AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

Or 2d3 at least

[Aaranis]

Yeah our healing is really underwhelming compared to LoN were every useful Hero like the Necromancer and Vampire Lord gets to resurrect 2d3 passively. Nighthaunt is a weird army in that it's the opposite of a Death army: it hits hard and fast but has no durability. I'm okay with keeping the Guardian of Souls but 140 pts for a meagre chance at healing 1d6 models and the +1 to Wound is too much. I'd play him at 100 pts just for the +1 to Wound bit he's too much of a frail target at his point cost.

[SleeperAgent]

6 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

Yeah our healing is really underwhelming compared to LoN were every useful Hero like the Necromancer and Vampire Lord gets to resurrect 2d3 passively. Nighthaunt is a weird army in that it's the opposite of a Death army: it hits hard and fast but has no durability. I'm okay with keeping the Guardian of Souls but 140 pts for a meagre chance at healing 1d6 models and the +1 to Wound is too much. I'd play him at 100 pts just for the +1 to Wound bit he's too much of a frail target at his point cost.

The only way for me to see him staying at 140 is if they let all GoS cast Spectral Lure regardless of another one trying. I'd probably run 3-4 then, even at 140.

[Aaranis]

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

The only way for me to see him staying at 140 is if they let all GoS cast Spectral Lure regardless of another one trying. I'd probably run 3-4 then, even at 140.

I don't know, even then I feel like there's already so many points we have to invest in Heroes that having multiple GoS seems wrong. In some lists I think about running two Spirit Torments but even then I feel like it's too much. Plainly said, our Heroes don't do that much compared to the newest battletomes... But if I start rambling about the new battletomes I'll end up saltier than the Dead Sea.

[The_Dudemeister]

Another problem is that GoS is not only vastly overcosted for what he actually does on the table. He's also our cheapest wizard. At 140 that's quite ridiculous. I regularly spend one of my battalion's artefacts to give Midnight Tome to one of our cheap (and otherwise almost useless) heroes.

Cairn Wraith is a very nice filler hero as a wizard. He's too squishy, too weak and doesn't buff or do anything usually other than giving a unit Deathless save... and just with those few 6s he hardly ever gets his points back with the mitigated damage. But as a wizard in the second line where he belongs, he's a useful addition for cheap. I just wish we didn't need to sacrifice an artefact for a cheap support character like other armies, so we're completely missing out on thgis role. The Guardian of Souls has a premium price tag and is just okay .

[EnixLHQ]

Wouldn't need a whole battletome, just some errata to the allegiance abilities.

Since it's Christmas and we're musing, here's what I asked Nagash for the all the little Nighthaunters (what I wrote GW in a rambling analysis email).

• Please, oh dark lord, great us a solid healing mechanic (chose one)
  • (slight fix) How about the Spirit Torment's Captured Soul Energy ability army-wide on all heroes?
  • (major fix) Ruler of the Spirit Host is now an Allegiance Ability for our heroes, and the Command Trait is replaced with "Call of the Sorrowful: Once per turn at the end of the movement phase, you can pick a friendly Summonable Nighthaunt unit that has been destroyed. Set up that unit wholly within 9" of this general." And, Lady Olynder can take this Command Trait as General and retain her Command Ability.
  • (split the difference) Just replace the Command Trait with the above.
  • (bonus) Guardian of Souls can cast Spectral Lure in addition to another spell in their hero phase. This does not grant another unbind attempt.
• And, to punish those who draw your ire, let us go all-in on Wave of Terror
  • WoT is now an army-wide Command Ability with the verbage "You can use this command ability in your charge phase. If you do so, pick a friendly Nighthaunt unit within 18" of any Nighthaunt hero and has made a charge move this turn. That unit may pile in and fight as though it was the combat phase. This does not stop the unit from being picked to fight in the combat phase this turn. A unit cannot benefit from this command ability more than once per phase."

