AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Greasygeek]

9 hours ago, Sception said:

Teclis has been out for a solid week, so I don't think we should necessarily still be putting everything in sblocks, but even so...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The going theme of Broken Realms, and seemingly the next edition of AoS that it's setting the stage for, is the collapse of previous grand alliances and even individual factions into internal conflict.  The elven gods breaking away from Sigmar.  Morathi betraying Sigmar and the Elven gods alike.  Various Cities of Sigmar split between these various factions.  Be'lakor vs. Archaon, with all of chaos turning to infighting without a single unquestioned authority to hold them together.  Slaaneshi seekers vs. pretenders.  Fleshy Vamp Count and FEC undead fighting back against the OBR tithe without Nagash around to force compliance.  Vamp Count dynasties going to war with each other over territories and living food stock communities not already consumed by the Necropolis.  So far nothings really changing for Destruction, but Kragnos isn't out yet, and it's not like Destruction was ever really treated as a 'grand alliance' to begin with.

I'm not really sure what's going on with Nighthaunt in all this.  Following the theme of everything else, we're likely to see some conflict between Olynder and Kurdoss.  But apart from 'more control over the now limited population of nighthaunts in the wake of Teclis's big rune', I'm not sure what either of them want to actually do with the processions they are able to control.  Olynder has been working closely with Katakros, pretty much ever since she released his soul, but is that because her interests are actually aligned with his, or is that only because Nagash was actively holding her chain?

Maybe we'll get some sense of that in Be'Lakor, Since apparently Olynder will feature there.  I'm not expecting answers to these questions there, though, as I expect it to be set concurrent with rather than after BR:Teclis, so I'm not expecting to see Olynder's reaction to Nagash's "death" (and it was very much Nagash's true physical form that got beat down, not 'just' an avatar) or her reaction to whatever the effects of Teclis's rune actually turn out to be.  I think we'll have to wait for a new Nighthaunt book for that.  Shouldn't be too long a wait though.  Within the next year, I'd think.

 

 

Sorry dude but Brexit and such is scrambling delivereances at least in Denmark. I got my hands on the Teclis book this friday, and that was the first time it pop up in the various Warhammer and FLGS.
However lots of stores still hasn’t got it yet.

Just finished the second act and though Im reading as fast as I can it is quite frustrating to see that many has started spilling the beans everywhere in comment sections and here too.

So I really appreciate the hidden spoilers.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Greasygeek

[Gitzdee]

Thanks this is really helpfull. I will be aiming to get some more bodies (ghosts?) on the table.
I think i'll run the Spirit Hosts 6x/3x and add another unit. Dont want my army to look like only spirit hosts for now :P.
I'll be playing these models for fun until i get some more models. I'm having a blast painting these characters.

I also have another question. Does GW plan on ever releasing the Guardian of Souls and Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed models?
Any other limited models out there? 

 

[Evil Bob]

40 minutes ago, Iksdee said:

I also have another question. Does GW plan on ever releasing the Guardian of Souls and Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed models?
Any other limited models out there? 

It’s rather surprising GW has not released kits outside the mega sprue after two years.  They can be found on eBay or local FB groups.  The after market price on the Nighthaunt half (even discounting Grimghasts and Glaivewraiths) is a steal at GW prices.  It’s practically a must for anyone starting Nighthaunt.

[Darnok]

5 hours ago, Iksdee said:

I also have another question. Does GW plan on ever releasing the Guardian of Souls and Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed models?
Any other limited models out there?

I can not comment on what GWs plan is, but if I were you I would not get my hopes up on a seperate release. Take the 40K 8th edition starter set: it came with a Death Guard lord that never saw a seperat release to this date.

To the 'bay it is!

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Darnok

[Aaranis]

They'd have to sculpt a new separate mold for these models, it's very expensive to do. So the release of the model separately is unlikely, has they won't cover the costs of the new mold with the model, as most NH players already have it. It's going to be like that with most boxed set exclusives as long as the sprues are all mixed up together.

[Gitzdee]

This would be ok if thats the case. But i just did a quick search and they have made 3 guardian of souls sculpts and not one of them is a single model release. I think this in kind of weird. They could easily make one for a release.  And i think they made some more alternate sculpts for other leaders too. I wouldnt care as much if its like the Underworlds models where they just slap some half decent rules on a model for AoS and call it a day. But these are really good units that get played by many people as far as my knowledge goes on Nighthaunt armies.  I just dont get why they would do this to be honest.
But we are getting an awesome looking new model at least :D.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Iksdee

[Sception]

There's just so many terrible aspects of collecting nighthaunts, going all the way back to the soul wars box and its aweful model selection.  As one of the starter box factions for 2e, Nighthaunt should have been on of the friendliest & most comfortable armies to pick up, but instead it's one of the worst.  No start collecting box.  Starter box set half full of nigh unplayable models, but that you still need to buy because there are fundamental options in it that you can't get anywhere else.  Redundant or just bad units sprinkled throughout the line.  Strong units nerfed because they were too good in some other faction.  Awkward batch sizes everywhere.  Hideously overpriced fundamental core infantry.  Battletome patches hidden in obscure places (a limited edition store exclusive model, box set of generic endless spells, a random issue of white dwarf) so if you want to run the army effectively you need to rely on secret knowledge of outside sources with inconsistent legality.

