AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Greasygeek said:

Wuhuu the Novel, Lady of Sorrows will be on preorder next week. This is the book I have been waiting for since the beginning of Soulwars. This is just plain awesomeness😆

What's it about?

[Greasygeek]

52 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

What's it about?

Don’t really know but it has Olynder on the cover and hence the title I assume that they will finally put a bit more personallity into her. There have been made a ton of novels about Manfred Arkhan & Nefereta I just think/hope that Olynder turns out to be interesting like them. Love the model and the background lore hope to read more.

[TheWilddog]

Got 4 heroes and some more bed sheet battleline done this month. Chugging along at about 1100 points.

[EnixLHQ]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:38 AM, EnixLHQ said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Reikenor the Grimhailer (170)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Lifestealer
Spirit Torment (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)

Behemoths
Black Coach (220)

Battalions
The Dolorous Guard (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133

In order to have a list stand up to any challenger, it has to both play up its own strengths to a high level while also exposing a weakness in the enemy that can be easily and repeatedly exploited. This list seeks to capitalize on From the Underworlds They Come, wizard coverage, and movement speed to allow you to dynamically adjust to your opponent and battleplan. It will also make liberal use of Frightful Touch and other mortal wound generating attacks and abilities to exploit a universal weakness among opponent armies: high or non-existent mortal wound shrugs. This makes this list suitable against hordes, elites, and multi-wound heroes while also providing enough bodies to claim objectives and protect key ones.

Goals: Primary - Shred enemy threat units. Secondary - Shred enemy objective campers. Tertiary - Claim up to 4 objectives and roam for more.

Underworlds: Up to any 5 units, decided by opponent and battleplan.

How it works: There are a few guidelines to follow.

First, Command Points should be used on re-rolling charges for Wave of Terror. Priority for WoT chances will be Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths. Don't use points on anything else but WoT chances.

Second, the Spirit Torment is the general, and with his Pendant of the Fell Wind should be nice and tight with the Spirit Hosts. This gives the entire group 9" of movement, reroll 1's on their Frightful Touch attacks, and full-model return on any dead Spirit Hosts regardless of how many wounds are currently allocated. Coupled with Captured Soul Energy which should be used to keep the ST healed or spot-remove wounds on a Spirit Host, this becomes your primary threat composition and should head straight for the scariest opponent target. This is the only hero/unit configuration I would never break up. The rest below can if you see a tactical advantage in doing so.

Third, the Dolorous Guard is not there to give the general more wounds, but instead to buff the Hexwraiths attacks and provide the extra CP and artefact. The DG should pal around with Reikenor since they have similar movement, which should ensure they have hero cover while they charge and shred distant or exposed targets. Unlike the Spirit Host configuration above, the DG and Reikenor can be dynamically used. They will be great against horde units, exposed heroes, objective snagging, or putting pressure at a key location. Be sure to use Reikenor's candles on enemy models that grant buffs to their units, and it's likely he'll be in the best position to lay out the Prismatic Palisade in a favorable spot.

Fourth, Lady Olynder and 10 Chainrasps should always stick together. She needs a screen to provide some protection and provide Look Out, Sir! for a shot at durability. In this list she is a distraction ploy; she'll wreak havoc if not dealt with but isn't so important to us for winning that we need to keep her alive. She will be best used right when you anticipate your opponent is going to try to push forward on you, and so would almost always be in the Underworlds waiting.

Fifth, the Black Coach will play its usual two roles. In the beginning, you will make a choice of either having it hang back with the Spirit Hosts if you think you will lose more models than Ruler of the Spirit Host can return, or have it move with the Hexwraiths to make sure they stay at max size. Or, you can have it run-up to a loose objective. Once it's empowered enough you can consider using it offensively, but I wouldn't send it out against any elites.

Lastly, the Guardian of Souls and his big block of 40 'rasps are for whatever you might need a thick blob of wounds on the table. Clearly grabbing an objective is one place to put them, and if there is a hotly contended objective they can last the fight to keep it. They can also remain in your backfield if your opponent has any zone-in abilities or deep strike. They will be slow, so keep that in mind.

