AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[The_Dudemeister]

Just now, Lord marcus said:

May I ask where you generated this table?

It's from the website The Honest Wargamer

[Sauriv]

It's easy to complain when our stuff is mostly unchanged but an important thing to remember, which is easy to forget, is that if they lower costs all the time that will just result in bigger and bigger battles. Keeping the balanced is important for the health of the game. 

Our stuff becomes "better" when they increase costs for other armies instead, like Skaventide for example. 

 

[Lord marcus]

23 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

It's from the website The Honest Wargamer

cheers, thank you.

[Thamalys]

31 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

underpriced for a 7 wounds character that is a lvl 2 Wizard is not what I'd call her. And we pay a hefty price for the Dolorous Guard: 120 + 140 + 140 = 400 pts for the bodyguards. 

She’s not a Monster (Look out Sir holds), her mortal wounds output is not bad at all, and Grief-Stricken is bonkers. 200 Feels right to me, but I might be biased - I love the model...

31 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Though many other armies went down too and most often considerably more, so this is a net nerf for us

This is very true. Once more, I refuse to think Slaanesh didn’t get nerfed at all. Sure, many factions have seen reductions across the board, but surely we need to fix their summoning mechanics... and that of the new Orks as well. Bah - maybe that’s going to happen, sooner or later, we haven’t seen the actual Errata yet (if any!)

31 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

The only positive thing I see right now is that Skaven got actual nerfs

Also very true. However, (1) much depends on this new warscroll for plague monks (looks the same on Azyr at the moment), their points are unchanged and that’s quite outrageous (2) stormfiends unit size is now max 6, but that’s not enough, they can still ruin anyone’s game with their insane MW shooting, that’s where we needed the points increase, 20 pts more for a few hero is not going to do much...

[The_Dudemeister]

Off-topic but I just found out that in this forum the number of reactions you can give per day are limited. So yall who posted in the last few hours feel liked. Here's a substitute reaction ❤️

[EnixLHQ]

This rollout was botched. Not that the point list isn't accurate, but it's sourced from, well, everywhere. No unified sources. It's unconfirmed data until we see the official lists. I don't think we'll be surprised about the points we have seen, but there may be more armies not seen yet. Not to mention any number of word errata that each army might get.

I'll send a secret wish to Nagash to give me the rules change I want for Christmas.

[anorek]

A nice change for Lady O - 20 by 20 pts reduction is always welcome

Again, need a bit of check regarding army.

Based on what @Nasrod and @Undeadly advised me, I made some 1500pts list (please be forgiving to my noobism):

Lady Olynder (200)

Guardian of Souls (140)

Knight of Shroud on Ethereal Steed (120) (general)

Lord Executioner (80) (potential general)

3x Spirit Hosts (360)

2x Hexwraiths (280)

1x Chainrasp (80) (points filler)

Dolorous Guard battalion (120)

Executioner Horde (100)

+can fit some spell - reaper or gravetide

 

EH play provided me a ton of fun (there was an older list for 1k play with EH and Lady O), so I was thinking to include it here. DG looks like a toon of fun to play. I would have to resurrection from GoS and general and most of my army has more than 1hp. GoS also gives wound roll for Spirits plus ress for Hexwraiths if they find themselves a bit far from general by running over to some units, until they retreat over some units again 😃

For the front line battles, EH LE will be somewhat unkillable (spirit hosts, grief buff). General and GoS should give Lady O a bit of a breathing room, hoping that opponent will try to go for those first.

My fear is that battle line is thin, might get overwhelmed. Since I don't have enough units, I would have to always engage on objectives if #units on it is in play. 10x Chainrasp guys are probably laughable to see on the field, but I intend to use them as gap filler on battle line or to stop enemy movement or to give look-out-sir for some heroes.

Also, being indecisive about artifacts, lores, and heroes (somewhat). I believe that optimal picks are Shademist and Spectral Tether/Soul Cage; I lean toward Beacon for GoS or Aetherquarts Brooch since I intend to spam those points for my units multiple times on hero phase. But, there might be other possibilities (I am still struggling with synergies), such as blade of judgement. I used this one with EH and LE and made a quick work of friend's Dread Saurian. I also read about that EH LE with Blade of endings and grief buff is crazy.

Regarding heroes - I thinking about Spirit Torment (additional heal/ress during battleshock phase) instead of KoSoES. Knight gives a nice command ability (though you can use only one ability per phase). Also, losing knight - I lose general with Rulser of Spirit host (which might still get taken by LE).

 

Any feedback is highly appreciated.  

[Aaranis]

5 hours ago, anorek said:

A nice change for Lady O - 20 by 20 pts reduction is always welcome

Again, need a bit of check regarding army.