Personally, I don't expect anything, but it never hurts to let them know how you feel. Anyone with a gripe should take the time to write GW and offer your own solutions. Feel free to copy mine 😊

Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays!

[Neck-Romantic]

It truly wouldnt take much to help us out.

Giving the GoS an additional cast, or make Lure just a dumb-fire ability rather than a spellcast, or removing the Torments' models slain requirement would help. (Ever go all-in and kill some giant Dragon for 20 wounds and realize its one model so your ST cannot heal? Good times)

[SleeperAgent]

5 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Wouldn't need a whole battletome, just some errata to the allegiance abilities.

Since it's Christmas and we're musing, here's what I asked Nagash for the all the little Nighthaunters (what I wrote GW in a rambling analysis email).

• Please, oh dark lord, great us a solid healing mechanic (chose one)
  • (slight fix) How about the Spirit Torment's Captured Soul Energy ability army-wide on all heroes?
  • (major fix) Ruler of the Spirit Host is now an Allegiance Ability for our heroes, and the Command Trait is replaced with "Call of the Sorrowful: Once per turn at the end of the movement phase, you can pick a friendly Summonable Nighthaunt unit that has been destroyed. Set up that unit wholly within 9" of this general." And, Lady Olynder can take this Command Trait as General and retain her Command Ability.
  • (split the difference) Just replace the Command Trait with the above.
  • (bonus) Guardian of Souls can cast Spectral Lure in addition to another spell in their hero phase. This does not grant another unbind attempt.
• And, to punish those who draw your ire, let us go all-in on Wave of Terror
  • WoT is now an army-wide Command Ability with the verbage "You can use this command ability in your charge phase. If you do so, pick a friendly Nighthaunt unit within 18" of any Nighthaunt hero and has made a charge move this turn. That unit may pile in and fight as though it was the combat phase. This does not stop the unit from being picked to fight in the combat phase this turn. A unit cannot benefit from this command ability more than once per phase."

Personally, I don't expect anything, but it never hurts to let them know how you feel. Anyone with a gripe should take the time to write GW and offer your own solutions. Feel free to copy mine 😊

Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays!

Ruler of the Spirit hosts becoming allegiance ability for all heroes would right the ship in a very meaningful way.

WoT as it's worded there is pretty broken. It's way more powerful than Feeding Frenzy/Excess of Violence because you get to do it charge phase. I would prefer to not be the new broken jank in the activation wars. I'd like it more if they just made a couple of the battalions work like death riders. WoT's on 9's in addition to the regular abilities. Then give death riders something to compensate. Or at least tack on "units in this battalion can retreat and charge in the same turn" to all the battalions (or even allegiance abilities). That way WoT's are still hard to pull of, but we get a LOT more chances.

[Neffelo]

They should really just have it as an auto-ability at this point. All of the OBR healing is either just rolls like the Harvester, or for free with the Boneshaper/Arkhan.

I'd like to see a unique allegiance ability like "Spectral Ranks" Add 1' to all Nighthaunt weapon range. I think that would be cool and simulate the ethereal nature of being able to phase through an attack without the issue of bodies getting in the way. 

I still think the Tome needs a full rewrite to really fix anything. Anything we add would just be a temporary band-aid. We really need most of the tome rewritten to fix a lot of the poor units, the summoning, multiple legions, and other things. 

[Neck-Romantic]

I agree with you @Neffelo

Being the first book of a new edition can be trouble, and it feels like our ethereal gimmick is just not enough to hold up with the creep.

On RotSH becoming free for all our heroes... only if its limited to once per unit per turn I think. You would start seeing max size units of Hosts/Hexes as Deathstars

[Garxia]

In lore we are defined as a shock army full of durable ghosts, but in game we are neither.

One easy fix would be making Nighthaunt units fight first on the turn they charge and keeping WoT as of now (maybe lowering it to 9+), giving us both an offensive and defensive buff.