What ends up in Underworlds will be completely up to you, but you will have a lot of options. I would give a recommendation, but other than always having the Black Coach and the Spirit Torment/Spirit Host blob on the table at the start it will come down to the battle plan, the coverage you need to protect yourself in the early game, opponent speed and zone-in, and any number of other variables.

Like I mentioned already, the list is 3-0.

1. Graywater Fastness. Opponent lost the priority roll for turn 2 and conceded.

2. Living City. Went the distance to the bottom of turn 5.

3. OBR - Petrifex. Tabled in 3 turns.

And now 4-0.

This time against Sylvaneth. It wasn't an Alarielle list and instead focused heavily on ranged Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatbows, Tree-Revenants, and extra Awakened Wildwoods. At first I was really worried about this one; I lost the priority roll, but that didn't matter because they finished deployment 3 units before me. Then they got into position with all their ranged and targeted my heroes, flayed out grabbing 3 of the four objectives of the battleplan, and summoned two units of Dryads all in the first turn. But when they wiffed most of their ranged attacks and didn't engage me in combat, I was able to erase two Kurnoth units with my Spirit Hosts and Black Coach in my turn. The game went 3 turns, and when they lost the priority for turn 4 they conceded. It was 12 to 6.

Edited June 29, 2020 by EnixLHQ

[LordPrometheus]

8 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

And now 4-0.

This time against Sylvaneth. It wasn't an Alarielle list and instead focused heavily on ranged Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatbows, Tree-Revenants, and extra Awakened Wildwoods. At first I was really worried about this one; I lost the priority roll, but that didn't matter because they finished deployment 3 units before me. Then they got into position with all their ranged and targeted my heroes, flayed out grabbing 3 of the four objectives of the battleplan, and summoned two units of Dryads all in the first turn. But when they wiffed most of their ranged attacks and didn't engage me in combat, I was able to erase two Kurnoth units with my Spirit Hosts and Black Coach in my turn. The game went 3 turns, and when they lost the priority for turn 4 they conceded. It was 12 to 6.

Dang, that's impressive. It looks like I'm going to be running your list at Siegeworld, so we'll see how it goes.

[Greasygeek]

Oh my, I seriously hate Fyreslayers. I hate them like Nagash hates the spring.

I hate them like Duncan Roades hate thick paint!

I hate them like Lummineth Realm Lords hate tiny doorways!

Thats how much I dislike the annoying little circus freaks!

Anyway this is probably due to the fact that they have beaten me so many times that I have started to sound like a villian from  the Inspector Gadget or a Scooby Doo cartoon, leaving the battlefield in tears crying stuff like:

“Next time Slayers... Next Time...”.

or “I would’ve got away with it if it wasn’t for you pesky Hearthguard weirdoes”.

So please help me out my spooky fellows.

Heres the thing. My local Midget handler (aka Fyreslayer player), is actually a good guy and in my area the meta isn’t totally competitive.

So usually I fight something like:

1 x Magmadroth

1 x Runelord (for unbinding)

2-3 foolish but similarlooking hatwearing heroes (to keep the HBG nearly immortal)

20 x HGB

20 x Vulkite

Lately Iv’e got a bit dellusional and had tried to go hard at the HGB with a strong Emerald Host led by a Kos on steed. 
🥵
Not gonna do that again. So this new list I made to try to avoid combat and tie up his HGB with spells and chainrasps while only hitting vulnerable units like Vulkite, single heroes and maybe the magmadroth scum!

However I have tried something similar before but this has all fallen apart whenever we roll a battleplan in which his HGB can easily reach important objectives. Like it happend in our last game of relocation orb. The wannabe vikings simply just hunkered down on the orb and I was forced to go at them with slim to no chance for most of the game, since the orb kept hanging out close to his HGB.

So yeah any advise when building a list against the stuff mentioned above, are much welcome.

 

 

[Neck-Romantic]

Is it just me or can Nighthaunt NOT use the GHB20 build-a-hero tool? Or do we count as "Malignant"

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Is it just me or can Nighthaunt NOT use the GHB20 build-a-hero tool? Or do we count as "Malignant"

We're Malignant. We may even have traits from other Death groups since we're not named.

[Thamalys]

On 6/29/2020 at 7:50 PM, Greasygeek said:

Oh my, I seriously hate Fyreslayers. I hate them like Nagash hates the spring.

