AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

Hexwraiths get a bonus attack to scythe and horse from DG and KoS command ability iir as well; giving both would be 7 attacks each with 5 each able to proc MW's

[EnixLHQ]

They end up basically being Spirit Hosts like that. Same amount of attacks, half as many MW potential, but more speed, one less wound...

Edited December 17, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Neck-Romantic]

I figure they picked hexes so they could keep up wit the 3 mounted heroes but its such an odd mismatch to have Oly or any of the movement 6 heroes bracketed by movement 12 hexes

[EnixLHQ]

I'm sure they are fully aware that Oly isn't the general pick in her own army, or that the Dreadblade is almost an auto-pick in most lists across both NH and LoG. We're billed as a fast shock army, so it makes sense to me there is some speed options. Plus, now we'll actually see Hex lists.

[Neck-Romantic]

I used to run hexes in a 10 man blob before getting 30 bladegheists finished

[EnixLHQ]

Ha, I ran 10 Hexblades exactly once in my entire Nighthaunt/LoG career. For the points there was just something better.

This means I am also guilty of never running the Deathriders battalion. If I wanted the Black Coach I would just run it.

I'm happy all of these things are more viable options now.

[Spears]

Isn't that graph actually comparing 540 points of hex-wraiths though? I get that the battalion comes with its own benefits but it has a minimal drop reduction and Nh have limited decent artifact carriers.

[The_Dudemeister]

That feel when you check the Errata again to see if there are additional points drops and even check the Designer's Commentary for a surprise update

[Undeadly]

Honestly, just thinking about it after reading their warscroll, but here's a thought:

 

Now, they need to be pretty close to get that to work, since you need about 7 or 8 inches to clear a model, but still, with the Cloak of the Waxing Moon, the Chronomatic Cogs, and a CP to auto run 6", you can get 23" of moment for your Hexwraiths.

 

Sure, a unit of 20 Hexwraiths is 540 points. But on average, anything they so much as tag is gonna get 6 MW's dropped on them. Not too shabby.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Undeadly

[Thamalys]

So... in light of the recent points changes (particularly Lady Olynder, but I love the Kurdoss model/mechanics so much that he is game as well) as well as the new battalions, I have had a good think about a “new” (for me)  Nighthaunt list. This discussion has been really useful to identify some novel strength we could leverage: to me, those are having a very though general (via the Dolorous Guard battalion)  and having +1 attack for free (via the Forgotten Scions battalion).

In particular, I wanted to build a list:

• That will allow  great mobility to my units. From the Underworld they Come is a start, but to me the Dreadblade Harrow + Spectral Summons combination is still too good to be overlooked. You win games with it - fact.
• Where my General would stay alive for long enough, ideally throughout the entire game. As per the point above, in my case that’d be the Dreadblade. Problem: we need at least two units of  Hexwraiths to field the Dolorous guard. Moving both of them around will cost a hefty 2 Command Points - a mighty investment. Yes, you could always field 10 and 5 Hexwraiths in two different units and use the 10-man unit only as screen / Spectral Summons target, but then you are left with 5 Hexwraiths for which you pay 140 pts. 
• A solid anvil: my Reapers always delivered, so that one’s easy.
• A decent hammer: this is where I considered the Forgotten Scions. However: the mounted Knight of Shrouds Command Ability comes for free once per battleround, which means that in order to keep the +1 attack for the entire round (it last for one combat phase only) you’ll still need a CP. At that point, a Vampire Lord gives you exactly the same (and he’s a caster as well).  Plus, the cost - same as the Dolorous Guard: the two together cost a lot. Too much.

Result: a list that does not include any battalion and that does not leverage any recent change in points. Have a look, folks:

Spoiler

 Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Mortal Realm: Ghur

LEADERS
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Command Trait : Ruler of the Spirit Hosts - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds : Shademist
Spirit Torment (120)
Vampire Lord (140)
- Flying Horror - Allies

UNITS
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)

BEHEMOTHS
Mourngul (280)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Extra Command Point (50)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 117
LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 140/400
     

This is a rather old-fashion list, I’d say. Can you make it better with respect to the requirement above, by taking advantage of either points changes or new battalions? Try! To me, the bodies you lose are just too many... but I might be wrong!

