AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Tropical Ghost General]

3 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I'm very tempted to now run two units of 10 Harridans

When they roll well they are great but when they fluff, my god they fluff hard, maybe it's the weight of dice that do nothing 😂. 

But ultimately I think the question we need to be asking isn't what units shall we fit into our lists with the new points changes, it's what options can we use to deal with Teclis, with shooting lizards, with resilient OBR, etc...and I can't see harridans as being part of that solution unfortunately, in fact I've had a vision of the future..... 

"what is it that your future eyes have seen?" 

"Grims. Grims as far as you can see. At first I thought it was 2018 again, but no, it was 2020 and grims had come around full circle to once again be spammed, with every NH list taking a minimum of 90, and some as many as 150."

[EnixLHQ]

17 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

"what is it that your future eyes have seen?" 

"Grims. Grims as far as you can see. At first I thought it was 2018 again, but no, it was 2020 and grims had come around full circle to once again be spammed, with every NH list taking a minimum of 90, and some as many as 150."

I refuse to live in this dark and bleak world.

Unless it works. Then I'll run it a couple times and get bored.

[Joseph Mackay]

Firstly, people who were disappointed Grimghasts didn’t drop in points? Legions Of Nagash is at fault, it’s the reason they were increased in the first place, they simply perform better in Legions than in Nighthaunt and as such will probably always be punished because of this until/unless Legions goes away.

secondly, with the discussion on Dreadscythes and the points drop, does anyone else think Bladegheists should have dropped too?

[Tropical Ghost General]

@EnixLHQ it will work amd yes it is boring. It was dull to play with 2yrs ago, but matched play is less about rule of cool and more about spam what's good. Every army does it, eels, FLoSH, wytch aelves, mortek, etc.... 

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 minute ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Bladegheists should have dropped too?

In regards to the rest of our points, no. They are a very good unit and mince things reliably. 

In regards when compared to the basically ethereal lumineth stoneguard, yes, most definitely yes. 

[ACBelMutie]

31 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Firstly, people who were disappointed Grimghasts didn’t drop in points? Legions Of Nagash is at fault, it’s the reason they were increased in the first place, they simply perform better in Legions than in Nighthaunt and as such will probably always be punished because of this until/unless Legions goes away.

secondly, with the discussion on Dreadscythes and the points drop, does anyone else think Bladegheists should have dropped too?

Anyways, they were a good unit one year ago, but they aren't so good for they point cost at this moment.

Greetings.

[EnixLHQ]

50 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@EnixLHQ it will work amd yes it is boring. It was dull to play with 2yrs ago, but matched play is less about rule of cool and more about spam what's good. Every army does it, eels, FLoSH, wytch aelves, mortek, etc.... 

I know. Just sucks we appear to be falling back into that. And an old config at that.

[Garxia]

17 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

Writing off MSUs and start mass building Reapers because of this seem a little bit rushed. However there are 3(or 4 maybe?)  plans that allows extra points for Leaders so that might come in our favour (if our heroes get to live long enough).

I'm not writing off MSU, I've been playing it, but in this meta, at least where I play, anything with less that 30 wounds will evaporate (ethereal or not) in a turn.

Tzeencht flamers and magic spam, salamanders, Slanns dominating magic... mortal wounds and wounds are rainning...

And the future looks even worse, Lumineth are coming with ranged mortal wounds spam and strong magic. 20 Grimghast will do good damage, but when only 3 are left in the combat phase, theyll' do nothing sadly 😟

On the possitive side, I like the challenge of winning against odds, playing with our ghosties is learning hardmode AoS.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Garxia

[Sauriv]

MSU can be a good counter to high dmg units as well. Making it harder for the opponent to splitt the attacks effectively. 

[TheWilddog]

Man I hope GW releases this thing sometime in the future. It is the one Nighthaunt model I do not have. I always keep an eye out on ebay for one but the prices have jumped up into crazy town.  Last night one went for 120.00 US shipped. It is a supper cool model and I would love to snag one but I don't want to have to sell a kidney. 

