AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[The_Dudemeister]

9 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Spirit Torment: ... But his real benefit is Captured Soul Energy, which is one of the few healing or model return abilities we have that can't be interrupted. Not the best, since it requires the enemy to fail battleshock and works only once per battleshock phase, but not the worst since it can't be unbound. Useful, at least.

Correction: That's the allegiance ability so every Nighthaunt Hero benefits from the healing when an enemy unit fails battleshock. Spirit Torment has the most versatile healing mechanic of any Death hero and functions fundamentally different to any other.

- While every other hero can only resurrect when there's no wound allocated anymore, ST can absolutely try to bring back a Hexwraith or Spirit Host when there's a model with only one wound left. Even Arkhan's all new healing kept the old either-or mechanic.

- He doesn't just heal SUMMONABLE units like all the others but any Nighthaunt unit. So he heals heroes too.

- He heals at the start of the battleshock phase. As it happens before the battleshock roll is made, every guy you bring back with him doesn't count towards slain models so makes your roll easier to pass. (Enemy units failing battleshock count as slain but he heals before they make and potentially fail battleshock so never count for his healing.)

- The condition that 3 models had to be slain this turn is pretty weird and kinda unnecessary. But at least it's fluffy as he reaps the souls straight from the battlefield. And it shows how much Games Workshop overvalued healing as this mechanic is there to keep us from spamming him (A second Spirit Torment would need yet another 3 slain models to activate the healing). Oh well, at least this mechanic has no range.

 

[The_Dudemeister]

Also I found a use for the teeny weeny Cairn Wraith. I like to use the Sword of Judgement every once in a while so I'm drawn to the realm of Ulgu anyway. It has another neat little artefact:

Quote

Betrayer's Crown

Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, pick an enemy unit within 3" of the bearer that has two or more models. Roll a dice for each model in that enemy unit. For each 5+ that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

I just park him behind my Chainrasp screen against armies with good alpha strikes. When the combat phase starts, before the opponent even attacks, he deals 1/3rd of the unit size as mortal wounds and later in the actual fight, he also has 2" reach anyway so can also still fight.

He only costs 60 points, so with the damage he potentially does to other horde units plus the damage mitigated from the slain models that can't attack anymore, he makes his points back every time and then some. I also use him in suicide charges just for that so I can choose my targets when it's my turn.

[Piikalo1]

If you from the underworlds they come and cant fit the whole unit outside 9 of an enemy are you prohibited from making the teleport all together or do you slay whatever doesnt fit?

[EnixLHQ]

8 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Correction:

- He heals at the start of the battleshock phase. As it happens before the battleshock roll is made, every guy you bring back with him doesn't count towards slain models so makes your roll easier to pass. (Enemy units failing battleshock count as slain but he heals before they make and potentially fail battleshock so never count for his healing.)

That's really the only correction needed for what I said. I wasn't confusing it with Feed on Terror, I just misstook when CSE triggers. I'll go correct that now.

It does have a range, though. The trigger is battlefield-wide, but the heal or model return is within 6" of the ST.

3 hours ago, Piikalo1 said:

If you from the underworlds they come and cant fit the whole unit outside 9 of an enemy are you prohibited from making the teleport all together or do you slay whatever doesnt fit?

The whole unit has to fit or you can't deploy it. Nothing is slain unless you can't deploy it by the start of the 4th battleround, so you have 3 movement phases to find a spot.

[EnixLHQ]

8 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Also I found a use for the teeny weeny Cairn Wraith.

Since I'm always from Hysh, if I'm taking the Cairn Wraith I'll usually give him a NH artifact. Sometimes Midnight Tome so he can Shademist whatever unit he's with, but more often Slitter. Slitter has slain half of entire units for me. Just make sure he's in the middle of the front line and don't activate him to fight until the enemy unit you're targeting is exhausted for that round and, voila, half a unit gone.