I hate them like Duncan Roades hate thick paint!

I hate them like Lummineth Realm Lords hate tiny doorways!

Thats how much I dislike the annoying little circus freaks!

Anyway this is probably due to the fact that they have beaten me so many times that I have started to sound like a villian from  the Inspector Gadget or a Scooby Doo cartoon, leaving the battlefield in tears crying stuff like:

“Next time Slayers... Next Time...”.

or “I would’ve got away with it if it wasn’t for you pesky Hearthguard weirdoes”.

So please help me out my spooky fellows.

Heres the thing. My local Midget handler (aka Fyreslayer player), is actually a good guy and in my area the meta isn’t totally competitive.

So usually I fight something like:

1 x Magmadroth

1 x Runelord (for unbinding)

2-3 foolish but similarlooking hatwearing heroes (to keep the HBG nearly immortal)

20 x HGB

20 x Vulkite

Lately Iv’e got a bit dellusional and had tried to go hard at the HGB with a strong Emerald Host led by a Kos on steed. 
🥵
Not gonna do that again. So this new list I made to try to avoid combat and tie up his HGB with spells and chainrasps while only hitting vulnerable units like Vulkite, single heroes and maybe the magmadroth scum!

However I have tried something similar before but this has all fallen apart whenever we roll a battleplan in which his HGB can easily reach important objectives. Like it happend in our last game of relocation orb. The wannabe vikings simply just hunkered down on the orb and I was forced to go at them with slim to no chance for most of the game, since the orb kept hanging out close to his HGB.

So yeah any advise when building a list against the stuff mentioned above, are much welcome.

 

 

I feel your pain... Fyreslayers are a very tough matchup for Nighthaunt, that’s a fact. Many people will tell you that your speed and your ability to move around the board can easily outmatch the allegedly very slow dwarves... but’s that simply not true. Yes, it might take them two turns to get there, but when they do it’s game over (also, some builds are not slow at all!). We will NEVER have the damage to take down big blobs of fully buffed HGBs (almost no unit in the game can) and we don’t have time/ resources to kill the buffing heroes - we usually have to prioritise to avoid being tabled in turn one or two.

The irony is that Legions of Nagash (any flavour will do, but particularly Sacrament and Grand Host) can deal quite effectively with Fyreslayers but feeding them endless tides of summonable units which get thoroughly butchered every turn but that can also be brought back the turn after, while some heavy hitters deal with the buffing heroes. 
 
With Nighthaunt I had some success with dropping every finesse (no battalions, no castles, no synergies) and spamming a metric ton of MSUs. It sort of works, but it’s much less effective than LoN. Another way that - in all honesty - I still have to try is a filthy “stacking minuses” list with several units of Spirit Hosts, Lady Olynder, Neferata as an ally, a Mounrgul, Geminids, Palisade and Shards.  With a -3/-4 to hit on average, it’s really hard to grind away Spirit Hosts (particularly if you have Ruler of the Spirit Hosts). Now this list offers one of the worst playing experiences to your opponents - fact. But, in the case of Fyreslayers, I feel everything is game - even this stacking minuses filth...

[Greasygeek]

4 hours ago, Thamalys said:

The irony is that Legions of Nagash (any flavour will do, but particularly Sacrament and Grand Host) can deal quite effectively with Fyreslayers but feeding them endless tides of summonable units which get thoroughly butchered every turn but that can also be brought back the turn after, while some heavy hitters deal with the buffing heroes. 

What about Legion of Grief? With Harbingers taking the role as the hardhitters?

Also, I know this come off as quite noob, but Im not sure what exactly MSUs means?

Anyway thanks for the pointers.

Doing the filth list might work also. But why didn’t you mention Dreadscythe Harridans in that? They have a natural -1 if you can lower the Bravery.

[Neck-Romantic]

MSU - Multiple Small Units

Mainly used to bog enemies down, choke charge lanes, nd in our case fish for 10" charge rolls

[Thamalys]

3 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

What about Legion of Grief?

Sure, that’s also an option! I personally don’t like that particular Legion (I call it “Nighthaunts without Tactics”) but (a.) that’s just my very personal  taste and; (b.) against Fyreslayers, bring it on!

3 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

With Harbingers taking the role as the hardhitters?