We also need some improved healing,  and giving every NH  hero deathly invocations would be a nice start, that way non-buffing heroes will do something.

[Neck-Romantic]

Expanding Spectral Summons beyond the general would make for spooky shenanigans

[Neck-Romantic]

One idea I thought of was giving the army a 6" pile-in. Would play into the etgereal shift ranks bit; allowing us to glide past screens and get at the more choice targets; at the cost of overextending ourselves out of 'wholly within' range (balance)

Would make WoT actually terrifying as we would come in, damage something, and pile-in out of range of the initial target.

Blades and Glaves would be terrifying in their mobility

Edited December 26, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[EnixLHQ]

I had a Christmas Day Bash!

Running the Dolorous Guard with Olynder as general, and the Forgotten Scions, I gave the Cities of Sigmar what for.

Uh, my theme of this being a holiday dance didn't really kick in as I wrote this, but a 2 AM write up after a long day of holidaying will have some mistakes. But hey, there's a few video clips, which is nice!

Edited December 26, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Aaranis]

5 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I had a Christmas Day Bash!

Running the Dolorous Guard with Olynder as general, and the Forgotten Scions, I gave the Cities of Sigmar what for.

Uh, my theme of this being a holiday dance didn't really kick in as I wrote this, but a 2 AM write up after a long day of holidaying will have some mistakes. But hey, there's a few video clips, which is nice!

Nice bat rep ! I'll admit I felt quite frustrated reading you forgot your hero phase and the +1A from the Forgotten Scions, I know how it feels !

Speaking of the Forgotten Scions, I've run dice throwing tests and I've come to the conclusion that the mounted KoS in the Forgotten Scions might be a serious contender against the Lord Executioner for the role of bearer of the Sword of Judgement.

He has 5A base against the 3A base from the LE, and can boost himself freely once per round for +1A, doubling the number of dice rolled compared to the LE. However, he don't have a natural +1 to Hit due to the Spirit Hosts nearby, so combined with Olynder's spell and 1CP for the KoS on foot ability he'll hit his target with +2 against the +3 of the LE, meaning procs of the Sword on 4+ against 3+. However you have nearly the double number of attacks.

Another change is survivability: the LE will have -1 to be hit as long as the Spirit Hosts are nearby, and can debuff an additional -1 on a Hero, coupled with his 5+ against MWs. The KoS don't have these defenses.

However on matters of utility, the LE exists strictly to hunt Heroes and Monsters in this set-up, and may lack the speed and room to do so in some cases (reminder that he needs at least one model of Spirit Hosts within 6" of his prey). The KoSoES have the speed and needs way less room, allowing him to sneak better to his target. Plus, if you don't really need to hunt important targets, he's still a useful Hero that works well with everything in the army barring Spirit Hosts who don't benefit greatly from a +1A.

Rolling some dice tests I consistently roll for an average of 12+ MWs  with 6A and rerolls of 1s to Hit, assuming I have +2 to Hit from the KoS and Olynder's spell. On average 3 dice will roll 4+, so around 9-10 MWs compared to the 7-8 from the LE. And weight of dice, in my humble opinion, is more reliable when you need those procs.

For protection I'd use the new Dolorous Guard battalion of 2x5 Hexwraiths, as they can keep up with the speed and benefit from Ruler of the Spirit Hosts. It brings us back to the footprint problem, but at least Hexwraiths have double the speed of the Spirit Hosts. As there's two Dreadblade Harrows tagging along, one should carry the Pendant of the Fell Winds so the jolly troupe can move 15". The other can carry another artefact and either tag along or support the rest of the army with a Midnight Tome or something.

Brings a cavalry themed force that can cover a lot of ground and hunt down Heroes and Monsters reliably anywhere on the board while still being useful at other roles. You can bypass the Dolorous Guard for the KoSoES and make Olynder the general for Olynder bombs, but then he becomes a kamikaze as he probably won't survive long after that.