[Maglynn]

Are there any general guides to Nighthaunt for people new to the faction? Apologies if I've missed them, working through 160 pages takes a while ^^

[SleeperAgent]

18 minutes ago, Maglynn said:

Are there any general guides to Nighthaunt for people new to the faction? Apologies if I've missed them, working through 160 pages takes a while ^^

Use minimum-sized units to fish for Wave of Terror.

A max unit of Chainrasps is darn near unkillable.

Spirit Torments are invaluable for 120 points.

Ruler of the Spirit Hosts is basically our only command trait.

Half of your army can be setup in deep strike. Use this a lot.

Dreadblade Harrow is amazing for mobility. He can redeploy anywhere outside of 9" of enemies and can immediately bring any unit to him for one command point.

This is a board spanning army. Everything flies and has ethereal. Use that to your advantage.

[Maglynn]

Thanks! It looks (from what I've digested so far) like you can do stuff where you just refuse to die and keep coming back - is that actually practical, or is it a bit more 'flash' than 'bang'?

[relic456]

@Maglynn Nighthaunt recursion isn't very good compared to other Death armies and generally isn't a highlight of the army. The highlights are more around being mobile due to flying and deepstrike.

Edited January 20, 2020 by relic456

[SleeperAgent]

9 hours ago, Maglynn said:

Thanks! It looks (from what I've digested so far) like you can do stuff where you just refuse to die and keep coming back - is that actually practical, or is it a bit more 'flash' than 'bang'?

Sadly our recursion isn't up to the lore of a bunch of ghosts. But you can do some cool things. Like take a bigger unit of Spirit Hosts and surrounds your general with em. They're all 3 wounds, 4 up save ethereal, and you return d3 every hero phase. Black Coach does the same and got a good points drop recently.

[Casandora Yellow]

@Maglynn a youtuber called telltalenoob did an extensive discussion on Nighthaunt, 47 videos to be exact.This helped me learn the ins and outside of the army. It's a year and a half old but still should hold up in my opinion.

Hope this helps.

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvXpyaZhafFfC9Te7nYimSDxaBqbmZb_e

 

[Maglynn]

Excellent, thanks!

[Nogginnocker]

On 1/19/2020 at 4:46 AM, The_Dudemeister said:

- He heals at the start of the battleshock phase. As it happens before the battleshock roll is made, every guy you bring back with him doesn't count towards slain models so makes your roll easier to pass. (Enemy units failing battleshock count as slain but he heals before they make and potentially fail battleshock so never count for his healing.)

 

 

I just want to point out that this portion of your post was inaccurate. Per the FAQ:

"Q: If a model is slain but later returned to its unit in the same turn, does it count as being slain for battleshock tests? If it were slain, returned and slain again, would it count as being slain twice?

A: Yes to both questions."

[Nogginnocker]

Playing against multiple Tzeentch players, who happen to be my friends in my local meta, has really bummed me out. I don't feel like playing AoS anymore. The Hosts Duplicitous combined with Change Host and fate dice for a guaranteed charge on T1 is an absolutely devasting combo. Being completely rooted in place by either a 50 wound unit (10 pinks) or a 100 wound unit (20 pinks) that I simply cannot kill for many turns makes for an incredibly demoralizing experience. You cannot retreat. At all. Why, GW? Why would you introduce this? I also simply can't play at all in the magic phase. Ugh. The joy of the game is gone for me.   

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention. My units are almost always at least -2 to hit, sometimes -3. So, I'm literally hitting only on 6s. Ugggggggggh. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Nogginnocker

[SleeperAgent]

1 hour ago, Nogginnocker said:

Playing against multiple Tzeentch players, who happen to be my friends in my local meta, has really bummed me out. I don't feel like playing AoS anymore. The Hosts Duplicitous combined with Change Host and fate dice for a guaranteed charge on T1 is an absolutely devasting combo. Being completely rooted in place by either a 50 wound unit (10 pinks) or a 100 wound unit (20 pinks) that I simply cannot kill for many turns makes for an incredibly demoralizing experience. You cannot retreat. At all. Why, GW? Why would you introduce this? I also simply can't play at all in the magic phase. Ugh. The joy of the game is gone for me.   

