AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Sauriv]

1 hour ago, ArgyBargy said:

Thanks for the detailed reply. So at 200 rasps what kind of support can we then fit in. You mentioned the knight of shrouds and guardian of souls.

If you go with 200 rasps that will leave you with 600p left for heroes and other stuff. I would prioritize a KoSoES (with pendant of the fell wind for +3" aoe movement buff ) and a dreadblade (as general). The thing with guardian of souls and spirit torment is that their buffs only reach 12" and the units need to be wholly within that range. I guess it could be possible to have a ST and GoS that tag along with a rasp unit but bufging multiple units can be hard. 

But i would probably go with olynder and Reikenor instead to have some magic and mortal wound output. 

 

So the following heroes would i take:

Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)

Dreadblade Harrow (90)- General

Reikenor the Grimhailer (160)

This leave you will 30p to spare for some endless spell or a decent chance of getting a triumph. 

 

Or if you dont like Olynder and Reikenor can you change them for two Spirit Torment an one Guardian of souls. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Sauriv

[Thamalys]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:04 AM, Joseph Mackay said:

Went to a tournament this past weekend (here in New Zealand we’re no longer in COVID lockdowns), this is the list I took (I’m also taking it to a teams tournament this weekend coming

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (180)
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spectral Tether
Lord Executioner (80)
- Artefact: Slitter  
Reikenor the Grimhailer (160)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Lifestealer
Spirit Torment (120)
- Artefact: Mirror of Screaming Souls  

Battleline
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)

Units
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
5 x Bladegheist Revenants (90)
5 x Bladegheist Revenants (90)
2 x Chainghasts (70)

Behemoths
Black Coach (220)

Battalions
Deathriders (130)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
 

was my worse tournament result, 1-4 and last place (technically 3rd from last as 2 players dropped out/didn’t finish throughout the event)
I blame the dice I was using 😂 as my luck got progressively better throughout the weekend as I swapped out my dice

Round 1 - Starstrike vs Stormcast (Hammers Of Sigmar). This one was a friend so we grudged for round 1. I did much worse than my previous games with him over the past month. Was tabled and didn’t get any auxiliary objectives. Gotrek was the main problem, was unable to ignore him.

Round 2 - Focal Points vs Bonereapers (Null Myraid). Combats didn’t go my way (was still using the dice from the first game). Was tabled and no auxiliary objectives.

Round 3 - Total Conquest vs Ogors. Changed my dice and had a much more enjoyable game 😂 unfortunately I still lost with no auxiliary objectives but I wasn’t tabled and the score was much closer.

Round 4 - The Blades Edge vs Nighthaunt. Changed my dice and and had much better luck. I managed to do more damage than he did to me, but I was reluctant to allow him to double turn me so I always took the turns meaning he got to kill objectives and I struggled to take them. I lost but scored one auxiliary objective.

Round 5 - Forcing The Hand vs Gloomspite Gitz (troggoth list). I did way more damage to him than he did to me, and due to his low number of units he struggled with the objectives. I won but no auxiliary objectives.

moral of the story for me is to always use my black and green gw skaven dice 😂

Great to hear that you guys down there are actually doing tournaments again!

Alright, so it sounds like you didn't exactly have a blast with our Ghosts this time... given that you faced a rather diverse array of opponents, what would you say was the main weakness of your list (I'm not saying there is one)?

At first glance, it sounds as if your list/playstyle was aiming to actually inflict some proper damage - or maybe is just me talking nonsense? I'm saying this as that's a very different way to play Nighthaunt compared to my lists/style, where I know I am going to get tabled in most cases and I'm not aiming to deal any solid amount of damage at all. To be clear: I never went better than 3 - 2 with Nighthaunt, so it's not like my way is better - at all! I'm just curious, I'd be very keen to know more about an "offensive" build - if that was what you had in mind but again, I might be talking nonsense.

One of my long-time laments is that Kurdoss is worthless... but perhaps that's not your experience? Tell me more!

[Tropical Ghost General]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:04 AM, Joseph Mackay said:

this is the list I took

I'm curious why you chose Lady O as your general and not a dreadblade? The movement shenanigans of the dreadblade and the generic command ability to draw units to the general is one of our top, if not the top, movement shenanigan. So what was the allure of letting the lady led the pack?

[Btimmy]

I agree with @Tropical Ghost General. I find that a strong majority of my wins comes from TPing the DB harrow for free, then CP'ing a unit of like 40 chain rasps into the enemies backline is usually enough to steal a point. Bonus points for using cogs and making the 9 inch charge only a 7 inch one with a reroll available if necessary. 

[Joseph Mackay]

13 hours ago, Thamalys said:

Great to hear that you guys down there are actually doing tournaments again!

Alright, so it sounds like you didn't exactly have a blast with our Ghosts this time... given that you faced a rather diverse array of opponents, what would you say was the main weakness of your list (I'm not saying there is one)?

