EnixLHQ Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Greasygeek said: Thoughts regarding your very fine piece of strategic aid. Keep in mind I have yet to find the time to really dig into the guide without having my kids jumping on my head while Im trying to read and comprehend. So my suggestions are based on the fact that I might have missed quite a lot indeed🙂 - For people that have English as a second language (like myself) it would be awesome if the guide somewhere down the line could have pictures with examples of the specific tactics example. I had a bit of a hard time visualizing how the Envelope is supposed to work. Im not talking great pieces of art, just simple paintbrush made boxes and arrows representing setups and situations. - Its a really nice Document you are making there. Turning it i to a final goodlooking PDF would be very nice. Will probably doit myself if its not in your plans. Just to have it close by when needed. And needed it is. - would it make sense to make a section about dealing with specific enemyfactions? Like the do’s and don’ts when fighting ... Again sorry mate if some of my suggestions indicate I havn’t yet read the guid thouroghly. Either way great work. Stuff like this make it funnier to keep fighting those uphill battles. -Graphics are a great idea! Unfortunately I would not have a good way to get this done. If anyone does and would like me to use their images, I would more than happily add them in and give all the credits and kudos. -I keep a Word doc of this myself, but yes a PDF version would be cool to offer as a download attachment. If you make one I'll see about attaching it. -Enemy faction focus? Perhaps, but for as many words I use in my guide I am not an expert, nor I am I going up against all of the other factions or even playing against very skilled players of the factions I do. I could make a "general guidelines to follow" but I feel like that I do that already by highlighting our strengths and how to apply them. If enough people added their thoughts on this, or even better, made their own page talking about this, I would be happy to link it in the guide. 1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said: Fyreslayers WD stuff isn't in the GHB20 and that was June. Cos book was October iirc. So 🤷🏾♂️ I didn't think I'd have to argue semantics with anyone. Especially when I'm telling everyone to hold out hope and enjoy what we have. But here we are, so... https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/02/generals-handbook-matched-play/ Like in last year’s edition, we’ll be ensuring that armies released after the General’s Handbook went to print (that’s everything since Cities of Sigmar) will have their matched play profiles updated for free with a set of downloads in the very near future. I can't speak about the Fyreslayers. I don't follow them, don't play them, and don't have enough interest in them to go digging into the veracity of your statement. But what I can say is that everything we got from White Dwarf came out in December, and that Cities of Sigmar itself was the cutoff point. Not the date. Cities went to print, they watched the tournaments and gathered feedback, and began to make GHB 2020. GHB 2020, other than minor changes, was locked in sometime between Cities being released for print and any other official release that came after. Therefore, what came out in December could not have made it into GHB2020. I'll point out that the official statement says "armies released after," which we clearly are not. What we got was an addition. However, until the digital supplements come out for each faction, and those supplements are GHB 2020 additions, then our White Dwarf battalions are legal. End of statement, really. Play them. Enjoy them. If the digital stuff comes out and it turns out our points are not in there, THEN you can say we don't have the battalions anymore. And THEN is when I will be just as heartbroken and angry as anyone else that our toys keep getting taken away. I mean, if that happens, a strongly worded (but still polite) letter will be written! And I'll hope the reason why is a whole new battletome. You know, to stay positive. Stay positive, is what I am trying to tell you. Edited July 15, 2020 by EnixLHQ 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said: I can't speak about the Fyreslayers Fyreslayers were the first WD battalions that had matched play points. That was the June issue. None of them were in GHB20. Citing that NH WD battalions might he included because they were printed in December, after the CoS book, but ignoring the fact that the fyreslayer WD battalions were left out is sticking your head in the sand. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Mackay Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 55 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said: Fyreslayers were the first WD battalions that had matched play points. That was the June issue. None of them were in GHB20. Citing that NH WD battalions might he included because they were printed in December, after the CoS book, but ignoring the fact that the fyreslayer WD battalions were left out is sticking your head in the sand. Yeah sorry, I’ve got to agree with this. The faqs from the last GHB clearly stated if it’s released before the GHB but isn’t included in the GHB then it’s removed from matched play, anything releases after the GHB is legal until the next GHB removes it. fyreslayers white dwarf content not being included kinda confirms that ours are gone too. White Dwarf content is considered ‘limited’ and gw don’t like limited stuff in matched play because it’s ‘unfair’ not everyone can access said content. Other examples of ‘limited’ content include the special Gaurdian Of Souls, Looncurse, Feast Of Bones, Carrion Empire, Aether War, Wrath And Rupture, content from campaign books (all the battalions from The Realmgate Wars books). I don’t agree with this but it’s how gw want to do things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnixLHQ Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 How is it either "limited" or "not everyone can have it" if the points exist in a book and the models aren't anything special? Yes, unfair if not everyone has access to a limited time only sculpt, sure. It's also unfair to use old content when current content exists. Everything you two are citing fall under those categories, not "unfair because it came in a non-mainline book". Plenty of examples where that kind of content remains valid, even at the tournament level. TO's decide that bit (remember everything being a Citadel Wood?), and there aren't any tournaments right now. Granted, we don't know what's in the supplement yet. I certainly don't. But why whinge at the possibility? I don't understand the active killing of open thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equinox Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 What I don't get with GW is all they had to do was re-print the battalions in the new GHB. Same with the Legion of Grief. A few pages of content would have been a huge win for the community with no extra work on their part. I agree with EnixLHQ when it comes to being positive about all of this, but sometimes GW's logic is frustrating (and a lost sale as I'm not buying this year's GHB). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 6 hours ago, EnixLHQ said: How is it either "limited" or "not everyone can have it" if the points exist in a book and the models aren't anything special? These battalions are limited because it's published either in limited edition boxsets or in a limited print run monthly magazine. Just because people have taken pictures and put them up on the Internet, it doesn't matter, as that content is the legal IP of FW, and unless they themselves have published that full content that everyone can get access to, and access at anytime, then the content is limited. Yes it's frustrating, yes it could be handled better, yes I wish it wasn't the case, yes I want the battalions to stay, but going on last year's experience of how GW handle non-GHB content, it's incredibly foolhardy to assume that it's going to be included. I have already sent an email to rules team, asking these questions. Did it on the Monday after general release. Have encouraged other. NH players to do the same (more voices = more attention, etc...). I am fully behind wanting to see NH supported as a faction by GW, but considering the magic and shooting heavy dominance of Lumineth, lizards, CoS, Tzeentch, KO, mixed Order, we honestly needed more than a pathetic scattering on points drops to rarely uses units and certainly didn't need our best battalions (WD ones) removed from matched play. Going forward, when events start up again (which is happening August time) hopefully our win rate at events will drop low enough that some fixes will take place, but then again look at the treatment that Slyvaneth got from this GHB20. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greasygeek Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 So FINALLY my GHB landed today and maybe Im being a bit too optimistic but I find the Auxilliary objectives very intriguing in our favour. Sure this should be tested well before giving a full opinion but from the looks of it it seem like it might actually work to plan for a draw just to outmanouver the opponent and go for a minor victory gained from Auxilliary Objectives. Don’t you agree? At first glance it seem like the Aux Obs on the images would suit us well. Depending on the situation and opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnixLHQ Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) Two armies and a monster compendium were released today. https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#warhammer-age-of-sigmar I am losing my confidence... Other than AoSFAQ, any other emails we should use? Also, is Warscroll Builder considered official? Edited July 17, 2020 by EnixLHQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greasygeek Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said: Two armies and a monster compendium were released today. https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#warhammer-age-of-sigmar I am losing my confidence... Other than AoSFAQ, any other emails we should use? Also, is Warscroll Builder considered official? Just checked the link. Did the Mourngul just go back up to 280? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnixLHQ Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Greasygeek said: Just checked the link. Did the Mourngul just go back up to 280? That's why I ask about Warscroll Builder. If it still counts as official then I guess it's not accurate right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Greasygeek said: Did the Mourngul just go back up to 280? What?! This makes no sense at all... what an awful mess... 30 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said: If it still counts as official then I guess it's not accurate right now? Both Warscroll Builder and Azyr are considered “official” but that does not mean they are accurate and/or up to date. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnixLHQ Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 What a cluster... Sigh. I just want nice things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 10 hours ago, Greasygeek said: At first glance it seem like the Aux Obs on the images would suit us well. The issue with these aux. objectives is that most of them are 'if you are winning, win some more'. Some like 'Mass Panic' are ****** stupid, how do you score that against gloomspite or OBR or Skaven. Also as they have to be revealed at the start of the game, your opponent can decide to deny you scoring incredibly situational ones, like 'Mass Panic', very easily. We also lack the punch required for the ones that need you to delete a unit(s) or heroes. As most event will be using the aux. objectives differently, until the best formula is found, I don't foresee these being a useful tool to help us win tbh. Overall the change to the missions giving boons to battleline is good for us, but Focal Points giving bonuses for behemoths sucks serious plums. Overall how we fair is really going to depend on the FAQ. Tbh I had a 36 myrmourn list pre-GHB20, using a WD battalion. That list got changed to not include the WD battalion once the battalions weren't in the GHB20. This list is now likely to change again to 2018 style mass grim spam, because battleline offers so much bonuses to so many of the scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnixLHQ Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said: because battleline offers so much bonuses to so many of the scenarios. Bonuses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said: Bonuses? A fair few of the scenarios score extra points is the unit holding the objective is either battleline or near battleline. Same goes for leaders and for Focal Points, behemoths. So instead of scoring say 1VP for holding your objective you score 2VP. Over the course of the game this small bonuses all add up. Grims are easily are best battleline unit when in blobs of 30 and possibly our best unit in the game, as they don't rely on squishy heroes supporting them in order to function, they are really self sufficient. Stick in a vamp lord ally and things get silly really quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garxia Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Well, some random musings after a post-COVID 20 players tourney (using GHB19 rules) and GHB20. + Battlelines scoring extra points in battleplans: Like it, 60-75% of our army are battlelines, and some top armies just have the 3 obligatory battlelines. 40 chainrasps unit more mandatory than ever. + Leaders scoring extra points in battleplans: Nice, none of my armies have less than 4-5 leaders. + New Realms Rules and artefacts : Great, even if we lose the Aetherquartz Brooch, we'll stop seeing Ethereal Amulets and all the other shinies that hurts us more than the brooch helps us. Enemies losing the brooch and having less CP is wonderful too. + Auxiliary Objectives: Awesome. Tourneys here use killing points as tie-breakers, and we're not so killy. That dropped me from 3th to 5th place in last tournament. - Point changes in GHB20: Uninspired, bland and boring, even a 10 points drop on Grimghast (deserved) will help us something. My army is a jaw dropping 20 points cheaper than before. - Competitive Nighthaunt: Nothing new, we're in a dire situation, warscrolls are showing its age, we can compete but we're so dicey. A single bladegheist living a turn saving all against a Maw-Krusha and failing 17 of 20 4+ saves and 15 of these 17 6+ ghosties saves. Both have happened to me. * MSU is death: 40 chainrasps and 30 Grimghast, thats how I start all my lists. Having less than that works great in theory but in practice, they are free points in this meta. * Magic: Just take 1 or 2 mages at most. Don't bother paying for endless spells (even with Reikenor). * Guardian of Souls: My guardian of souls is there just for his +1 wound buff , the lucky Shademist/Mystic Shield and I got the special edition one. He've been more disapointing than helpful, even so, other options are worse, so I'm not dropping him. * Get as much characters as you can: 6+ ghostie save is needed, they also help scoring objectives in new battleplans and singles of the usual suspects are useful (KoS, Spirit Torment...). Even a lowly point filler Cairn Wraith won me a game last tourney. * Most important rule: STICK TO THE BATTLEPLAN: Last tourney I won a Duality of Death game against a sharp Tzeencht flamers spam list. He destroyed all my army at the end of turn 3, I killed like 300 pts. Still I won because I sticked to the battleplan and was so ahead on points. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Mackay Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Greasygeek said: Just checked the link. Did the Mourngul just go back up to 280? The points list in the forge world downloads posted recently state they were updated March 2020, whereas the GHB has a newer date 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Like others, I just sent an email about the WD battalions. On another note, I wanted to talk about Dreadscythe Harridans. I might be biased here, because I often take a unit of 10 (love the lore and the models) and they often exceed my expectations and catch my opponents by surprise as they're unfamiliar with them. However, I think with the most recent points drops there's a case that Harridans might be one of the best units in our book. At 70/260, they come out to be 14/13 pts per wound. Here's where that compares to other units: Chainrasps: 8/7 pts per wound (ppw) Hexwraiths: 13 Spirit Hosts: 13.3 Harridans: 14/13 Stalkers: 15 Reapers: 16/14 Myrmourns: 17.5 Bladegheists: 18/16 So, just looking at how much they cost per wound you can see they have some decent value. Granted, they're not battleline, so that hurts, but the value is there. But then I decided to calculate how much damage they do on average before saves (I did one attack causing 2 damage for every 6) and the results look like this: A unit of five: 5.3 A unit of ten: 11.2 A unit of fifteen: 17.18 A unit of twenty: 22.13 That damage output is really good by Nighthaunt standards. It's more output than Reapers (including their re-rolls) and Bladegheists that don't get charge off that turn. However, it really shines when you look at how much in terms of points you're paying for that damage: A unit of five: 13.2 pts A unit of ten: 12.5 pts A unit of fifteen: 12.2 pts A unit of twenty: 11.7 pts So how does that compare? Well, for Reapers that are fighting hordes, you're paying 16/14 pts per each wound before saves and 24/21 if they're not fighting hordes. For Chainrasps, you're also paying 16/14 pts and you don't get any rend. For Bladegheists, you're paying 14/12 if they're on the charge, and 20/18 if they're not. So, Harridans are our most points efficient damage dealers and one of our most points efficient per wound units. If their other special rule actually goes off, then that's gravy. This all begs the question, how should they be used? Even though they're very point efficient in a horde, their large bases and 1" reach makes me think that you'll end up losing some efficiency there. I've always had good luck surprising opponents with how much damage a unit of 10 can do, and I'm inclined to keep using them at that size. But I might look into including two units of 10 instead of one. There's far too many armies that ignore battleshock for me to run a Shrieker Host battalion, which is a shame, as that could be pretty interesting at this point. What are your thoughts on Harridans? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoogens Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Monsterous Arcanum (?) has a print date of March 2020, and the GHB20 has a print date of June 2020, so GHB20 overrules the PDF that they uploaded yesterday. Anyways, on a side note I will be giving this list a run on Sunday vs Ironjawz. Could be cool, could be ******, who knows. Might as well give it a go. Next up if this feels like ****** will be Enix list, but I guess replacing the 10x Chainrasps that tag along Olynder with 3x Spirit Hosts perhaps, still haven't really looked into what to do with the extra points.. It's around the same damage provided that all of the Chainrasps can fight, but instead the damage has a chance of becoming Mortals instead of normal Wounds, and Battleshock will never be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 I am afraid that, despite my bucketloads of bias (I have always played 30 Reapers and 20 Revenants...), @dmorley21 might have finally brought me to reason. A few numbers in addition to what has been reported above - and with specific reference to the comparison between Harridans, Reapers and Revenants - below. I have picked units of 20, no save as rend and damage are the same (I did take into account the extra damage for the Harridans if wounding on unmodified 6s, though)... ** 20 Harridans: 260 pts (20 pts of regiment discount - noice) - Vanilla: 25 damage (12.5 damage in one rank. Because you can have them to fight in two ranks, but it's very difficult with our dreadful "wholly within 12" and the like. I should know, I have struggled with Revenants for quite a while, they have exactly the same issue) - Vanilla +Spirit Torment (no CP needed. This is useful to make a comparison with Revenants) = 29.17 damage (~14.6 damage in one rank) ** 20 Reapers: 320 pts [can be taken in units of 30 for 420 pts, that's a 60 pts discount - NOICE] Vanilla: 13.33 damage (they have a 2" range - this is key!) Vanilla (against units containing 5 models or more): 20 damage (probably 1.5 more because of the bell - we all know it consistently fails to hit, though. Nagash's teeth...) ** 20 Revenants: 320 pts [60 pts discount - NOICE] Vanilla: 17.78 damage (8.9 damage in one rank) Vanilla + Spirit Torment (no CP needed!) : 23.7 damage (11.85 damage in one rank) Vanilla (on the charge - at least once / battleround unless you're very unlucky): 26.67 damage (13.3 in one rank) Vanilla + on the charge + Spirit Torment : 35.56 damage (17.78 damage in one rank) So. I think Reapers are still better than Harridans: the 2" reach is such a potent feature and they can be taken as 30-man blobs, which is great in terms of resiliance. Would you pay 60 extra pts for the Reapers, compared to the Harridans, for extra reach and greater durability? Yes I would. And yes, Reapers obviously suffer a bit if not going against 5(or more)-man units, but none of these units are