2e overall was pretty clean.  Pretty playable.  But Nighthaunts, one of the headline factions of the entire edition, were a mess from start to finish.  As though nobody at GW ever stopped to consider for even a moment what the experience of collecting and playing the faction would be like.

here's hoping things improve in third edition.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Sception

[Gitzdee]

Haha its been worse than i thought. Lets hope things get better.
I do like the faction the most for death and i really hope they expand upon the idea in the future.  
Something besides the generic ghosts like more haunted vehicles (black coach) would be awesome.

[Vasshpit]

1 hour ago, Iksdee said:

This would be ok if thats the case. But i just did a quick search and they have made 3 guardian of souls sculpts and not one of them is a single model release. I think this in kind of weird. They could easily make one for a release.  And i think they made some more alternate sculpts for other leaders too. I wouldnt care as much if its like the Underworlds models where they just slap some half decent rules on a model for AoS and call it a day. But these are really good units that get played by many people as far as my knowledge goes on Nighthaunt armies.  I just dont get why they would do this to be honest.
But we are getting an awesome looking new model at least :D.

3 GoS? What's the third? 

[lare2]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

There's just so many terrible aspects of collecting nighthaunts,

Don't forget random scenic bases on some models. To get a consistent theme across your army you have to either kitbash all your bases or hack away at the models... both options do not appeal to me in the slightest. I found this all really annoying. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by lare2

[Sception]

They're a cool army.  Great lore, some fantastic models.  The Coach is jaw dropping.  Reikenor is one of my favorite character models out there.  And there's definitely a fresh and unique play experience that comes from an entire army with fly and ethereal, half of which can deep strike.  Particularly among death armies in AoS and undead armies in warhammer going back even before that, since warhammer undead are more typically slow and individually fragile, relying on recursion for sustain.

There's a lot to like about Nighthaunt conceptually, and you can make decent armies with their rules, albeit fairly inconsistent and luck dependent ones.  But rules and packaging wise they need a pretty heavy reboot so that you can collect and play them without feeling like you're fighting against yourself as much as your opponents.  Fingers crossed.

[EnixLHQ]

This is how I ended up with nearly 300 models...

I'm not exaggerating.

[lare2]

Finally! TGA's been down for me all week. Bloody annoying when that happens. 

But what a week. All sorts going on. Preordered Broken Realms and new character. Loving the new character's rules and definitely think he's got milage being dropped in with a unit of your choice. 

The new allegiance rules seem very meh though. Also, the reference to temporal translocation is a real kick in the teeth. Hopefully though it means the alternative guardian might be making an appearance again. 

[dmorley21]

58 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Finally! TGA's been down for me all week. Bloody annoying when that happens. 

But what a week. All sorts going on. Preordered Broken Realms and new character. Loving the new character's rules and definitely think he's got milage being dropped in with a unit of your choice. 

The new allegiance rules seem very meh though. Also, the reference to temporal translocation is a real kick in the teeth. Hopefully though it means the alternative guardian might be making an appearance again. 

Yeah, it has been an interesting week and a bummer this site was down. 

I have to say that while some updates are nice, the Nighthaunt stuff is a disappointment after seeing what happened for Idoneth and Nurgle in the previous two books. All of the procession rules are just taken from battalions while the warscrolls aren't anything to write home about either. It's pretty clear that there's a different rules writer here, and the results just don't change Nighthaunt's power level in a meaningful way. Here's some thoughts on each update:

The Emerald Host 

The first ability is okay, but only applicable to some games really when the opponent has a character you really want to target. I also don't think it will work against anything Ethereal or similar.  Having Hexwraiths do what they do in Dolorous Guard without the battalion tax is great, I just wish they weren't the one model that obviously doesn't fit into the range. The command trait and artefact are bad. The command trait only works on Knights of Shrouds, so only two models and typically I wouldn't want those to be my general especially with the buff in this battalion. I'll just take Olynder, so I guess it won't really affect me. It just pales in comparison to Ruler of the Spirit Hosts. The artefact... is just bad. 

This procession makes Lady Olynder very tanky as we know from Dolorous Guard. It gives survivability to any general. It also partners well with the Death Riders battalion, making Hexwraiths an actual force, especially at their cost. 