I'll definitely try this someday, I'll keep you in touch.

[Gr1mghastDan]

Hey guys,

Fairly new Nighthaunt player here seeking a bit of help with the lovely ghosties. My group isn't super competitive and my most regular opponent is BoK but he's just picked up Skarbrand and Archaon. He loves massive smashy smash lists with big ass monsters. As an army with pretty much nothing like that, what are folks tactics for going up against this sort of thing? My first thoughts are play way more to the mission and beat him that way due to having more units etc.

In the handful of games we've had so far I've found my Chainrasps with support tend to hold the Bloodthirsters up surprisingly well but I'm quite worried about Skarbrands utter nonsense MW output and the new rules for Archaon. Would this tactic still work? I'm thinking letting big units soak up the charge, and counter charge with Reapers/Bladegheists that are buffed up with GoS/Spirit Torments/KoSoES etc etc?

Cheers all

 

[Neck-Romantic]

Lord Executioner w/ Battalion, -1 to hit relic and a Mourngul tagging along? 😁

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Gr1mghastDan said:

Hey guys,

Fairly new Nighthaunt player here seeking a bit of help with the lovely ghosties. My group isn't super competitive and my most regular opponent is BoK but he's just picked up Skarbrand and Archaon. He loves massive smashy smash lists with big ass monsters. As an army with pretty much nothing like that, what are folks tactics for going up against this sort of thing? My first thoughts are play way more to the mission and beat him that way due to having more units etc.

In the handful of games we've had so far I've found my Chainrasps with support tend to hold the Bloodthirsters up surprisingly well but I'm quite worried about Skarbrands utter nonsense MW output and the new rules for Archaon. Would this tactic still work? I'm thinking letting big units soak up the charge, and counter charge with Reapers/Bladegheists that are buffed up with GoS/Spirit Torments/KoSoES etc etc?

Cheers all

 

Number one: Play the objectives. There are very few battleplans that require you to take on the big bad across the table directly, and those that do often have a more fair way to gain those points other than total annihilation. We are a superior army when it comes to objective claiming and defending with our quick units and From the Underworlds.

Two: Know your tricks and tactics. Use the rules as written to your advantage. For example, most battleplans don't require you to hold an objective, just to claim it and then deny your opponent from claiming it. Depending on battleplan that could be as simple as zoning in on the objectives on turn 1 with From the Underworlds and then charging with everything at the enemy just to deny them getting close enough to flip the claim in the turns limit.

Three: Take battalions. One or two, given points being played. In our army battalions are synonymous with specializing or equipment loadouts. They allow you to counter an enemy by choosing from a variety of benefits that usually exploit specific enemies. You already know that Khorne will shut down magic and love close combat, so Shroudguard is a solid counter.

Four: Target weaknesses. Khorne relies on their heroes just like we do, so target them. With our flying we can move over and retreat through the front lines to attack a hero or general. We also have artifacts, like Slitter, than can halve a unit under the right conditions, or can target specific models. Reikenor, even though he's a mage, can use his Snuff on specific models to remove buffs from a unit.

Five: Don't forget your own buffs. His brand new big bad that'll squish anything that gets too close? Grab a battle-capable hero, make him a general, give him Ruler of the Spirit Host, bring the Dolorous Guard battalion, and give him an artifact that'll greatly increase his wound output. Hell, this set-up with a Knight of Shrouds on foot with the Sword of Judgement and spending 3 CP means every 3 on a die roll is a D6 mortal wounds if you're attacking a hero or monster. I would never argue this to win a game, but bringing a hard counter to his set-piece can be a great reminder that not only does a giant threat not win games, but Nighthaunt is an excellent counter army.

[EnixLHQ]

No pictures or videos in this one, but I get into what I like and don't like about an Olynderbomb using Dolorous Guard, and my takes on the two new battalions we got from White Dwarf.

