AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Bayul]

22 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Looking closer at the model, he seems to be pulling out ethereal energy from the skull.

Could we maybe have a hero with a resurrection spell or ability? Maybe a summon?

 

13 hours ago, Sutek said:

A summoning mechanic may be just that.

Does he really look like a summoner to you? He has the tools of a torturer and seems to either gather information or another useful extract like Illuminor Szeras in 40K. The extract's color is explicitly not like the usual ethereal energy, so I doubt that the summons a ghost from this skull.

[Saxon]

On 2/21/2021 at 11:21 AM, EnixLHQ said:

Looking closer at the model, he seems to be pulling out ethereal energy from the skull.

Could we maybe have a hero with a resurrection spell or ability? Maybe a summon?

Sadly it looks like another mediocre hero with a low wounds characteristic that will get shot off the board..... just like our existing heroes  

[Neck-Romantic]

My hope is not another easily-sniped hero per se but perhaps another semi-elite unit like the chainghasts that suppliment existing heroes. The name also implies it isnt a hero as well.

 

And even if it is another hero it wouldnt take much to help us out a ton. "Once per turn; if an enemy unit loses one or more models in combat you may strike first in combat on the next battle round vs all enemy models of that type" or "once an enemy unit has lost all its models, for the rest of the game every other enemy unit consisting of models of the same type take 1 additional wound per unsaved wound roll" as the tortureghast learns their battle tactics etc etc

Edited February 22, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[Vasshpit]

Or it makes Bladegheist or Dreadsythe battline....

[Sception]

Iirc, the presentation confirmed that it was a hero, mentioning it and the stormcast guy as one of several new stand alone heroes for various factions that are going to be released in the later broken realms books.

So yeah, another 5 wound nighthaunt support hero, to join the guardian, torment, executioner, infantry KoS, and probably some others I'm forgetting because that's a pretty over-represented niche.  It's a torturer, so probably some kind of debuff aura as its defining feature to try to set it apart from the rest.

[lare2]

If ever there was an AoS army which would benefit from a 40k elite slot it would be NH. 

[Aaranis]

Well I'm always open for more choices, don't want to end up like Fyreslayers. I'm confident a book is in the works and our beloved ghosts will be more threatening !

[LordPrometheus]

 Really excited about the new hero, I'm hopeful that it signals the launch of a new tome as well, but it could just be some Broken Realms stuff is coming too. 

[Evil Bob]

5 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

 Really excited about the new hero, I'm hopeful that it signals the launch of a new tome as well, but it could just be some Broken Realms stuff is coming too. 

This was the exact same hope I felt at the reveal.  Because there isn’t enough mary-sue juice GW Devs could pump into a new hero to fix the endemic problems in the army book.

[dmorley21]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:39 AM, Vasshpit said:

Or it makes Bladegheist or Dreadsythe battline....

I really don't think this would improve Nighthaunt at all. One of the few things that Nighthaunt has going for it as an army is a great selection of battleline. There's many a game where I don't even bring non-battleline units. Bladegheists are simply better on paper than in actual gameplay in my experience, while Harridans being battleline would be fine, but wouldn't really change much. 

On 2/21/2021 at 5:17 AM, SleeperAgent said:

Unless this guy has something along the lines of "All heroes within 12-18" have the Ruler of the Spirit Hosts command trait" he won't be enough. Need the new book desperately.

Yeah I agree here. I'd say the army could use another caster that isn't a special character, but even then it wouldn't be anything that would change the game for us. And that's fine, I don't really think an army should have one auto-include hero that makes or breaks their lists. 

[Sception]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:39 AM, Vasshpit said:

Or it makes Bladegheist or Dreadsythe battline....

I'm also not convinced this would help much.  If anything, Nighthaunts many various 'semi-elite melee ghost infantry' units in the faction have more useless redundancy than the 5 wound support heroes.  battleline bladegheists and dreadsythes aren't really going to do anything significant that grimghasts aren't already doing.  The existing units need to be changed in a way that makes them more mechanically distinct.  Moving more of them to battleline does, if anything, the opposite.