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention. My units are almost always at least -2 to hit, sometimes -3. So, I'm literally hitting only on 6s. Ugggggggggh. 

For this scenario I'd like to bring 3 units of 6 Spirit Hosts and sit a Spirit Torment behind them. Just overwhelm with dice for mortal wounds. Also, if you can get a Mourngul, he tears through chaff like that. Don't forget battleshock will be exceedingly tough if you manage to kill the last pink, because he's wasting those 1's and 2's from his destiny dice to save blues or brimstones.. And every 3 you kill lets you heal with your Spirit Torments. Combined with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts you can be pretty much as durable as his pinks. 

Also, don't forget that HALF your army can be brought in from the underworld. Drop your battlelines in your front row with a hero behind them and deep strike the rest. Yeah his pinks will hold up your front line for turns, but you are free to drop in on his heroes behind and wreak havoc. I've killed many a chicken (Lord of Change) with my Mournguls.

Another thing to think of, if you have Bladeghiest Revenants they can just retreat away flying over the pinks and charge a better target.

Edited January 23, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[Nogginnocker]

6 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Another thing to think of, if you have Bladeghiest Revenants they can just retreat away flying over the pinks and charge a better target.

No. They can't. Literally, you are NOT allowed to retreat. Period. Full stop. They removed that ability of yours when you fight against Hosts Duplicitous. If you haven't played against it yet. Please, go ahead and try. I would love to read a successful battle report. I'll wait. Trust me. I want some hope...

[Nogginnocker]

If you don't believe me, Vince Venturella's Warhammer Weekly is currently live on YouTube. 

 

 

[Nogginnocker]

And once you commit to charge, because I've thought of leaving half of my army in the underworlds, they are permanently locked in place once they get within 3" of a Tzeentch unit in that particular cult. Every opponent I play is a competent general and does NOT leave the rest of their army open to me dropping in behind them. They actually screen properly. There is literally no winning in this scenario for Nighthaunt.  Don't forget, you're hitting with melee weapons at -2 or -3 to hit against their units. I was literally hitting only on 6s.

[Undeadly]

35 minutes ago, Nogginnocker said:

And once you commit to charge, because I've thought of leaving half of my army in the underworlds, they are permanently locked in place once they get within 3" of a Tzeentch unit in that particular cult. Every opponent I play is a competent general and does NOT leave the rest of their army open to me dropping in behind them. They actually screen properly. There is literally no winning in this scenario for Nighthaunt.  Don't forget, you're hitting with melee weapons at -2 or -3 to hit against their units. I was literally hitting only on 6s.

What were the spells/abilities that were giving you -1 to hit?

[Nogginnocker]

Locus of Change (-1 to hit with melee weapons), Geminids (-1 to hit Geminid ability),  and occasionally arcane suggestion. It was brutal, to say the less.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Nogginnocker

[Undeadly]

8 minutes ago, Nogginnocker said:

Locus of Change (-1 to hit with melee weapons), Geminids (-1 to hit Geminid ability),  and occasionally arcane suggestion. It was brutal, to say the less.

Yikes, yeah, that is a brutal combo; if I had to pick something off the top of my head, throwing in the new Arkhan might be a decent way to shut down those spells, unbind the Geminids, and maybe try to snipe heros with Arcane bolt spam.

[SleeperAgent]

1 hour ago, Nogginnocker said:

No. They can't. Literally, you are NOT allowed to retreat. Period. Full stop. They removed that ability of yours when you fight against Hosts Duplicitous. If you haven't played against it yet. Please, go ahead and try. I would love to read a successful battle report. I'll wait. Trust me. I want some hope...

Ok then the bladegheist rev trick wont work. But there is no way he is paying 200 per unit of pinks and has enough to screen you from everything. You said he even has a 20 man unit, thats 400 points. Yeah its a tarpit you can get locked in combat with,  screen your things properly with min sized Chainrasp units.