meant to go after the elites! But. I think the Harridans might come out on top if compared to the Revenants. It pains me to say this, as I have 20 of them - and decently painted as well! - but the numbers are pretty clear. The extra damage of the Revenants is marginal compared to that outputted by the Harridans: you are paying those 60 extra pts for their ability of retreat and charge. Which can win you games - but that shenanigan is hard to pull off with the unit of 20. In a nutshell: yes, Harridans are now a strong choice. I don't like the models (well, at least not as much as Reapers and Revenants, which are amazing) but it is what it is. Harridans started at a whopping 90/320 point cost, which was utter bollocks. Now, at 70/260 pts, they finally got there. I still value the 2" reach of the Reapers and the Reatreat & Charge ability of the Revenants, but for the first time ever Harridans make sense! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoogens Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Thamalys said: <snip> I think I'd definitely, no hesitation, would go with Harridans when up against armies that don't have 10 Bravery. At that point the -1 hit aura just becomes absolutely insane. Imagine getting both the Harridans and Mourngul into combat. -2 hit.. wow. But indeed, you make great points here. I think it's definitely a strong choice against most armies today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greasygeek Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 8 hours ago, Garxia said: Well, some random musings after a post-COVID 20 players tourney (using GHB19 rules) and GHB20. + Battlelines scoring extra points in battleplans: * MSU is death: After doing a quick check up it seem that only 1 of 12 new battleplans allows battleline units to score extra points. Writing off MSUs and start mass building Reapers because of this seem a little bit rushed. However there are 3(or 4 maybe?) plans that allows extra points for Leaders so that might come in our favour (if our heroes get to live long enough). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 @dmorley21 the main issue with harridans is:- - 1" reach makes units of 10+ redundant - no inbuilt reroll ability, which they need hitting on 4+, so in order to function they need to be babysat by a torment or similar - their -1 to hit ability affects about 4 units in the entire game. I use them all the time and can not remember the last time that the -1 actually came into effect - not battleline and don't fit into any useful battalions I love them but they need to just give out a -1 to hit regardless of bravery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnixLHQ Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 I love Harridans, they pack a surprising punch. With a KoS on foot you can get that roll a bit more tasty. KoSoES might be better bang for the CP, though. Either way, I'll be looking into them more when their new points. 1 hour ago, Snoogens said: Next up if this feels like ****** will be Enix list, but I guess replacing the 10x Chainrasps that tag along Olynder with 3x Spirit Hosts perhaps, still haven't really looked into what to do with the extra points.. It's around the same damage provided that all of the Chainrasps can fight, but instead the damage has a chance of becoming Mortals instead of normal Wounds, and Battleshock will never be an issue. The rasps are just there to provide Look Out Sir! And act as a screen with a base size that still allows her to use her 10" ability on the turn she zones in. In that particular list that whole bundle is meant to be a distraction capable of assassination. I've been tooling the list since the changes and can get an extra CP bought with it, but the loss of our WD battalions means the second source of mortal wound generation is effectively neutered. I'm still waiting to see if this remains the case, because that will be the difference in a good all-comers list and just another "against the right kind of enemy" list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 47 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said: @dmorley21 the main issue with harridans is:- - 1" reach makes units of 10+ redundant - no inbuilt reroll ability, which they need hitting on 4+, so in order to function they need to be babysat by a torment or similar - their -1 to hit ability affects about 4 units in the entire game. I use them all the time and can not remember the last time that the -1 actually came into effect - not battleline and don't fit into any useful battalions I love them but they need to just give out a -1 to hit regardless of bravery. You bring up some good points. I've always had a unit of 10, and have had a lot of success with them typically without any hero support. They can make a great support unit if one of my anvils gets bogged down. More often, they're solid hero/MSU/lesser behemoth hunters. I've had many opponents not worry too much about them and focus on my Reapers/Blades/Lady O only to have a key unit/model wiped by the Harridans. They're also great objective hunters as they can typically wipe off other objective holders in a single round of combat. In my previous list, I had a unit of 10 Harridans and two units of 5 Bladegheists. I'm very tempted to now run two units of 10 Harridans and open up 40 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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