 

What do you guys think? Will GW ever put this thing out in a wider release?  I think there is a chance especially given that the normal Guardian Of Souls is only available in the old starter set.  At some point they will have to provide another way to get a GoS.  

[dmorley21]

16 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

When they roll well they are great but when they fluff, my god they fluff hard, maybe it's the weight of dice that do nothing 😂. 

But ultimately I think the question we need to be asking isn't what units shall we fit into our lists with the new points changes, it's what options can we use to deal with Teclis, with shooting lizards, with resilient OBR, etc...and I can't see harridans as being part of that solution unfortunately, in fact I've had a vision of the future..... 

"what is it that your future eyes have seen?" 

"Grims. Grims as far as you can see. At first I thought it was 2018 again, but no, it was 2020 and grims had come around full circle to once again be spammed, with every NH list taking a minimum of 90, and some as many as 150."

Can you explain the current meta from a NH perspective a bit more? 

I haven't played since the Tzeentch/KO release and haven't followed Wrath of the Everchosen, Seraphon, or Lumineth at all. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

3 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Can you explain the current meta from a NH perspective a bit more?

So bare in mind that my gaming recently has been a bit mute due to covid,

Shooting lists. This is KO, Tzeentch and especially lizards. As so many of our units rely on hero support to function, whether that's for re-roll 1s, 6++ ward save, etc...and as they are so squishy, it's not very difficult for shooting armies to pop out heroes in turn. I lost 4 out of 6 in one turn to lizards in a recent game. The only reason the other two didn't die,w as because they were in the Underworlds waiting to come onto the table. Most of these armies have units that either have the range or have the ability to get into range very easily. There isn't much chance of blocking or countering it, it just happens. You have to hope that you can roll well.

Magic Doms. This is lizards, OBR, Tzeentch and soon to be lumineth (and in a way Khorne a little bit). We are a weak casting army, even with Riek, who gets 1 cast, and most of our spells are at 12" range. Teclis for example has unlimited unbinds, can auto-cast spells (varies depending on level, either four at 10+, two at 12+ or one auto which can't be unbound). In a game where you try and out play your opponent, saving your best spells to be cast when your opponent has ran out of unbinds, or is unable to reach you to unbind, these magic dom armies can basically shut down any magic. So if you are relying on being able to cast that spell, to buff the unit, to get them to do what you want, it's pointless even trying. And the mortal wound output from some of these casters is just gross. Again our squishy heroes have no chance of not getting one shooted. In fact it's even easier to take them out with magic, than it is via shooting.

Resilience. The new lumineth stoneguard (hammer dude) can be made to ignore up to -2 rend. iirc they can be given +1 save. As there is so little -3 rend in the game, this effectively makes them 3+ ethereal dudes. They are 100pts for 5 guys, but they are 2 wounds a pop, which makes our bladegheists awful by comparison. They are just one example of incredibly resilient units that have come around. Even with the new rules to stop ward saves stacking, there is a lot of units in the game that we can not take out in a turn, even with a 10+ charge. And these aren't fringe units, they are often core units, such as mortek. So it becomes a situation of how to engage with an enemy that can punch you in one hit, but it's going to take you multiple goes before they disappear.

There is some other bits and pieces, like Focal Points scoring extra for behemoths, which we just can't compete in as a mission, and being an army that is going to struggle without the WD battalions, stacking ward saves, realm artefacts. Leaders score more points, but all of ours die to a stiff breeze, so getting them in range to score more make them more likely to die in your opponent's turn. It's basically come to battleline are very good in GHB20. We have lots of good battleline options. Fly and fast movement is good, we have that in abundance. So we have to play to those strengths. 