It’s a possibility, yes, but in my mind they are massively over costed. But then, so it’s the Mourngul (I have a slender hope that the new GHB will bring them both down in points...) so why  not? Their -1 to bravery, though, is not something I’d invest too much into. Overall, “bravery bomb” lists (i.e. stacking -1 to bravery, which is one way to go with Legion of Grief) are not the way to go, not with all the bravery 10 armies that we have around - or indeed, armies where heroes make entire blobs immune to battle shock (hello Skavens) . Fyreslayers themselves are immune to battle shock if running Hermdar (and sitting wholly within 12” of an objective marker). 

3 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

But why didn’t you mention Dreadscythe Harridans in that? They have a natural -1 if you can lower the Bravery.

Again, for many armies you need a -4 to bravery to bring them down to 6. Is it doable in Legion of Grief? Sure - with a lot of effort, investing a substantial amount of points in specific units, cherrypicking from the Spells Lore as well as rolling decently. Is it worth it? I think not...

Tip: if you are going Legion of Grief against Fyreslayers you want dire wolves. 3 units of 5 minimum, but spamming 6 is not a stupid tactics. They are summonable and very fast: let the dwarves chew through endless walls of rotten fur!

[Greasygeek]

Salt incoming 
 

So after getting another servere punishing today, this time against Seraphon, I must say that it’s starting to get at my nerves just a wee bit. Not long ago in my local meta I used to win a bunch of games, not sure exactly how many, but more than I would loose. However after all (more or less) tomes got updated Im having a really hard time getting a fighting chance against most enemies.

It feels like they have a lot of utility tools to pick from their strategy box, while NH are stuck with some very unreliable powers at best. If we end up playing a battleplan with few objectives then im halfway done before the game begins, since my opponent always just sits tight on them and force me into a combat  I can’t control or win. Like today when we played the Total Comitment Battleplan and the Seraphon player had a ton of bubblewrap skinks and such to keep Lord Kroak and another Slaan safe while they rained magical massdestruction down on me. I couldn’t provide enough dispelling. I couldn’t catch the Slaans  who are way better at teleporting than NH. I could leave a huge gap in the back to put some pressure on the Slaans but it would take a lot of effort and put even more spell nastyness in my face. 
alright to be fair, if I knew that he would be playing the Slaan/summoning list, I think I could build against it, however the next time I meet him he might be playing a monster list og Saurus list or something completely different,since he has so many options to choose from. On the other hand he always knows most of the tricks he can expect from me. 

It seems that most armies does what we do but better and the armies thats incapable of doing so, does a very effective job sniping our heroes instead.

Is playing Nighthaunt these days just Warhammer on hard mode?

Im really wondering if Auxellery Objectives might provide some higher odds for NHs in games with 1-2 objectives.

 

[EnixLHQ]

4 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

Is playing Nighthaunt these days just Warhammer on hard mode?

Im really wondering if Auxellery Objectives might provide some higher odds for NHs in games with 1-2 objectives.

I hear you. You're not wrong. Would be great if we could have an equal chance without having a forecast of an enemy's list. I'm hoping the handbook makes some concessions for older tomes, especially since they may be taking our crutch artifacts away.

Yes, it is hard mode. For now, anyway.

[Greasygeek]

NH Pointchanges are out on the NH Facebook Group. Guess I can’t post pic, but this is whats up.

 

GOS dwn. 10

Kurdoss dwn 20

Dreadscythes dwn 10

Hexwraith dwn 10

The condemmed dwn 10.

Briar Queen dwn 20.

No mention of Emerald Host battalions

 

So well I guess its something, but I doubt its gonna make much of a change.

[The_Dudemeister]

Came here to post the points changes and the lack of the new battalions too. 

Seen in a vacuum, these points drops are pretty mediocre. Having the points drops of other factions in mind, this is a net nerf to Nighthaunt. Oh well

[Thamalys]

59 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Came here to post the points changes and the lack of the new battalions too. 

Seen in a vacuum, these points drops are pretty mediocre. Having the points drops of other factions in mind, this is a net nerf to Nighthaunt. Oh well

Patience, my friend, patience.., let us wait for the bigger picture. 

(Sadly, I fear you might be right, though...)