[VeilAers]

Ruler of the Spirit Hosts says "At the start of your hero phase, you can pick a friendly SUMMONABLE NIGHTHAUNT unit within 9" of this general and return D3 slain models to that unit. The returning models must be set up within 9" of this general." Just says "a" and not a number. Does this mean I can select as many units in range as I can?

[SleeperAgent]

11 minutes ago, VeilAers said:

Ruler of the Spirit Hosts says "At the start of your hero phase, you can pick a friendly SUMMONABLE NIGHTHAUNT unit within 9" of this general and return D3 slain models to that unit. The returning models must be set up within 9" of this general." Just says "a" and not a number. Does this mean I can select as many units in range as I can?

"A" is singular. You can pick any of them, but only one. If it were multiple it would be worded like Olynder  "each friendly".

[VeilAers]

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

 

That sucks. But thank you!

[SleeperAgent]

51 minutes ago, VeilAers said:

That sucks. But thank you!

It does suck, and we are hoping when the Nighthaunt get a real 2.0 release a lot of the things are better. Makes no sense that the other Death Legions can return whole units for a command point and at best we can return 5-15 models over the course of a game.  Im hoping Nighthaunt and Legion of Grief are rolled into one cohesive army down the line with the best of both included. Then we'd have a real chance.

Edited December 31, 2019 by SleeperAgent

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

"A" is singular. You can pick any of them, but only one. If it were multiple it would be worded like Olynder  "each friendly".

Can you imagine? Such a simple change would make a huge difference.

2 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

It does suck, and we are hoping when the Nighthaunt get a real 2.0 release a lot of the things are better. Makes no sense that the other Death Legions can return whole units for a command point and at best we can return 5-15 models over the course of a game.  Im hoping Nighthaunt and Legion of Grief are rolled into one cohesive army down the line with the best of both included. Then we'd have a real chance.

We do have a real chance as it is, currently. We're a 45%-or-so winrate army at the tournament level, and probably a bit higher now with the two new battalions. We'll have to see, but we're not trash.

I've made the point before that we're more like assassins than an army; if we prepare for the enemy then they are going down, but we're not well-rounded enough that a single list can make it at most tournaments. Our strengths are also our weaknesses.

I agree we need a complete rework of our base Nighthaunt abilities. We were sold on an army that was fast, deadly, and neverending. Yeah, we're fast. Deadly? Only on a 10, really. Neverending? Not even close. FEC can spend a CP to fight again, and even get it for free once a turn. They can also resurrect and summon certain units. And any Legions army can return any destroyed unit for a CP.

[SleeperAgent]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Can you imagine? Such a simple change would make a huge difference.

We do have a real chance as it is, currently. We're a 45%-or-so winrate army at the tournament level, and probably a bit higher now with the two new battalions. We'll have to see, but we're not trash.

I've made the point before that we're more like assassins than an army; if we prepare for the enemy then they are going down, but we're not well-rounded enough that a single list can make it at most tournaments. Our strengths are also our weaknesses.

I agree we need a complete rework of our base Nighthaunt abilities. We were sold on an army that was fast, deadly, and neverending. Yeah, we're fast. Deadly? Only on a 10, really. Neverending? Not even close. FEC can spend a CP to fight again, and even get it for free once a turn. They can also resurrect and summon certain units. And any Legions army can return any destroyed unit for a CP.

After seeing Feeding Frenzy, Excess of Violence, Mighty Destroyers, Fyreslayer extra combat I forget, yeah I just want Wave of Terror to actually happen. And I'll be real, some games I get 5+ Waves, but more often I get none. Couple that with the fact that Nighthaunt didn't get an Endless Legions ability makes them not very killy, and not very durable. I think if they just jam Legion of Grief into the Nighthaunt then it would be a lot better. Because combined they would work great. We would still not have a reliable extra combat but we would be able to endure pretty much anything. Which is what ghosts should do.