At first glance, it sounds as if your list/playstyle was aiming to actually inflict some proper damage - or maybe is just me talking nonsense? I'm saying this as that's a very different way to play Nighthaunt compared to my lists/style, where I know I am going to get tabled in most cases and I'm not aiming to deal any solid amount of damage at all. To be clear: I never went better than 3 - 2 with Nighthaunt, so it's not like my way is better - at all! I'm just curious, I'd be very keen to know more about an "offensive" build - if that was what you had in mind but again, I might be talking nonsense.

One of my long-time laments is that Kurdoss is worthless... but perhaps that's not your experience? Tell me more!

Due to the teams format of the next tournament I was attending, we couldn’t double up on warscrolls amongst the team and someone else had taken Chainrasps. So I was trying to do a sort of elite hard hitting list, hence the Bladeghiests (I decided to run the same list for both, however teams has now been canceled due to a resurgence of COVID).

id played this list for about a month before the tournament, and based on those games I’d honestly say I just had a lot of bad luck.

Kurdoss was one of my heaviest hitters, when I could get him into combat. His cp stealing is hit and miss, I’ve had games where he’s stolen every cp and games where he’s obviously fallen asleep 😂

[Joseph Mackay]

12 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I'm curious why you chose Lady O as your general and not a dreadblade? The movement shenanigans of the dreadblade and the generic command ability to draw units to the general is one of our top, if not the top, movement shenanigan. So what was the allure of letting the lady led the pack?

I did consider the Dreadblade for exactly that reason, and in at least one game that would have given me the win, but I chose Olynder due to her command ability that I didn’t end up using 😂

[Tropical Ghost General]

6 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Bonus points for using cogs and making the 9 inch charge only a 7 inch one with a reroll available if necessary.

I honestly feel that cogs is a trap. Trying to get a 9" charge from a deepstrike is too risky. Cogs makes it a 7" yes, but it's normally then active with extra movement going into your opponent's phase, and having stuff like 16" moving eels with a +2" charge (or anything else having the +2" move & +2" charge) is painful to stomach when it then hits into you, as we don't have the resilience to survive that kind of onslaught 

Personally I find that the teleporting dreadblade is great for bringing units out of trouble or setting them up for getting where they need to be in the next turn.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Tropical Ghost General

[Btimmy]

You only speed up cogs when you are going to go for your big deepstrike drops, other times you just slow down time to give Riekenor an extra spell to cast. I think increasing the consistency of making a 9" charge is essential, otherwise your deepstrikes are not threatening at all as you will statistically not get them in when you drop them, leaving you to hope for a double or for them to just engage your weak units (referring to all of NH, we don't exactly have powerhouse units).

[Btimmy]

On an unrelated note, I am curious what people think of a rule change that I think would fit NH perfectly and bring them up in power slightly, with no other changes to the army really necessary. 

[Sauriv]

1 hour ago, Btimmy said:

On an unrelated note, I am curious what people think of a rule change that I think would fit NH perfectly and bring them up in power slightly, with no other changes to the army really necessary. 

I would argue that this is too powerful, to completely shut down any defense against bravery debuffs would be super frustrating to face. This would be defeating to armies with low bravery hordes like stabbas and elit armies. 

As an example:

a unit of rockgut troggoths with bravery 5 are often played in units of 6. If we had this passive rule i would always play with horrorghast for an easy additional - 2 bravery debuff. Killing one trogg and cast the spell would make the other ones start fleeing an a roll of 3+. Rolling a 6 and have 4 troggs (16 wounds) flee because of us dealing 4 wounds without any real way to prevent it but to never be in combat, this would be too good according to me. 

I would instead suggest a "shut down bravery immunity" effect on a targeting spell or as a bubble effect for a command ability on a new scary hero. This would restrict our use of it and allow our opponent to be able to react and counter play. 

[Btimmy]

My counter argument to this is that lower bravery units should be punishable by armies that exploit it. Being able to ignore a weakness of a unit with a surplus of command points (like most armies have) continues the trend of making the BS phase essentially irrelevant. Furthermore, the ability requires that NH units be within a certain range, if we try to engage in combat, Troggoths will just murder all the ghosts, and thus they won't be affected. 

[Thamalys]

Apologies for the interlude.

I just wanted to quickly share this: I just read the “Lady of Sorrow” book... which I enjoyed (I rarely enjoy Black Library stuff...). It’s still what I label as “simple” fantasy, but it’s very ruthless and properly evocative. It gave me some serious motivation to try and include Lady Olynder in my next list... just saying!

[Btimmy]

I love Lady O! I just wish we could still protect her with the dolorious guard. 

[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, Thamalys said:

Apologies for the interlude.

I just wanted to quickly share this: I just read the “Lady of Sorrow” book... which I enjoyed (I rarely enjoy Black Library stuff...). It’s still what I label as “simple” fantasy, but it’s very ruthless and properly evocative. It gave me some serious motivation to try and include Lady Olynder in my next list... just saying!

That book is in my stack of backlog reading. The model is on my shelf of backlog painting.

Sounds like both will soon move closer to the front of the line.