Also, make sure that this tarpit is WHOLLY WITHIN 12" of the hero. Otherwise that -1 falls off. If it's that big of a problem, bring a Knight of Shrouds on foot and use the command ability to give +1 to hit. Its a numbers game. If hes using a 120 point hero (changeling), 60 for geminids, with 200 of pinks, just to give -3 to a single unit, thats a huge investment. And geminids and arcane suggestion both have to go off. 20% of his army to give one single unit -3 to hit. While everything else is -1 IF the hero is wholly within 12". In some cases it will go off for him, but thats a lot of points and multiple ifs.

There are always huge gaps in lists like this when one devotes so much of their army to a hard combo like that.

 

EDIT: Also, you can use a Dreadblade Harrow to teleport any unit out of combat with his Host Duplicitous unit. It's not considered a retreat.

Edited January 23, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

And every 3 you kill lets you heal with your Spirit Torments.

3 per Spirit Torment, and only once each.

2 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

Playing against multiple Tzeentch players, who happen to be my friends in my local meta, has really bummed me out. I don't feel like playing AoS anymore. 

Yes, that sounds brutal. You've got a few options, though.

How large are the units you're running? Maybe going as many minimum-sized units you can might help. You will lose whole units left and right, but it's a bit harder to tie up half a dozen of them all at once, and that might be all you need to put pressure on.

Bring a Knight of Shrouds (on foot). For a CP you can give everyone in a bubble + to hit. Down -2? 2 CP nets you back to zero.

Spectral Summons works even when either the unit summoned or the general is in combat. If you're taking a Dreadblade Harrows then you could use his teleport to stay away from danger and then spend a CP to pull a unit out of combat. That unit can either charge back in, or heal up. Or, if you go maxed unit sizes, distract an enemy unit so they move off an objective enough to engage you, teleport your DH behind them, and then teleport a unit to that location, be it an objective (most models within 6" get it unless the battleplan says otherwise) or a hero.

Consider Legion of Grief. Same models, better healing, better CP generation. Put most of the gravesites in the middle of the field, or near the biggest threat, and then heal from them every turn. Keep one back with a general on it to resurrect whole lost units to send back into battle.

If they are your friends, ask them what about Nighthaunt scares them. Talk openly. If they're misunderstanding their rules they should be open to being corrected, and so should you. If they know of a weakness you could exploit, they may be happy to tell you in order to keep the game fun. I did this just recently because I'm the one everyone guns for at the table, and it was more fun for me to make sure my friends can compete with me.

[Nogginnocker]

 

9 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Ok then the bladegheist rev trick wont work. But there is no way he is paying 200 per unit of pinks and has enough to screen you from everything. You said he even has a 20 man unit, thats 400 points. Yeah its a tarpit you can get locked in combat with,  screen your things properly with min sized Chainrasp units.

Also, make sure that this tarpit is WHOLLY WITHIN 12" of the hero. Otherwise that -1 falls off. If it's that big of a problem, bring a Knight of Shrouds on foot and use the command ability to give +1 to hit. Its a numbers game. If hes using a 120 point hero (changeling), 60 for geminids, with 200 of pinks, just to give -3 to a single unit, thats a huge investment. And geminids and arcane suggestion both have to go off. 20% of his army to give one single unit -3 to hit. While everything else is -1 IF the hero is wholly within 12". In some cases it will go off for him, but thats a lot of points and multiple ifs.

There are always huge gaps in lists like this when one devotes so much of their army to a hard combo like that.

 

EDIT: Also, you can use a Dreadblade Harrow to teleport any unit out of combat with his Host Duplicitous unit. It's not considered a retreat.