[Aaranis]

Well if you only swear by the Dreadblade Warlord then yes, Dolorous Guard is rather useless. The Forgotten Scions are good in a list built around it: Myrmourns, Bladegheists, Reapers. And the only recent point changes we got were on named characters and the Black Coach so not much to exploit there I'd argue that the Black Coach would perform better than the Mourngul however, at now 220 pts. But I just don't trust the Mourngul so there's that.

I planned two games tomorrow, first againsy my Fyreslayer nemesis and then against my Flesh-Eater Courts other nemesis. It will be tough games and I doubt I'll win (what can men do against such evil) but I figured I'd try, at last, to play the Execution Horde + Dolorous Guard now that it's official. Here's the list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Lord Executioner (80)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
- Infernal Lantern (Artefact): Beacon of Nagashizzar
Knight of Shrouds (100)
Spirit Torment (120)

Battleline
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

Units
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
12 x Myrmourn Banshees (210)

Battalions
Execution Horde (100)
The Dolorous Guard (120)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 115

Not much board presence but I have speed and a bit of resilience. It can pack a punch too but against Hearthguard cheese it'll be heavily mitigated. I'll tell you how it worked tomorrow night ! I'll play the same list Sunday againt Ogors too.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Aaranis
Added spoiler

[Aaranis]

Also after reading its Warscroll again, for 220 pts a Black Coach seems to fit nicely in a NH list, I forgot it could heal d3 models back to unlife too. In a Spirit Host/Hexwraiths themed list it could help the durability considerably, paired with either Olynder or Ruler of the Spirit Hosts. It looks like a good Mortal Wounds dealer too, and have a good mobility. 220 pts can buy 10 Bladegheists or 12 Myrmourn though, so there's that. But it requires less babysitting than those two units, too.

[Undeadly]

4 hours ago, Thamalys said:

So... in light of the recent points changes (particularly Lady Olynder, but I love the Kurdoss model/mechanics so much that he is game as well) as well as the new battalions, I have had a good think about a “new” (for me)  Nighthaunt list. This discussion has been really useful to identify some novel strength we could leverage: to me, those are having a very though general (via the Dolorous Guard battalion)  and having +1 attack for free (via the Forgotten Scions battalion).

In particular, I wanted to build a list:

• That will allow  great mobility to my units. From the Underworld they Come is a start, but to me the Dreadblade Harrow + Spectral Summons combination is still too good to be overlooked. You win games with it - fact.
• Where my General would stay alive for long enough, ideally throughout the entire game. As per the point above, in my case that’d be the Dreadblade. Problem: we need at least two units of  Hexwraiths to field the Dolorous guard. Moving both of them around will cost a hefty 2 Command Points - a mighty investment. Yes, you could always field 10 and 5 Hexwraiths in two different units and use the 10-man unit only as screen / Spectral Summons target, but then you are left with 5 Hexwraiths for which you pay 140 pts. 
• A solid anvil: my Reapers always delivered, so that one’s easy.
• A decent hammer: this is where I considered the Forgotten Scions. However: the mounted Knight of Shrouds Command Ability comes for free once per battleround, which means that in order to keep the +1 attack for the entire round (it last for one combat phase only) you’ll still need a CP. At that point, a Vampire Lord gives you exactly the same (and he’s a caster as well).  Plus, the cost - same as the Dolorous Guard: the two together cost a lot. Too much.

Result: a list that does not include any battalion and that does not leverage any recent change in points. Have a look, folks:

  Hide contents

 Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Mortal Realm: Ghur

LEADERS
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Command Trait : Ruler of the Spirit Hosts - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds : Shademist
Spirit Torment (120)
Vampire Lord (140)
- Flying Horror - Allies

UNITS
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (320)

BEHEMOTHS
Mourngul (280)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Extra Command Point (50)tel
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 117
LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 140/400
     

This is a rather old-fashion list, I’d say. Can you make it better with respect to the requirement above, by taking advantage of either points changes or new battalions? Try! To me, the bodies you lose are just too many... but I might be wrong!

The problem with that list, in my opinion, is that your going to get really hungry for CP very quickly; You'll need a CP to use the Vampire Lord and the Dreadscythe, but after that, your basically forced to pick one or the other after that turn. It also means no Re-Rolls for charges, no-rerolling save's of 1, and no way to re-position in an emergency.  Also, no battalions mean no Cloak, no Midnight Tome, no Aetherquartz, no Wychlight lantern.

