus to cast at the cost of one wound (assuming you don't negate it accidently) is amazing in an army that has very little bonuses to cast. Plus, it buffs our best battleline unit for free, and gives an amazing command ability that doubles the movement of those battleline? 12inch flying chaff that is immune to rend and gets slappier for free thanks to the rerolls is very nice. Also bonus to bring them back, can still take the best command trait on the other not reik general,  and two generals allows for some nice use of the cp teleport anything to your general ability. If anything, NH just needs some ways to generate additional cp and the army would feel really good. 

[Thamalys]

Nope. Not buying the book, not buying the new model. This changes nothing in terms of how this faction plays - and, crucially, it doesn’t mitigate any of the  issues that have been there since the battle tome was released. I refuse to engage with the ghosts until we get rid of the “wholly within” nonsense. The attempt to make Stalkers viable is laughable and the Harridans now pale against both Revenants and Reapers. Let’s hope in a new battle tome, but if this is a taste of what it’s there, the future looks a bit bleak. Hopefully I’ll be proven wrong - I’d love to take my ghosts to tournaments again...

[Tiberius501]

So what about something like this?

—[Reikenor’s Condemned]—

HEROES

- Reikenor (General)

- Knight of Shrouds on Steed (General; CT: Ruler of The Spirit Hosts)

- Guardian of Souls 

- Spirit Torment

BATTLELINE

- 20x Chainrasps

- 20x Chainrasps

- 6x Spirit Hosts

BEHEMOTH

- Black Coach

OTHER

- 10x Bladegheists 

- 10x Bladegheists 

- 2x Chainghasts

BATTALION 

- Shroudguard

Total 1850/2000

I still have 150pts to spend, but not sure on what. And I’m not sure which Artefact to take as my second and who to give them to, and also what spells to take.

Any suggestions on the list, what to spend the extra points on, and what to do with artefacts and spells?

[Benlisted]

I've come up with a potentially decent build for reik's lot...

GoS general w/ rotsh, new relic and spectral tether

Reikenor w/ soul cage

Torment w/ pendant of fell wind

Torment w/ midnight tome & shademist

Flying horror vamp lord

40 rasps

40 rasps

10 hexwraiths

10 hexwraiths

Dolorous Guard

Chainguard

1990

 

So, for recursion you have an Uber GoS general with +3 to cast and healing 3d6 on rasps when he does. 2 torments, rotsh, and invocation. And in a pinch can heal heroes with tether.

Both the GoS and reik have ablative wounds from the hexes so shouldn't be going down, and both can increase rasp movement or teleport units (I suspect GoS holds the line while reik goes off somewhere with a hex unit, and can pull a rasp unit into an opportune place).

You have enough casting for all our decent spells and mystic shield, movement buff from the pendant, GoS to buff one unit and torments to cover both rasps. And the VL can dump cp to buff rasps damage even further.

[Btimmy]

3 minutes ago, Benlisted said:

I've come up with a potentially decent build for reik's lot...

GoS general w/ rotsh, new relic and spectral tether

Reikenor w/ soul cage

Torment w/ pendant of fell wind

Torment w/ midnight tome & shademist

Flying horror vamp lord

40 rasps

40 rasps

10 hexwraiths

10 hexwraiths

Dolorous Guard

Chainguard

1990

 

So, for recursion you have an Uber GoS general with +3 to cast and healing 3d6 on rasps when he does. 2 torments, rotsh, and invocation. And in a pinch can heal heroes with tether.

Both the GoS and reik have ablative wounds from the hexes so shouldn't be going down, and both can increase rasp movement or teleport units (I suspect GoS holds the line while reik goes off somewhere with a hex unit, and can pull a rasp unit into an opportune place).

You have enough casting for all our decent spells and mystic shield, movement buff from the pendant, GoS to buff one unit and torments to cover both rasps. And the VL can dump cp to buff rasps damage even further.

This list looks solid, though I'm not sold on the chain guard nor the units of 10 for the hexwraiths. I'd probably try to get lady O in there somewhere and maybe a different battalion personally, as well as trying to find room to buy another command point. I'd also probably try to avoid the vampire lord and instead do a knight on steed just to avoid having to bring an ally, but thats just my preferences. 

[Benlisted]

Just now, Btimmy said:

This list looks solid, though I'm not sold on the chain guard nor the units of 10 for the hexwraiths. I'd probably try to get lady O in there somewhere and maybe a different battalion personally, as well as trying to find room to buy another command point. I'd also probably try to avoid the vampire lord and instead do a knight on steed just to avoid having to bring an ally, but thats just my preferences. 

Yeah I've just tweaked to another version:

GoS

Reik

Torment

Vamp lord

2x40 rasps

2x5 hexes

20 bladegheists

2x2 chainghasts

Dolorous guard

Extra cp

2k

 

Might be a bit better, chainguard is probably overkill. I have tried to fit Oly too but feel like she needs the choir batt so she isn't sniped and that really limits what else you get but will have another go later.

I also would much prefer not to ally but the kos' ability only being turn not round is really the final straw, he's just worse - not a caster, worse command ability, and no invocation. It feels like I'm hamstringing myself not to ally a vamp.

[lare2]

I can no longer see people's names... anyone else see this new update?

[Btimmy]

7 minutes ago, lare2 said:

I can no longer see people's names... anyone else see this new update?

Its the new mobile version. I had to switch to desktop mode on my phone to "fix" it.

[lare2]

26 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

Its the new mobile version. I had to switch to desktop mode on my phone to "fix" it.

Nice one. Thanks, that's sorted it.