[Vasshpit]

1 hour ago, TheWilddog said:

Man I hope GW releases this thing sometime in the future. It is the one Nighthaunt model I do not have. I always keep an eye out on ebay for one but the prices have jumped up into crazy town.  Last night one went for 120.00 US shipped. It is a supper cool model and I would love to snag one but I don't want to have to sell a kidney. 

 

What do you guys think? Will GW ever put this thing out in a wider release?  I think there is a chance especially given that the normal Guardian Of Souls is only available in the old starter set.  At some point they will have to provide another way to get a GoS.  

I do hope so. It's pictured in the freaking battletome and the one from soul wars constantly snaps the sword arm off. 

I ended up paying $60 for mine. 

To me it just seems as another clear indication that GW wasn't 100% sure what they were doing with Nighthaunt. 

Looking Forward to their next round though. Perhaps some updated Hexwraiths. 

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So bare in mind that my gaming recently has been a bit mute due to covid,

Shooting lists. This is KO, Tzeentch and especially lizards. As so many of our units rely on hero support to function, whether that's for re-roll 1s, 6++ ward save, etc...and as they are so squishy, it's not very difficult for shooting armies to pop out heroes in turn. I lost 4 out of 6 in one turn to lizards in a recent game. The only reason the other two didn't die,w as because they were in the Underworlds waiting to come onto the table. Most of these armies have units that either have the range or have the ability to get into range very easily. There isn't much chance of blocking or countering it, it just happens. You have to hope that you can roll well.

Magic Doms. This is lizards, OBR, Tzeentch and soon to be lumineth (and in a way Khorne a little bit). We are a weak casting army, even with Riek, who gets 1 cast, and most of our spells are at 12" range. Teclis for example has unlimited unbinds, can auto-cast spells (varies depending on level, either four at 10+, two at 12+ or one auto which can't be unbound). In a game where you try and out play your opponent, saving your best spells to be cast when your opponent has ran out of unbinds, or is unable to reach you to unbind, these magic dom armies can basically shut down any magic. So if you are relying on being able to cast that spell, to buff the unit, to get them to do what you want, it's pointless even trying. And the mortal wound output from some of these casters is just gross. Again our squishy heroes have no chance of not getting one shooted. In fact it's even easier to take them out with magic, than it is via shooting.

Resilience. The new lumineth stoneguard (hammer dude) can be made to ignore up to -2 rend. iirc they can be given +1 save. As there is so little -3 rend in the game, this effectively makes them 3+ ethereal dudes. They are 100pts for 5 guys, but they are 2 wounds a pop, which makes our bladegheists awful by comparison. They are just one example of incredibly resilient units that have come around. Even with the new rules to stop ward saves stacking, there is a lot of units in the game that we can not take out in a turn, even with a 10+ charge. And these aren't fringe units, they are often core units, such as mortek. So it becomes a situation of how to engage with an enemy that can punch you in one hit, but it's going to take you multiple goes before they disappear.

There is some other bits and pieces, like Focal Points scoring extra for behemoths, which we just can't compete in as a mission, and being an army that is going to struggle without the WD battalions, stacking ward saves, realm artefacts. Leaders score more points, but all of ours die to a stiff breeze, so getting them in range to score more make them more likely to die in your opponent's turn. It's basically come to battleline are very good in GHB20. We have lots of good battleline options. Fly and fast movement is good, we have that in abundance. So we have to play to those strengths. 

Thanks for sharing. There's probably going to be a lot more hypotheticals than actuals for the next little while due to COVID. 

The Dolorous Guard battalion really made me no longer fear shooting lists. I'm still hoping against hope that it stays, despite evidence seeming to point to that not being the case.  

I'd say our casting is average, not weak. Reikenor and a GoS can both get +'s to cast. Lady Olynder gets two casts. Midnight Tome is a great option - especially with small heroes being more worth it now. Slapping that on a Tomb Banshee or a Cairn Wraith makes for a nice little mage. Vampires are still good allies. My most recent list had 5-6 casts (with a double cast for Reik sometimes from slowing down Cogs). That being said, it's certainly not a strength either. Does Teclis get any bonus to his unbinds? 