[Thamalys]

9 hours ago, Aaranis said:

I'd argue that the Black Coach would perform better than the Mourngul however, at now 220 pts. But I just don't trust the Mourngul so there's that.

You might be right here... I could argue that the problem with the Black Coach is that it's not a Hero (nor it's the Mourngul, but supporting the Black Coach feels a bit more complicated to me), that the -1 to hit is priceless ... but the reality of it is that I can't possibily be painting such a huge model to a decent standard without coming to hate the process

5 hours ago, Undeadly said:

your going to get really hungry for CP very quickly; You'll need a CP to use the Vampire Lord and the Dreadscythe, but after that, your basically forced to pick one or the other after that turn. It also means no Re-Rolls for charges, no-rerolling save's of 1, and no way to re-position in an emergency.  Also, no battalions mean no Cloak, no Midnight Tome, no Aetherquartz, no Wychlight lantern.

True! I start with two CPs... the Command Ability of the Vampire Lord doesn't need to be used very often, and when it kicks, it last until the next hero phase. It is very true that you always want a spare CP to make good use of the Dreadblade - but I found that a bit of planning is usually enough. I very rarely re-roll charges, in that this build is not meant to deliver via From the Underworld they Come, but the odd Inspiring Presence... in a nutshell, yes, I do agree with you - there is an element of risk there, even if one is conscious about it... I guess I'll have to try it out  

[dmorley21]

I know we typically talk lists and tactics on here, which is great as I struggle with the hobby aspect myself. But I have a hobby question. 

Has anyone tried using "flying stems" with their Nighthaunt? I saw someone do this with Hexwraiths and thought it looked cool and wonder how it would look for other units/models. 

[The_Dudemeister]

3 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Has anyone tried using "flying stems" with their Nighthaunt? I saw someone do this with Hexwraiths and thought it looked cool and wonder how it would look for other units/models. 

I've seen the Hexwraiths one and loved the idea. As a matter of fact, I'm already entertaining the idea to rebase them.

Though most other models already look very ethereal and floaty. Just now I looked through the entire NH range and didn't find a single other model that would benefit from flying stands as much as Hexwraiths... if at all. The GW designers did a pretty good job when taking units like Cairn Wraith and Mortis Engine as blueprints for our spoopy guys

[EnixLHQ]

 

On 6/6/2018 at 7:30 AM, Elmir said:

 

[Aaranis]

Well lads and lasses (if they're any) I played my two games today. I thought it would be against Fyreslayers but he played his new Slaanesh army. Second game was against Flesh-Eater Courts as expected.

And believe it or not I WON AGAINST SLAANESH ! Game was two objectives in each territory, score 1 point each round for your own, 3 points for the one in the other territory. His list was (from memory): Shalaxi, 2 Keepers of Secrets, 9 Fiends, two squads of 5 Hellstriders, and I believe just a squad of 10 Daemonettes. I won't write you the whole game but the highlights:
- My 12 Myrmourns killing the KoS Warlord with exactly 14 damage, buffed by 2 CPs from the KoS on foot;
- Lord Executioner executing Shalaxi by himself;
- My Spirit Hosts being basically on steroids and rolling 6s like no tomorrow;
- My general KoS on Steed tanking the Fiends via the Dolorous Guard;
- I killed Shalaxi and 3 KoS in the whole game because he spawned another
My opponent hasn't quite grasped how to pilot his list yet, but I can tell you the nerf to the Locus of Diversion was felt pretty hard, now that it's on 3s and not 2s for the KoS he lost to my Myrmourns because of that. Also Nighthaunt has the manoeuvrability advantage against a such low-model count army and it allowed me to grab the enemy objectives securing me the victory. I don't know what a perfectly played HoS feels like but I can tell his Fyreslayers are much worse to face than this for now.

Second game against Flesh-Eater Courts: Game was the one with three objectives in the middle, each round one of them is worth 3 points while the other are worth 1. He played King on Terrorgheist, 40 Ghouls, 10 Ghouls, 3 Horrors, 3 Flayers, 2 Varghulfs and some other Heroes on foot. 