As for what would be a meaningful addition to the line... I don't know.  Maybe another cavalry option?  There's only one of those so far, and the models for it are pretty meh.  Maybe a big guy unit, something in the morghast range?  Maybe a big monster like a ghost dragon or the like?  Maybe more dedicated ranged stuff, like a banshee unit that is actually about screaming?  Iunno.  Honestly, the nighthaunt model range feels a bit over-stuffed if anything.

It's not models they need at all.  Just rules.  Rules to make Olynder actually good.  Rules to make the coach actually good.  Rules to give you actual reasons to field one of their many units over any of the others beyond liking the model or being in a particular formation.

[Zashier29]

How much is the power difference between a 40 chainrasp blob and a 30 chainrasp blob? I guess assume they have the support of either a Spirit Torment or a Guardian of Soul, but not both?

[Evil Bob]

That depends heavily on if the target has five or more models.

Other elements include number of contacts possible.  Even if the Chainwrasp Horde has more dice in theory they still lose two for every model outside of range.  Grimghasts have a longer reach and base which even out somewhat.  Rend will matter more if the target has a decent save.

With the Nighthaunt Batyletome I don’t run large units since it messes the aura buffs painfully so.

 

[dmorley21]

7 hours ago, Zashier29 said:

How much is the power difference between a 40 chainrasp blob and a 30 chainrasp blob? I guess assume they have the support of either a Spirit Torment or a Guardian of Soul, but not both?

No matter the size, Chainrasps don't have offensive power. They're much more a defensive unit that is there to sit on objectives. So you get 10 extra bodies to do just that for only 40 points. I like to run Chainrasps is small units of 10 or in full blobs. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Any word yet on the torturer ghost?

[Sception]

26 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Any word yet on the torturer ghost?

Just that it's coming.  No news yet that I'm aware of for when exactly it's supposed to arrive or what exactly it'll be able to do when it gets here.

[Aaranis]

I don't believe he's going to be released before several months, these previews are shown really early.

[Zashier29]

I just played a demoralizing game against my mate's Reapers of Vengeance Khorne list, in which it feels that my heroes, atleast one but sometimes two, are blown up by his Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage's outrageous Carnage. How can I protect my Heroes better from this 10" move, double fight hero with an 8" bubble of 4 mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6?

 

[Saxon]

10 hours ago, Zashier29 said:

I just played a demoralizing game against my mate's Reapers of Vengeance Khorne list, in which it feels that my heroes, atleast one but sometimes two, are blown up by his Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage's outrageous Carnage. How can I protect my Heroes better from this 10" move, double fight hero with an 8" bubble of 4 mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6?

 

In death armies I've found I've always had to bubble my heroes. Old opponents were seraphon with lords of space and time and gloominess who could also teleport. I hate that mechanic. Feels like I have to waste a unit to bubble a hero

[dmorley21]

15 hours ago, Zashier29 said:

I just played a demoralizing game against my mate's Reapers of Vengeance Khorne list, in which it feels that my heroes, atleast one but sometimes two, are blown up by his Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage's outrageous Carnage. How can I protect my Heroes better from this 10" move, double fight hero with an 8" bubble of 4 mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6?

 

I think the thing to know about Nighthaunt, and this goes for everyone that is complaining about their heroes getting sniped, is that your heroes aren't meant to survive. And really, that's fine. Heroes are support units for the army, not the main threat that your gameplan should be based around. If it's your heroes getting blown up, then it's not your units, which are what will win you the game. 

The exceptions in my mind are Lady Olynder, Reikenor if you take Cogs, and a Harrow if it's your general and you're planning to use spectral summons on later turns. Lady O and Reik both can be made very survivable by taking the Dolorous Guard battalion, and the Harrow can literally hide anywhere on the board you want it to.