The Lumineth Stoneguard sound problematic, but so were Mortek Guard/Witch Aelves/Phoenix Guard. I do like that they're 2 wound models, which makes it harder for them to hold objectives as that's what those resilient units are great at. 

Focal Points does annoy me as I still haven't been convinced on The Black Coach or Mourngul being strong additions and just overall because unlike leaders and battleline, access to behemoths is not as universal for armies. 

Overall though, I don't think we're in a worst spot than before the White Dwarf battalions. Which of course is not a great spot, but life's tough for a ghost. 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

[all the grim facts]

Don't forget Cities. A decent (not even good) shooting or magic focused list will nuke us off the table in short order.

Played a game this last weekend against Hallowheart that went half a turn. Lost priority, didn't have any terrain to block line of sight (pre-built). They buffed via spells, went to shooting, sniped every hero and destroyed most of my threat units. Over 60 wounds I couldn't shake. I conceded right then, no sense in wasting time.

[Tropical Ghost General]

37 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Don't forget Cities

But I did didn't I 🤦🏾‍♂️😂. Yes CoS are equally horrible 

[The_Dudemeister]

I found this in the Designer's Commentary of the Core Rules

Quote

Q: I have a Stormcast Eternals Errant-Questor from Warhammer World. The model’s warscroll includes a Pitched Battle profile, but it doesn’t appear in the General’s Handbook 2018 or any of the official army building apps. Can I use it in a Pitched Battle game?
A: Yes.

Our WD battalions are safe. Thanks for coming to my Spook Talk

[Aaranis]

47 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I found this in the Designer's Commentary of the Core Rules

Our WD battalions are safe. Thanks for coming to my Spook Talk

Then by that logic the Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass is legal too ?

[dmorley21]

57 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I found this in the Designer's Commentary of the Core Rules

Our WD battalions are safe. Thanks for coming to my Spook Talk

That's promising, but we'll just have to see. Do email the team if you haven't. 

9 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

Then by that logic the Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass is legal too ?

Sadly, no. That got moved into legends in the GHB which is different all together. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I found this in the Designer's Commentary of the Core Rules

So more recent publications supercede older ones. The whole thing of stuff not being in GHB started last year with GHB19. That as a rule will supercede that FAQ if the FAQ was prior to GHB19. 

The reason I say this, is that had the FAQ superceded the GHB19 decision, we would have seen the mortality glass all of last year, but we didn't. 

[Snoogens]

On 7/17/2020 at 6:46 PM, Snoogens said:

Anyways, on a side note I will be giving this list a run on Sunday vs Ironjawz. Could be cool, could be ******, who knows. Might as well give it a go.
 

Managed to win today vs Ironjawz with the above list!
Mawkrusha, Warchanter, Weirdnob, 2x units of 3 Gore Gruntas, 2x units of 15 Ardboyz, 1x unit of 10 Brutes.

It was an extremely convicing win after battle round 3. The Spirit Host blob + Spirit Torment is an absolute beast, especially if you got Black Coach in range to help with the refilling in the Hero Phase.
This little blob managed to wipe 3x Goregruntas and 15x Ardboyz while holding the objective - 0 wounds lost (after resummoning with ST and BC, and healing with ST).

Kurdoss didn't manage to bring a single CP my way, however the "Commanding" terrain feature ended up in my deployment zone, so I scored an extra CP from there. He tried to battle 1v1 versus their general, i.e. the Maw Krusha, but did a measly 3 wounds. However he also didn't die on the swingback, which was cool.

Grimghast Reapers didn't do much killing, however they did deep strike in T2 and easily stole the enemy territory objective while also killing his Warchanter and Weirdboy who had fallen behind. I'm sure I could've used these in a better way, but in terms of VP they certainly did their job.