Based on what @Nasrod and @Undeadly advised me, I made some 1500pts list (please be forgiving to my noobism):

Lady Olynder (200)

Guardian of Souls (140)

Knight of Shroud on Ethereal Steed (120) (general)

Lord Executioner (80) (potential general)

3x Spirit Hosts (360)

2x Hexwraiths (280)

1x Chainrasp (80) (points filler)

Dolorous Guard battalion (120)

Executioner Horde (100)

+can fit some spell - reaper or gravetide

Any feedback is highly appreciated.  

In my opinion, at 1500 pts there's one element or too that is too much in your list, points-wise. Olynder + 2 Battalions is a good chunk of points, and that prevents you from getting mass as you noticed. I'm not worried about the Spirit Hosts or the Hexwraiths because they'll be resilient enough with resurrecting, but these 10 Chainrasps are doing another death sentence. 

So it leaves you with a decision to make on the Battalion and your strategy. 

The Execution Horde with a steroid Executioner will be hard to kill and a credible threat for your opponent, no one wants to eat 3d6 MWs on their Monsters/Heroes. But it functions way better with a foot Knight of Shrouds because you'll need the +1 to Hit. The one on Steed doesn't actually provide you with much synergy; +1A on 3 Spirit Hosts is laughable, and the Hexwraiths are in the same case. Generally you want to use it on a numerous unit like Bladegheists or even better, Myrmourn Banshees. 

The Dolorous Guard wouldn't work easily with the Executioner just for a reason of space. You'll already have your Executioner clumped with Spirit Hosts to make his Battalion work, you'll have difficulties fitting 5 Hexwraiths within 3" of him. If you go Dolorous Guard, pick another General. We talked a lot about Olynder for this role because she's quite frail by herself being a delicate lady and all, so 20W of Hexwraiths can do her wonders. She'll be able to resurrect them easily too with her Command Ability. If you go that route the Spirit Hosts benefit from this too. 

As you said you may have trouble in some missions, that's normal, there's no list that fits all the missions perfectly. If you roll the mission where Heroes hold objectives your opponent will cry for example. However 10 Chainrasps may as well not exist, at least 20 in a single unit is already better. Think about what Battalion you wish to work around and you'll find the points.

Concerning Spells and Artefacts, if you go Lord Executioner you pretty much are obligated to use the Sword of Judgement (Hero/Monster hunter) or the Blade of Endings (I didn't know that one) for a more polyvalent Executioner. With your second artefact the Beacon of Nagashizzar is a good option, or the Pendant of Fell Winds for additional movement. If you pick the Brooch you can't use it with the Executioner though, you can only pick one Realm. Soul Cage and Shademist are great.

Hope that helped !

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

Concerning Spells and Artefacts, if you go Lord Executioner you pretty much are obligated to use the Sword of Judgement (Hero/Monster hunter) or the Blade of Endings (I didn't know that one) for a more polyvalent Executioner.

Thanks to the wonderful tool from one ouf our forum members, we can see that the Sword of Judgement is the much better choice against monsters and heroes. But Blade of Engines makes him quite viable against everything else. Here's the damage stat against different saves if the Executioner has +2 to hit (+1 from his battalion and another +1 from either KoS or Olynder's spell)

[Edit] So apparently with the Balefire Blade (+1 damage) he doesn't even need another hit-buff apart from his battalion to do almost exactly as much damage as with the Blade of Endings. So it's not worth it to take the Blade of engines because it needs an a buff on top of that and locks you to a realm that you might not prefer otherwise.

Edited December 17, 2019 by The_Dudemeister

[Garxia]

Well before the inevitable confirmation of disappointment with the FAQ points adjustement, I'll ask some input about a list for a 2k tourney next January.

It's not gonna win the event (I'm playing ghosts, with spirit hosts and no special characters) but don't want to get swept. The list:

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Shademist
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)

Units
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

Battalions
Shroudguard (110)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129
 

- Experiences with 10 chainrasp units? I'm thinking about splitting 1 of the 20 units into 2 10 chainrasps unit Or would 2 units of 20 be better? 

- What would you prefer? Geminids and a shot for a triumph (20 spare points) ? Extra command point and triumph (30 spare points? Cogs and no triumph (2000p on the nose)?

[The_Dudemeister]

Nighthaunt PDF is online. As expected, no other changes than Olynder, Kurdoss and Black Coachand it's now finally clear that Briar Queen costs 180

[Neck-Romantic]

Briar 180? Ffs she almost costs as much as Olynder now.

In all honesty Oly feels a bit undercosted now  considering just how much mayhem she can spew if she doesnt get blapped

Edited December 17, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Thamalys]

1 hour ago, Garxia said:

- Experiences with 10 chainrasp units? I'm thinking about splitting 1 of the 20 units into 2 10 chainrasps unit Or would 2 units of 20 be better? 