Reikenor's Condemned

Okay, so you get The Condemned and Chain Horde battalion rules for free and they also apply to Glaivewrath Stalkers, which you still won't be taking. I'm not sure what making Reikenor act like your general really does for you in the big scheme of things. The Command Ability probably won't ever be used. The artefact is solid, especially on a Guardian of Souls. 

If you want to run blocks of Chainrasp Hordes, this is a no brainer. Otherwise, I struggle to see lists that will fit into it. 

Krulghast Excruciator

6 wounds is nice, since we all assumed it would be 5. Not really difference making, but nice. For a buff hero, you'd like to see an ability baked in that doesn't rely on making an attack. But the shooting attack is decent and this model at least opens up different strategies. I think the main strategy will be deepstriking it with a unit and then trying to give the unit a 5++. I'll have to play with the wholly within 12", but there's some good options here. You could also use this and another one or a unit of Chainghasts to snipe an enemy small support hero. Not a game changer, but something different which is cool. 

Dreadscythe Harridans

The warscroll changes are fine, but uninspired. However, with their points going back up to 90 for 5, they've gone ahead and made them redundant again. I used them in every list before because they had good output and were one of the cheapest units in the book. Now they're back to being more expensive than Grimghasts and the same as Bladegheists. Just no big picture vision here. 

The Sorrowmourn Choir

Okay, so for the most part this is Dolorous Guard with two units of Myrmourns, a unit of Harridans, and Lady O. Except, this is actually quite a bit worse. First off, Myrmourns and Harridans now are too expensive for you to want to really use them as bodyguards. Hexwraiths are 13 pts a wound. Harridans are 18/16 while Myrmourns are 17.5. None of them are battleline either. 

Now the making Lady O act as a general while not being your general is actually quite good, just not in The Emerald Host. It means you can run Ruler of the Spirit Hosts and Lady O's command ability together for more resurrection power. It also means you can run that and a teleporting Harrow. That has some play, just not in the Procession I'd want it to be in. 

 

Overall, I'm disheartened by this update. It helps, sure. Not saying it doesn't help. It's just a lack of creativity/inspiration that we have seen for other armies in terms of updates. As we all know, there seems to be different rules writers who don't communicate in meaningful ways, and it seems we got the one who wrote the Slaanesh and Sylvaneth stuff. Still, there's some cool stuff here. I'm excited to see Death Riders in the Emerald Procession for one. 

 

[lare2]

35 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I have to say that while some update....

Nice summary of the updates. Cheers mate. 

[Pazour]

49 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Yeah, it has been an interesting week and a bummer this site was down. 

I have to say that while some updates are nice, the Nighthaunt stuff is a disappointment after seeing what happened for Idoneth and Nurgle in the previous two books. All of the procession rules are just taken from battalions while the warscrolls aren't anything to write home about either. It's pretty clear that there's a different rules writer here, and the results just don't change Nighthaunt's power level in a meaningful way. Here's some thoughts on each update:

The Emerald Host 

The first ability is okay, but only applicable to some games really when the opponent has a character you really want to target. I also don't think it will work against anything Ethereal or similar.  Having Hexwraiths do what they do in Dolorous Guard without the battalion tax is great, I just wish they weren't the one model that obviously doesn't fit into the range. The command trait and artefact are bad. The command trait only works on Knights of Shrouds, so only two models and typically I wouldn't want those to be my general especially with the buff in this battalion. I'll just take Olynder, so I guess it won't really affect me. It just pales in comparison to Ruler of the Spirit Hosts. The artefact... is just bad. 

This procession makes Lady Olynder very tanky as we know from Dolorous Guard. It gives survivability to any general. It also partners well with the Death Riders battalion, making Hexwraiths an actual force, especially at their cost. 

Reikenor's Condemned

Okay, so you get The Condemned and Chain Horde battalion rules for free and they also apply to Glaivewrath Stalkers, which you still won't be taking. I'm not sure what making Reikenor act like your general really does for you in the big scheme of things. The Command Ability probably won't ever be used. The artefact is solid, especially on a Guardian of Souls. 

If you want to run blocks of Chainrasp Hordes, this is a no brainer. Otherwise, I struggle to see lists that will fit into it. 

Krulghast Excruciator

6 wounds is nice, since we all assumed it would be 5. Not really difference making, but nice. For a buff hero, you'd like to see an ability baked in that doesn't rely on making an attack. But the shooting attack is decent and this model at least opens up different strategies. I think the main strategy will be deepstriking it with a unit and then trying to give the unit a 5++. I'll have to play with the wholly within 12", but there's some good options here. You could also use this and another one or a unit of Chainghasts to snipe an enemy small support hero. Not a game changer, but something different which is cool. 