I never faced a Terrorgheist before but knew it was just dangerous. I didn't know that the range of his Maw attacks was 3" so my Spirit Hosts screen was not enough to hide my Executioner, and with a CP to fight again he killed him with 12 MWs and also my KoS on foot who was nearby. That'll teach me to screen better against Terrorgheists. After a rampage where he killed my 12 Myrmourns, some spirit Hosts and the 10 Bladegheists sent to kill him he finally died but my forces were crippled and he had locked my line for enough time to score a good lead. It also didn't help that twice the 3 pts objective was in front of his 40 Unbreakable Ghouls. I had taken a risk in deployment by focusing on the center and right objective and letting his 40 Ghouls in peace because it's unkillable with his Battalion, but the luck wasn't on my side for the main objectives. I ended up losing by at least 7 points but we were both on our last units alive.

My experience from these games is that two Battalions aren't too much as I feared earlier, I still have like 117 wounds in my list, with 3 CPs on my turn and 3 artefacts. The Lord Executioner with Sword of Judgement is the real deal, he performed well in the first game, but my opponent watched the game and knew he had to kill him first because he could've sliced easily through his Terrorgheist and then every other Hero. I like him as a physical and psychological weapon. 

The Dolorous Guard did wonders in the first game, where it successfully protected my KoSoES from harm until their deaths, but in the second game I had to make a choice and sent them both to grab the far right objectives without the general, where their additional attack helped kill the Horrors. They're still quite disappointing damage-wise though, never send them for anything else than killing 3-4 wounds on something max or they'll just get bogged down. 

My 10 Bladegheists were the usual blenders, charging, killing something, then dying when looked upon meanly. I'll try a Shroudguard alongside the Execution Horde or Dolorous Guard once, when I'll have 10 more of them. Myrmourns are powerful when supported, as expected. I loved the 9 Spirit Hosts in these two games, they reliably grind down tough targets when at full force and help my Executioner survive of course. Can't wait to have Olynder join the fray to res them back up. 

However I don't believe I'll play my Guardian of Souls in future lists. He never passed his Spectral Lure ONCE (be it casting badly or getting dispelled) and 140 pts for +1 to Wound is quite pricy. He did dispel twice, but that's about it. I won't say his aura wasn't useful, but I'm uneasy moving him around the right places where he won't die too early, I might just add more bodies.

I'll try this list again Sunday against Ogres, I'll keep you informed as to the results.

[EnixLHQ]

10 hours ago, Aaranis said:

Well lads and lasses (if they're any) I played my two games today. I thought it would be against Fyreslayers but he played his new Slaanesh army. Second game was against Flesh-Eater Courts as expected.

And believe it or not I WON AGAINST SLAANESH !

Sounds like a good first outing with the new battalions? Do you usually struggle in these matchups?

I haven't had a chance to run these just yet, but I will after this weekend. I'm finally on holiday break, so I hope to get in a few.

First I will be running an Olynderbomb build. I don't actually expect to win, but I already know how flimsy the old version is against what I expect to face soon, namely the ever-present Stormcast or Hallowheart, that I'll get a good feel for how these new battalions buff a single-focus army.

I'll write a battle report.

After that I should be confident enough to theorycraft some lists.

[Aaranis]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Sounds like a good first outing with the new battalions? Do you usually struggle in these matchups?

I haven't had a chance to run these just yet, but I will after this weekend. I'm finally on holiday break, so I hope to get in a few.

First I will be running an Olynderbomb build. I don't actually expect to win, but I already know how flimsy the old version is against what I expect to face soon, namely the ever-present Stormcast or Hallowheart, that I'll get a good feel for how these new battalions buff a single-focus army.

I'll write a battle report.

After that I should be confident enough to theorycraft some lists.

It was my first time playing 2000 pts at AoS so I can't say that I usually struggle or not. Slaanesh I never faced before, and FeC I played them mostly with my Legion of Grief and it's always tough games, where the win ration for me is around 1w/3d. Fyreslayers are awful to face and next time he'll play them. Now he can run 3x20 HG Berzerkers and 5 Heroes at 2000 pts since the FAQ so I expect it to be a nightmare.

I'm eager to read your report on Olynder, she's next on my list of purchases !

[Aaranis]

Had my game against Ogors today, same list as my two other games. The mission was the one with the three center objectives that only Heroes could capture, and they scored better the longer they had it.

I don't know the exact army composition but his army was something like 12 Gluttons, 9 Gutbusters (or Ironguts I don't remember the name), two of the cannons on chariots, 5 Leadbelchers, a Hero with a pistol and spear, the Wizard with the cauldron, another Wizard, and one Tyrant I believe. Also the cauldron scenery. He played the Spirit Eaters or something and so had one more cast with his three Wizards.