Man, they are trying with Kurdoss, aren’t they? 

Anyway - yes. Getting a victory with Nighthaunts these days is like winning a cyclocross race on a single speed...

[Spears]

Black coach, olynder and reiknor all have an asterix but haven't changed points. Any idea why?

[dmorley21]

Yeesh, I'm really disappointed the Emerald Host battalions got dropped. My list revolved around The Dolorous Guard. 

[dmorley21]

46 minutes ago, Spears said:

Black coach, olynder and reiknor all have an asterix but haven't changed points. Any idea why?

They are changes from the battletome. The asterisk represents when the points value are not what they are in the battletome. 

[Greasygeek]

19 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Yeesh, I'm really disappointed the Emerald Host battalions got dropped. My list revolved around The Dolorous Guard. 

Wait what now?! Are you sure that Dolorous Guard is out? I just assumed that WD material never gets included in the books, despite still being officially legal?

Kinda the same thing goes for FW stuff like the Mourngul.

[The_Dudemeister]

12 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

They are changes from the battletome. The asterisk represents when the points value are not what they are in the battletome. 

If that were true, Grimghast Reapers would have an asterisk too as they started out at 360 points

  

3 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

Wait what now?! Are you sure that Dolorous Guard is out? I just assumed that WD material never gets included in the books, despite still being officially legal?

Kinda the same thing goes for FW stuff like the Mourngul.

The Mourngul, like other Forgeworld stuff is in the Monstrous Arcanum section of the GHB that hasn't been leaked as of yet. But he's in there (and hopefully much much cheaper). Dolorous Guard and the other battalions not being in the Nighthaunt section therefore is quite telling. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by The_Dudemeister

[Aaranis]

6 hours ago, Greasygeek said:

NH Pointchanges are out on the NH Facebook Group. Guess I can’t post pic, but this is whats up.

 

GOS dwn. 10

Kurdoss dwn 20

Dreadscythes dwn 10

Hexwraith dwn 10

The condemmed dwn 10.

Briar Queen dwn 20.

No mention of Emerald Host battalions

 

So well I guess its something, but I doubt its gonna make much of a change.

Thanks, been searching for that a lot !

It's better than before, but I haven't seen the changes for other factions. I just hope they didn't make Fyreslayers cheaper again

Our problem isn't that much about points but about our book as a whole. It feels very weak and hollow compared to newer battletomes. Having our main standard wizard (GoS) still at 130 pts while he can only cast one spell is terrible, Ossiarchs can cast 2 with their basic wizards, I believe Lumineth too, and they're around the same price. With all the mortal wounds flying around lately, paying extra for Ethereal feels rough. 

Currently my opinion on NH is that we have a weak magic phase (compared to recent releases), no shooting, but a good melee, although one reliant on luck for 10+ charges, and weak survivability. It really feels like playing in hard mode as said earlier, and a bit less fun, as other battletomes have interesting and rich gameplay. Ours is not really rewarding as it's basically trying to cripple the enemy in alpha strike to hope being able to survive the rest of the game to score points. 

That said, Kurdoss looks really nice to me now, I already wanted to buy him a while back but I think he'll be in my next purchases to join Olynder and Reikenor in my shelf (oh how I long for games). 

The Dreadscythes and Bladegheist were around the same power level but not with 10 pts less I think the edge is definitely in their favour. I did the maths a while back and both units were very samey, now that they're cheaper they can't be worse.

Glad they're giving Hexwraiths another discount too, they're quite terrible outside of Dolorous Guard and even then I only use them as bodyguards as their damage output is miserable.

[Greasygeek]

9 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

They are changes from the battletome. The asterisk represents when the points value are not what they are in the battletome. 

Im pretty sure that the asterisk just means that points have been changed since the last GHB or bttletome. In case of the Blck Coach and some of the other mentioned units, they had their points changed about six month ago during the big FAQ thats realeased six month prior to the next GHB. However since none of these changes has been bookpublished they have the asterisk to let us know that something has happend since the last Ghb. Even though this is old news.

[The_Dudemeister]

3 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

It's better than before, but I haven't seen the changes for other factions. I just hope they didn't make Fyreslayers cheaper again

All 3 Magmadroth variants are now 10 points cheaper each. 🙃