 

Thanks for the interlude!

[Bayul]

I am all for a bravery bomb or "low bravery matters" focus for Nighthaunt with passives accompanied by effects like Crypt Flayers' Death Scream:

Quote

Death Scream: Crypt Flayers can unleash an ultrasonic cry that can kill or debilitate their victims. Do not use the attack sequence for an attack made with a Death Scream. Instead roll 2D6. Subtract 2 if the target unit is more than 3" from the attacking model. If the result is higher than the target unit’s Bravery characteristic, the target unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the difference between its Bravery characteristic and the result.

It shouldn't be to clunky though. Nighthaunt armies should spread terror and punish low bravery units constantly throughout the phases and not just in the battleshock phase. In my opinion the battleshock phase is an aftermath from lost combatants and not by "being terrified" by spooky ghosts.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Bayul
missing word

[Btimmy]

Bravery literally is only relevant in the bs phase though, hence why I think nh should play in that space. Most of the current nh abilities also revolve around bs

[Thamalys]

8 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Bravery literally is only relevant in the bs phase though

I beg to differ.  A number of shooting and even melee attacks (thus tacking place in the shooting and fight phase, respectively), including the mechanism proposed above by @Bayul, do involve the bravery characteristic and their effect are resolved during either the shooting or fight phases. Thus, I think it's quite incorrect to state that bravery is only relevant during battleshock.

Having said that, there's no need to look at FEC's Crypt Flayers - our very own Tomb Banshee has the Ghostly Howl which is very much equivalent to the Death Scream discussed above. Personally, though, I don't consider mechanics relying on bravery to be efficient at all - too many factions with bravery ten or so around, and the effort of lowering that baseline to interesting values it's just too much of an investment in terms of points.

[Neck-Romantic]

I would love for them to expand our ability to manipulate bravery and cause our damage through it.

Having an army that is immune to rend, deals with elites through mortal wounds, and hordes with bravery bombs is why I picked NH in the first place; a very non-standard playstyle that had a very strong thematic element.

Your opponent really would get a sense of their army falling to fear and terror, chilling touches and soul-sucking spookyghosts rather than another hack and slash. Rather than spending their command points on maneuvers and attack bonuses they would be desperatley trying to rally their troops and strengthen their resolve.

 

Unfortunatly the bravy rules were lackluster and the power creep left us behind. I would very much like to see LoG's abilities and spells expanded in the next NH book.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Neck-Romantic

[Neck-Romantic]

And I still very much believe some strong and varied 'chapter' bonuses would go a very long way to giving us those tools (and the fact we still dont have any after 2 years is unfathomable)

Edited August 17, 2020 by Neck-Romantic

[Bayul]

13 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Most of the current nh abilities also revolve around bs

That's quite accurate.

[Btimmy]

7 hours ago, Thamalys said:

I beg to differ.  A number of shooting and even melee attacks (thus tacking place in the shooting and fight phase, respectively), including the mechanism proposed above by @Bayul, do involve the bravery characteristic and their effect are resolved during either the shooting or fight phases. Thus, I think it's quite incorrect to state that bravery is only relevant during battleshock.

Having said that, there's no need to look at FEC's Crypt Flayers - our very own Tomb Banshee has the Ghostly Howl which is very much equivalent to the Death Scream discussed above. Personally, though, I don't consider mechanics relying on bravery to be efficient at all - too many factions with bravery ten or so around, and the effort of lowering that baseline to interesting values it's just too much of an investment in terms of points.

Grand total of I believe exactly 2 bravery based attacks in the entire NH army isn't a great basis for arguing that bravery is relevant other than the BS phase. That combined with the Harridans -1 to hit if less than 6 wraps up the entirety of all non-BS phase based bravery effects that NH has, but I could be missing some. Point being, overwhelmingly bravery is used only for BS phase, and BS phase is overwhelmingly ignored. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

Best bravery based element is our command trait Terrifying Entity. Super OP cheese feast. I banned myself from ever using it after just one game because of how effective it was and the negative play experience it created for my opponent. 

(please note that the above comment is sarcasm) 

[Btimmy]

47 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Best bravery based element is our command trait Terrifying Entity. Super OP cheese feast. I banned myself from ever using it after just one game because of how effective it was and the negative play experience it created for my opponent. 

(please note that the above comment is sarcasm) 

I had to go read what it does because I've literally never seen anyone play with or against this trait. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Btimmy it's so bad it's depressingly hilarious 😂.

First your squishy 5-6 wound hero must survive a round of combat from the previous turn in order to meet the set up requirements.

Secondly you must beat the units bravery with a single D6, giving a 1/6 chance to activate if the target unit has bravery 7. Whilst anything bravery 8 or higher is immune 😂. And that's including our army wide -1 being added. 

I have scratched my head for 2yrs+ as to why it's only 1d6. If it was 2d6 it would still be bad but would have some potential. 

[Neck-Romantic]

There are a lot of things Ive been scratching my head about in the NH release 😂

Edited August 19, 2020 by Neck-Romantic