Like the mark now which let's my know where new messages are. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by lare2

[EnixLHQ]

Woah, woah, woah, guys.

Nothing will change the way Nighthaunt plays until a new Battletome happens. They can't rewrite an entire faction with a subsection of a narrative book. That would be way way worse than what we got.

What this is is some extra toys for us to use until either an updated Battletome, or an AoS 3.0 Battletome, gets released. Until then, we can just as easily assume that every model we have right now will either be exactly the same or completely re-written in the new book, and either way be both right or wrong at the same time.

Anyway, as far as the Krulghast Cruciator goes, they pretty plainly called him a "support hero," which I am taking to mean he is best paired with another hero. I'm envisioning something like him and a Spirit Torment together with a maxed unit of Bladegeists. 120+120+320=560 points. You'd get a full unit buffed by the Spirit Torment to reroll misses, a 5++ save that also applies to the Spirit Tormen so it's not so easy to snipe him, and the ST's ability to restore models or wounds to himself or the KC on the battleshock phase.

Speaking plainly, the Krulghast's ability is not limited to "summonable," so even the heroes within 12" of him get the 5+ save, including himself. This makes it much more balanced in terms of risk/reward to push him, another hero, and a unit of your choice forward on the board and be aggressive.

9 Spirit Hosts, the ST and the KC, 600 points, and the murderball now can survive more wounds on a 5++ and be even more of a "must kill" threat.

Edited April 17, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[lare2]

7 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

9 Spirit Hosts, the ST and the KC, 600 points, and the murderball now can survive more wounds on a 5++ and be even more of a "must kill" threat.

Every list I've created today has started with this! I honestly think the KC is pretty decent and it pleasantly surprised me... much better than what SCE got as well. 

[Btimmy]

4 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Woah, woah, woah, guys.

Nothing will change the way Nighthaunt plays until a new Battletome happens. They can't rewrite an entire faction with a subsection of a narrative book. That would be way way worse than what we got.

What this is is some extra toys for us to use until either an updated Battletome, or an AoS 3.0 Battletome, gets released. Until then, we can just as easily assume that every model we have right now will either be exactly be the same or completely re-written in the new book, and either way be both right or wrong at the same time.

Anyway, as far as the Krulghast Cruciator goes, they pretty plainly called him a "support hero," which I am taking to mean he is best paired with enough hero. I'm envisioning something like him and a Spirit Torment together with a maxed unit of Bladegeists. 120+120+320=560 points. You'd get a full unit buffed by the Spirit Torment to reroll misses, a 5++ save that also applies to the Spirit Tormen so it's not so easy to snipe him, and the ST's ability to restore models on the battleshock phase.

Speaking plainly, the Krulghast's ability is not limited to "summonable," so even the heroes within 12" of him get the 5+ save. This makes it much more balanced in terms of risk/reward to push him, another hero, and a unit of your choice forward on the board and be aggressive.

9 Spirit Hosts, the ST and the KC, 600 points, and the murderball now can survive more wounds on a 5++ and be even more of a "must kill" threat.

This assumes that you are able to get the new hero in range of and wound an enemy while maintaining this sort of deathball formation. I'm pretty meh on the new hero, not a caster, extremely conditional buff that is pretty tight range wise, and competes for a hero slot with other, imo better heros. Just my opinion but unless this guy was like 40-50 points i wouldn't run him. As I stated above though, the free stuff from the subfactions is pretty nice, Reiks especially with the dolorous guard, assuming those battalions don't get nixed for the sake of duplicity. Furthermore, as written the new heros 5+ only applies to normal, NOT MORTAL wounds, but that is potentially just an oversight. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Yeah the cruciator is just rough. Expensive, competes with an already clogged hero lineup, decent shooting for a conditional +1 to FnP... 

Feels like he needed something more. Some sort of synergy with chainghasts maybe

[Heijoshin]

17 hours ago, PraetorDragoon said:

You can.

Music. To. My. Ears.

[Tiberius501]

How to I fix my phone version of this site? It’s all messed up for me now. 

[lare2]

37 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

How to I fix my phone version of this site? It’s all messed up for me now. 

I'm in chrome. Scroll right to the bottom and you'll see a theme option. Choose default. Not sure if it's the same on other browsers. 

[Tiberius501]

9 minutes ago, lare2 said:

I'm in chrome. Scroll right to the bottom and you'll see a theme option. Choose default. Not sure if it's the same on other browsers. 

Aaah thanks heaps, I totally missed the theme menu. Much better. 

[Tiberius501]

Also, sorry to be a pain, but was my list posted above at all useable? And any advice on which artefacts and spells to use or how to spend the last 150pts?

[lare2]

Pendant on the spirit torment would be a good choice. I'd also go for 3 more spirit hosts and give the spirit torment ruler of the spirit host. Him with the spirit hosts will be a tough unit. 

Unless I'm just being stupid as well, I don't think you've given a 1st artefact? You'll have to give the candle to the guardian first. 

Soul Cage on Reik, I reckon. Whatever you want really for the guardian. Imagine he's gonna be hiding in rasps? He's probably gonna be spending a lot of time doing spectral lure.

The rest of it is as solid as a Nighthaunt list can be 👍

Edited April 18, 2021 by lare2

[PraetorDragoon]

4 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Yeah the cruciator is just rough. Expensive, competes with an already clogged hero lineup, decent shooting for a conditional +1 to FnP... 

Feels like he needed something more. Some sort of synergy with chainghasts maybe

I feel the same. The Curciator is not bad, as decent reliable shooting and improving toughness of Nighthaunt is something we lack, Still it feels like something is missing there.