First time facing Ogors but I'll remember it, they pack a mean punch and have strong buff magic. They can heal really well too and on a large zone with the big cauldron. I played rather unsmartly in the fact that I sent my Myrmourns to die on their own for I don't remember what reason, I think I just tried to stop him for a turn so I could charge with the bulk of my army at second round but the 12 Gluttons killed 9 of them and the rest fled to morale (because I ALWAYS roll 6s on morale) and did like 3 damage in return because they were totally unsupported. In the same phase I sent my 10 Bladegheist on the Ironguts and they rolled a 10" charge from reserve and with the rerolls from the Spirit Torment I downed them to 4 or 5 from 9. But in return they killed 9 of them and the last one fled too of course. 3D by swing really hurts when you fail a save.

I managed to bog down his Leadbelchers, two chariots and the wizard on foot with my Dolorous Guard, KoSoES and 3 Spirit Hosts, and capture objectives early on. But after that the Ironguts just punched my Spirit Torment in the face and placed their pistol boss on the objective. On the center objective he moved his Wizard Warlord and the Executioner spooked him too hard and he died, however on the next turn the Executioner settled on failing saves and died too, so it was pretty much lost from that moment, because while my KoSoES held his ground bravely (with countless Hexwraiths dead) he finished all alone and died too, and the Gluttons destroyed my Chainrasps, KoS and Guardian of Souls in the meantime so I had just 5 Spirit Hosts alive by my turn three and conceded because I couldn't score anymore and neither prevent him to score to break our 5-5.

Lesson from this match is to be LESS STUPID and don't hope to hold the line with 12 Myrmourns against Ogors, because morale will bite you in the neck. Also still don't hope for Hexwraiths to kill something, even with the charge and +1A from their boss they did like 7 wounds and then played poker on the next rounds. They're invaluable as bodyguards though, and I admit the 6s to Hit weren't rolling today. I still recommend the Battalion but advise strongly to support them with a killy unit if you want to charge with them every turn otherwise they get bogged down.

The Guardian of Souls has been a mixed bag as ever. He did unbind twice on 10+ and cast his Shademist and a Spectral Lure this game so he was competent, but for bringing back 6 Chainrasps once before he dies I believe the points are better elsewhere, and I'll do without the +1 to Wound with other ways. Now that I've bought Olynder I'll make some changes to my list before my next game, which will be in 2020 so I have some time.

Had I played a bit smarter I could've had the Ogors bogged down for a while long enough for my Lord Executioner to go executing every hero. But well the perfect game don't exist, and I was glad to have that game. 

Oh I had my FEC opponent tell me during our match that a unit couldn't contest an objective after Falling Back, is this true ? I read the Objectives section of the BRB and found nothing of the sort.

 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

Oh I had my FEC opponent tell me during our match that a unit couldn't contest an objective after Falling Back, is this true ? I read the Objectives section of the BRB and found nothing of the sort.

Short answer: It's not true.

Long answer: AoS does not have a "Falling Back" rule or function. We have "retreat". Retreating is a normal move, and as such is subject to most normal rules when moving, but has the added caveats of being unable to charge or shoot in the same turn as the retreat, and must finish outside 3" of all enemy units. That's the golden rule, so of course many units can override some part of that, like Bladegheists who can retreat and charge each turn.

I'm not aware of any battle plan that specifically says a retreating unit can't claim an objective. It's a legal move, and in fact is used quite often to steal objectives at the last second.

As always, read the battle plan carefully to make sure this remains true.

Edited December 22, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Thamalys]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

Oh I had my FEC opponent tell me during our match that a unit couldn't contest an objective after Falling Back, is this true ? I read the Objectives section of the BRB and found nothing of the sort.

Unless explicitly instructed otherwise within a specific battleplane (e.g. Places of Arcane Power), you are most definitely allow to capture objectives via a retreat move. It is a very powerful mechanics that not enough players, in my opinion, either leverage or plan against.

[Thamalys]

3 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'm not aware of any battle plan that specifically says a retreating unit can't claim an objective.

Places of Arcane Power is one example - but it’s the only one I can think about as of now, so it might be the only one... don’t have the GHB2019 at hand as we speak...

[Aaranis]

Ah well could've allowed me to grab an objective turn 1 but don't think it would've changed much on the outcome of the game. Thanks !