[Neck-Romantic]

It would help if our heroes were semi intended to be disposable if they were allowed in multiple. Like you may take 1-2 tomb banshees or cairn wraiths as a single hero choice

[Sception]

If your heroes aren't meant to still be alive once the fighting starts, there's not much point to be taking them in the first place.  They're not tougher than the units, you're not buying more survuvability by fielding them if the opponent snipes them first.  They don't strike me as efficient distractions.  Am I wrong?

Edited March 1, 2021 by Sception

[LordPrometheus]

On 2/28/2021 at 8:04 AM, dmorley21 said:

I think the thing to know about Nighthaunt, and this goes for everyone that is complaining about their heroes getting sniped, is that your heroes aren't meant to survive. And really, that's fine. Heroes are support units for the army, not the main threat that your gameplan should be based around. If it's your heroes getting blown up, then it's not your units, which are what will win you the game. 

 

 That's ridiculous. Heroes are an incredibly important support piece, and NH in particular simply doesn't do much of anything without their heroes. Their heroes are the glue that hold the fragile army together. They don't even get their death save without them. 5 wounds and a 4 up save is pretty pathetic these days.

Seraphon doesn't say that about their heroes.

Slaanesh doesn't say that about their heroes.

OBR doesn't say that about their heroes.

Etc, etc, etc.

 Very few armies have "disposable" heroes" where you don't really care if they die. 

[Rors]

Just bought a collection of second hand models to make a NH army. Have an idea in mind but I have no idea if it'll work. More of a fun list than competitive but suggestion of tweaks that might improve it would be great.

- Olynder

- Reiknor

- Arkhan (Ally)

- Guardian of Souls

- 3x 10 chainrasp

- 4x 12 Myrmourn Banshees

Endless spells:

- palisade

- grave tide.

The idea is to utterly dominate the magic phase and dispell my own endless spells when I need to add punch to the Banshees, who will be the primary focus of all the healing.

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Rors
missed a unit

[dmorley21]

9 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

 That's ridiculous. Heroes are an incredibly important support piece, and NH in particular simply doesn't do much of anything without their heroes. Their heroes are the glue that hold the fragile army together. They don't even get their death save without them. 5 wounds and a 4 up save is pretty pathetic these days.

Seraphon doesn't say that about their heroes.

Slaanesh doesn't say that about their heroes.

OBR doesn't say that about their heroes.

Etc, etc, etc.

 Very few armies have "disposable" heroes" where you don't really care if they die. 

Yeah, my comment didn't come out the way I wanted. I need to clarify what I’m saying:

Some armies have heroes that they revolve around. If those heroes die, the game is lost. I’m thinking of the likes of Lumineth, Legions of Nagash, Hallowheart, Ossiarch, Seraphon, Archaon lists, etc. 

Some armies have heroes that are simply the bulk of their army. Lists running multiple greater daemons are examples. 

Then there’s other armies where the heroes aren’t the essential component of the army, they’re there for support. That’s how I view Nighthaunt heroes. They’re not the only army like that either. Kharadron Overlords and Tempest Eye are two examples that jump to mind that are fairly competitive. 

I never want my Nighthaunt heroes to die, and I never think their purpose is to die. I just go into my games knowing most or all of my heroes won’t make it until the end of turn 5, and knowing that that’s okay and that I can still win if my heroes get deleted. Almost all of the Nighthaunt heroes have great utility, and their deathless spirits bubble and ability to fish for WoT by burning command points are great. But if they get targeted and deleted, the game is not lost for me. 

Nighthaunt’s best abilities are great movement, Ethereal, Fly, Wave of Terror, and From the Underworlds They Come. None of those are hero reliant, though some are certainly boosted by heroes. 

So I just want to say that if you have a hero get shot on turn one or deleted by something like a Bloodthirster, you can still certainly win! The trick is to take 4-6 heroes so you have some redundancy and to know that your troops are the core of your army, not your heroes. 

Bottom line though is the army overall needs help.