The last time I played, it was against against a unit of 20 pinks in the center of the board where the objective was certainly going to fall (starstrike on turn two).  However, I think you severely underestimate the ability for the opponent to properly screen using a simple 60 pts screen of 10 brimstone horrors and other Tzeentch Horror Heroes. It was great for him, very bad for me. I looked at the initial deployment and knew I had already lost. There was no way I could drop my 5 man of bladegheist revenants (which I had held back to potentially deep strike against his LoC) and my 10 man of grimghast reapers anywhere effectively. Again, I urge you to seek out a Hosts Duplicitous opponent and play them. Then post your results here as an abbreviated bat rep. It will blow your mind how insane this army ability truly is once you actually play it against a competent general. 

" Also, you can use a Dreadblade Harrow to teleport any unit out of combat with his Host Duplicitous unit. It's not considered a retreat."

This is actually really cool. I hadn't considered that since I had been so focuses on the Dolorous Guard.  It just sucks that DG is no longer a viable option. RIP the, what, 1 month it actually lived??  Oh well. NH VERY briefly had something to enjoy before Tzeentch ripped it from our bosom. Lady Olynder is once again offically dead as a general for NH... Sad.   I guess back to the same old cookie cutter Dreadblade Harrows as the general. Booh.  

Changehost always goes first against NH if they want to. They can very easily move their hero within 12" of the horrors unit and screen us out on our turn for "deepstrike". I laugh at the term "deep strike" and intentionally put it in quotes because my opponents are actually competent and no how to properly screen for it, so I always end up losing a turn of action for those units.  

Once again, I ask that you play against a Hosts Duplicitous army that is helmed by a competent general and tell me how it goes. I'm genuinely curious. I really do want to have hope against my local meta instead of hanging up my AoS armies (NH, IJ, Skaven, and Destruction) to play video games or guitar instead.

[SleeperAgent]

11 minutes ago, Nogginnocker said:

 

The last time I played, it was against against a unit of 20 pinks in the center of the board where the objective was certainly going to fall (starstrike on turn two).  However, I think you severely underestimate the ability for the opponent to properly screen using a simple 60 pts screen of 10 brimstone horrors and other Tzeentch Horror Heroes. It was great for him, very bad for me. I looked at the initial deployment and knew I had already lost. There was no way I could drop my 5 man of bladegheist revenants (which I had held back to potentially deep strike against his LoC) and my 10 man of grimghast reapers anywhere effectively. Again, I urge you to seek out a Hosts Duplicitous opponent and play them. Then post your results here as an abbreviated bat rep. It will blow your mind how insane this army ability truly is once you actually play it against a competent general. 

" Also, you can use a Dreadblade Harrow to teleport any unit out of combat with his Host Duplicitous unit. It's not considered a retreat."

This is actually really cool. I hadn't considered that since I had been so focuses on the Dolorous Guard.  It just sucks that DG is no longer a viable option. RIP the, what, 1 month it actually lived??  Oh well. NH VERY briefly had something to enjoy before Tzeentch ripped it from our bosom. Lady Olynder is once again offically dead as a general for NH... Sad.   I guess back to the same old cookie cutter Dreadblade Harrows as the general. Booh.  

Changehost always goes first against NH if they want to. They can very easily move their hero within 12" of the horrors unit and screen us out on our turn for "deepstrike". I laugh at the term "deep strike" and intentionally put it in quotes because my opponents are actually competent and no how to properly screen for it, so I always end up losing a turn of action for those units.  

Once again, I ask that you play against a Hosts Duplicitous army that is helmed by a competent general and tell me how it goes. I'm genuinely curious. I really do want to have hope against my local meta instead of hanging up my AoS armies (NH, IJ, Skaven, and Destruction) to play video games or guitar instead.

I know it aint much help, but I probably wont get to play against Tzeentch anytime soon. No one around here plays it. But I've dealth with other -1 and -2's to hit.

As is tradition, wait for the FAQ. It'll undoubtedly change some things for Tzeentch. I could easily see Changehost going up a lot of points or change how you move things.

As for Olynder, I don't think IOve ever used her as my general. It just nerfs NH too much to not have access to Ruler of the Spirit Hosts.