Dreadscythe Harridans

The warscroll changes are fine, but uninspired. However, with their points going back up to 90 for 5, they've gone ahead and made them redundant again. I used them in every list before because they had good output and were one of the cheapest units in the book. Now they're back to being more expensive than Grimghasts and the same as Bladegheists. Just no big picture vision here. 

The Sorrowmourn Choir

Okay, so for the most part this is Dolorous Guard with two units of Myrmourns, a unit of Harridans, and Lady O. Except, this is actually quite a bit worse. First off, Myrmourns and Harridans now are too expensive for you to want to really use them as bodyguards. Hexwraiths are 13 pts a wound. Harridans are 18/16 while Myrmourns are 17.5. None of them are battleline either. 

Now the making Lady O act as a general while not being your general is actually quite good, just not in The Emerald Host. It means you can run Ruler of the Spirit Hosts and Lady O's command ability together for more resurrection power. It also means you can run that and a teleporting Harrow. That has some play, just not in the Procession I'd want it to be in. 

 

Overall, I'm disheartened by this update. It helps, sure. Not saying it doesn't help. It's just a lack of creativity/inspiration that we have seen for other armies in terms of updates. As we all know, there seems to be different rules writers who don't communicate in meaningful ways, and it seems we got the one who wrote the Slaanesh and Sylvaneth stuff. Still, there's some cool stuff here. I'm excited to see Death Riders in the Emerald Procession for one. 

 

Where could one find these subfactions to look at?

[calcysimon]

Excruciator point cost?? 

[dmorley21]

4 minutes ago, Pazour said:

Where could one find these subfactions to look at?

Just now, calcysimon said:

Excruciator point cost?? 

120 pts

I saw them leaked on the Nighthaunt Facebook group... been there with TGA down. Some reviewers have them though and have been going through them. Goonhammer, Sprue and Brews, Facehammer, etc. 

[Heijoshin]

Guys and gals, can you take the"Ruler of the Spirit hosts" Command trait in Reikenor's Condemned, As technically the subfaction does not have an associated command trait you are forced to take?

Edited April 17, 2021 by Heijoshin

[PraetorDragoon]

1 hour ago, Heijoshin said:

Guys and gals, can you take the"Ruler of the Spirit hosts" Command trait in Reikenor's Condemned, As technically the subfaction does not have an associated command trait you are forced to take?

You can.

[Sception]

I'm pretty disappointed, particularly with the dreadscythe changes.  A couple barely-buffs to a unit that was almost ok... combined with a points increase to make them worse than they started.  Still nothing to meaningfully stand out from other, better ghostly units, particularly bladegheists.  A new battletome can't be far away, if this is a preview of what it will look like, that's not very promising.

[Frowny]

I too am a little disappointed. There are a ton of missed opportunity. Even the new support hero is quite a miss.   Good support heroes have ~50 pts/ unit of support (prayer, spell, command ability etc.). Like the fungoid cave shaman (spell + CP), hag queen (prayer + witchbrew). He just doesn't offer enough for 110 points, just like almost all of nighthaunt support type heroes. 

A ton of units needed some love and didn't get it.. Even the harridans with their new scroll remain redundant, and may or may not be the strongest but it won't really fix the problem of their being a single best option and a lot of redundant picks for 1 wound medium infantry. Glavewraith stalkers could really have used a new warscroll to make them at all usable.  

Still some thoughts/observations

1) Emerald Host is mostly a straight buff- no longer needing to buy all the battalions gives you ~200 pts to work with in those lists. I'm unsure if it can be stacked with the actual battalion but that could be good, getting 4 attacks on the charge with both weapons. 

2) The only really worthwhile command abilities are on Knights of Shrouds or Orlynder. to make use of the emerald host command trait for a free CP, you either need to then take the lackluster artifact on the knight of shrouds or miss your artifact entirely on Orlyander. A little annoying

3) the +6 move in chainrasps is interesting.  6 base + 6 CP +3 pendent =15 inches before doing anything else. Excellent t1 charge odds on a 18 inch start board, and make a solid attempt at it on a 24 inch board. Either run them to block in your opponent and neuter their first turn or hope for a long charge. They would kill most screens and then be a screen themselves, allowing you to set up stronger charges or take objectives. 

4) chainrasps with rerolling hits and +1 wound from a guardian of souls and spirit torment and an attempt at resurrecting 2d3+d6 seem both pretty killy and pretty sturdy. Quite a few points though. And then why not just play legions of Nagash and do that to some skeletons which you can wholesale resurrect. 

Overall, I think a buff for the army, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem of not knowing what its doing.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Frowny

[Neck-Romantic]

-woops- found em

They arent bad. As someone who takes zero chainrasps Im pretty meh on the fact they kinda got so much attention

Edited April 17, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[lare2]

Has anyone actually seen the new dreadscythe warscroll? I've only seen their abilities. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Getting the bofyguard feature built in is totally a bonus, even if you dont field rasps