Chainrasps got smacked by the majority of the enemy force, 15x Ardboyz, 10x Brutes and 3x Gore Gruntas. They managed to hold all of these in combat for 2 BRs, so I guess they did their job. This is most likely where I should've deep struck the Grimghast + KoSES, however there wasn't enough room for me to deep strike and secure majority on the objective if I had failed the charge, so thats why I ended up in the deep back line instead. I think it was the right choice, as it got me a whole lot more VP in the end. Failing the charge would've left me with 0 VP and most likely a scewed fight.

So once my BR3 was done, all he had left was 10 Brutes and the Maw Krusha, so he promptly conceded as my VP lead was huge due to me solely focusing on objectives rather than fighting (which is quite different to how I have usually played my NH, which is a bit dumb, haha..).

Super happy that NH can still hold their ground, albeit it was quite a good matchup for me.
Was the opponent a shooty or magic focused list, this game would've been a lot different. Thankful that some factions still are very melee focused, hehe..

EDIT: What would I change? Well I think Reikenor did a ****** job. He was really only there to cast Soul Cage, which he did, but it didn't make much of a difference either way had it not gone off. I would replace him.  Same goes for Kurdoss. 180 pts, didn't even get me a CP, barely scratched the enemy General. The rest did their job. A batallion would be neat, it kind of sucks to not have any +cast on the GoS.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Snoogens
change notes

[EnixLHQ]

7 minutes ago, Snoogens said:

[NH shenaniganary]

I like this list. It's similar to the one I am tooling, but with DG instead of Reapers. (Reddit seems to think we'll get our WD battalions validated in the FAQ)

Don't be afraid to put Reik in combat positions. Not to engage, but if you can manage to snuff a candle on an enemy unit every turn after the first then his value increases. If you can snipe a hero or a banner-carrier normie from a unit then that value is immense. I like giving him Lifestealer to heal himself so you can feel more confident bringing him in range.

Somewhat the same with Kurdoss. His CP steal can be nice, especially if your opponent was really counting on that CP, but his real function is to accompany a unit that's targeting the enemy general. A single combat round is about all you can expect from him, but if you do some damage and soak the hits then there is his value. Personally, I bench him.

[Snoogens]

5 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I like this list. It's similar to the one I am tooling, but with DG instead of Reapers. (Reddit seems to think we'll get our WD battalions validated in the FAQ)

Don't be afraid to put Reik in combat positions. Not to engage, but if you can manage to snuff a candle on an enemy unit every turn after the first then his value increases. If you can snipe a hero or a banner-carrier normie from a unit then that value is immense. I like giving him Lifestealer to heal himself so you can feel more confident bringing him in range.

Somewhat the same with Kurdoss. His CP steal can be nice, especially if your opponent was really counting on that CP, but his real function is to accompany a unit that's targeting the enemy general. A single combat round is about all you can expect from him, but if you do some damage and soak the hits then there is his value. Personally, I bench him.

Indeed I think you've got the right idea of how to use Reikenor actually, I'll give it a try next NH game I play, for sure. I didn't play DG as it is currently "up in the air" if it can be used or not, but if it gets confirmed I will def roll a list with DG too. If only Hexwraiths had Reaped like Corn I would be all over 2x 10 man units. For now I guess 2x 5 man units is the way to go.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Snoogens

[LordPrometheus]

Went to a small tourney yesterday, rolled this list. Hadn't played in months, so was a little rusty.

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Leaders
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (130)
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
Lord Executioner (80)
Spirit Torment (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

Units
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

Behemoths
Black Coach (220)
Mourngul (270)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131


The tourney was only three rounds, I went up against FEC, Seraphon, and FEC again. First game was extremely close. We played Blade's Edge, where the person who goes second can burn objectives they don't control. I went first each round, no double turns. I setup Olynder, Mourngul, Bladegheists, Lord Ex, and 10 Chainrasps in Underworlds,  grabbed most of the objectives and just sat on them. Black Coach was charged immediately and died to a TGheist in first combat, then I killed it with my Spirit Hosts the next turn. Lost on the final turn of the final round as time was called, as my opponent barely got two more models on an objective to steal it from me. Lost 9 VP to 8 VP. Misplay here was not running Olynder and her Chainrasps to that objective on my turn. 

Game 2 vs Seraphon, Forcing the Hand battleplan, setup same units in Underworlds vs Kroak, Salamanders, and Slann with 2 Bastilodons. This army is straight up busted and would have tabled me, but I got the turn in Round 3 and won because I played the objectives the whole game and just sat on them. Black Coach died on turn 2 to shooting without doing anything. Made a mistake that turned out to be a blessing in disguise, as I got a WoT charge with the Bladegheists on the Bastilodons who were sitting on the primary objective and managed to steal it even though they only did one wound in two rounds of combat. 1+ saves are broken. Failed all magic casts this game for obvious reasons. My opponent was so scared of my deepstrikes that he stayed in his zone the first two turns and just allowed me to take the objectives, which is the only reason I won. But hey, I'll take it.

Game 3, Knife to the Heart, me vs FEC again. I do the same deployment to Underworlds, He's playing 2 TGheists and all Crypt Flayers. Rushes my objective, charges his entire army into my 40 Rasps, does 36 mortal wounds with 2 Maw attacks (triple sixes TWICE in one game!), gets the double turn, and claims the objective at the end of my turn 2, winning the game. Made a crucial mistake here and left my general vulnerable to his 3' TGheist attack (Maw I think), which combined with the double turn left me helpless and no way to bring back Spirit Hosts. Failed all charges except one and all save rolls this game, no joke. Only made Deathless saves. The dice gods hated me in this one. Not much to be done about it.  Black Coach actually brought some models back this game, and did a few wounds to a TGheist.

Parting random thoughts:

 The Black Coach was little more than a distraction carnifex in these games. It was either immediately targeted down, or in the final game when I was more defensive with it and kept it behind my 40 Rasps, getting double turned really killed its effectiveness and it was just 220 points for 3 wounds to a TGheist and 3 Rasps restored. Kind of meh, but maybe the distraction element is worth?

These new 6 objective battleplans really favor horde armies and deepstriking onto objectives. I'm going to look into getting more bodies into this list.

All 3 games were close, despite the last one being a dicefest blowout for me, I was still in it at the end, and nearly captured my opponent's objective with Olynder and the Mourngul before I ran out of time. Lost to the double turn and dice gods here. Still a fun game.

Deepstriking the Mourngul is a blast. He actually got to make 3 WoT charges this tourney and deleted 10 man units of Skinks and Ghouls with it. He's still overcosted at 270, but boy does he scare people and dish out some pain on the WoT charge.

The Lord Executioner didn't do much other than give rerolls to the Bladegheists. They failed most of their charges this tourney, so I wasn't really able to utilize them effectively. Still like them.

Spirit Hosts are my new favorite unit. Absolute beasts with a Spirit Torment. 

Our heroes are pathetically paper thin. It's absolutely awful how weak our heroes are for being so important to our army. 5 wounds is absolutely horrible. Strangely though, only one opponent knew to go for the Spirit Torment, and it really helped ruin my chances of a comeback in that game.

Never cast the Pallisade once, but that was mostly due to going against FEC twice (no shooting) and Kroak who unbound every single spell. 

All in all, I felt surprisingly good about Nighthaunt. The new battleplans seem to match up well for us and our strengths. Even though I went 1-2, I was in every single game and nothing was a blowout. A little bit better dice luck and a couple fewer mistakes, and I could have easily been 3-0. 

[Greasygeek]

Guys maybe were just a few hours short of an update but so far it appears NH aInt gettin any update as almost all newer factions are updated already. So where does that leave our WD battalions?