I have been using small units (10 models) of ChainRasps as screens, with decent results: they rarely survive a single combat phase against its a chaff vs chaff business, and there is no point in supporting them properly with that unit size. If you want them to stay,  you migt want to consider a single unit of 40: with some support they become something your opponent has to deal with. If you want to sacrifice them in order to ensure that both your blocks of Reapers and Revenants will get their charges (especially key with your costly Revenants which get +1 attack on the charge), then small units of 10 can and will work. I reckon it hugely depends on which units (if any) you are planning to bring up onto the table via From the Underworld they Come: if the plan is to deep stricke your Revenants and the like, I'd probably go for a big blob of 40. If you are going to start with mostly evertyhing on the table, screening is a necessity instead.

1 hour ago, Garxia said:

- What would you prefer? Geminids and a shot for a triumph (20 spare points) ? Extra command point and triumph (30 spare points? Cogs and no triumph (2000p on the nose)?

The Cogs with not bonuses to cast are too much of a gamble, and investing in Reikenor or at the very least the Guardian of Soul relic (+1 to cast) is a big investment if your list is not built to leverage massively From the Underworld they Come. If you were to drop the Geminidis as well as 10 Rasps, you could get a second Guardian of Souls: I feel like your Rasps are presently completely unsupported... the Knight fo Shroud and the Spirit Torment will go with the Revenants, the Dreadblade with the Spirit Hosts, the Guardian of Sould with the Reapers... what about your 30/40 Rasps? They need their Deathless Minions at the very least. And/or, consider running the chainguard?

Last thing: the Midnight Tome is real nice on the Dreadblade, but against a shooty army (of which we have quite a few these days, especially after the Cities of Sigmar book)  that guy is gone real fast. The Gryph-feather Charm is my goto artefact for him, as coupled with Look out Sir gives you a minus 2 to be shot at.

[anorek]

3 hours ago, Aaranis said:

The Dolorous Guard wouldn't work easily with the Executioner just for a reason of space. You'll already have your Executioner clumped with Spirit Hosts to make his Battalion work, you'll have difficulties fitting 5 Hexwraiths within 3" of him. If you go Dolorous Guard, pick another General. We talked a lot about Olynder for this role because she's quite frail by herself being a delicate lady and all, so 20W of Hexwraiths can do her wonders. She'll be able to resurrect them easily too with her Command Ability. If you go that route the Spirit Hosts benefit from this too. 

As you said you may have trouble in some missions, that's normal, there's no list that fits all the missions perfectly. If you roll the mission where Heroes hold objectives your opponent will cry for example. However 10 Chainrasps may as well not exist, at least 20 in a single unit is already better. Think about what Battalion you wish to work around and you'll find the points.

Concerning Spells and Artefacts, if you go Lord Executioner you pretty much are obligated to use the Sword of Judgement (Hero/Monster hunter) or the Blade of Endings (I didn't know that one) for a more polyvalent Executioner. With your second artefact the Beacon of Nagashizzar is a good option, or the Pendant of Fell Winds for additional movement. If you pick the Brooch you can't use it with the Executioner though, you can only pick one Realm. Soul Cage and Shademist are great.

Hope that helped !

It certainly helped! I felt the same about KoS-with-horse that he is an odd one - that's why I was considering Spirit Torment. Rerolling hits of 1 is good.

The problem with meat on the field might be solved if I lose Knight. That's 120pts plus I can sacrifice filler spell to reach 140pts. That would give me another chainrasp squad and glaivewraiths.

@The_Dudemeister thank you, didn't know about this tool.

There's a quote on pg54:

Now I know many of you don’t care much about the Lord Executioner and the Executioner Horde battalion and since I don’t care much for tournements I might be all noob about this but have any of you considered arming the Lord Executioner with the Blade of Endings? Combined with the EH battalion that turns the LE into a mean fella with 3 attacks at+2 dam for each 5+ to hit or 6 to wound? Combine that with Lady Olynder’s spell and its 4+ to hit.

Not sure about the math here but the Blade of Endings alone gives him a max damage output of 24! At rend -2.

I am not good with this math as well, but it looked that it could be used on everything unlike SoJ on heroes/monsters.

Edited December 17, 2019 by anorek

[Thamalys]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Briar 180? Ffs she almost costs as much as Olynder now.

In all honesty Oly feels a bit undercosted now  considering just how much mayhem she can spew if she doesnt get blapped

I agree - and that's the one bit of good news we have to cling/capitalise on. I am a tad bit disappointed, I won't lie... especially as nothing much changed for Legion of Nagash as well (Neferata going down 40 points is my only consolation).

On a related note, and despite sounding a bit salty at this point: some, including myself, have noticed a potential nerf for Skaven, given the points increase of severa of their heroes... and then I had a look at the plague monks new warscroll. If anything, it's actually filthier. Top that up with this new bit in their Designers' commentary:

Quote

Q: If I cast both Death Frenzy and Dreaded Death Frenzy on the same unit, can the models pile in and attack twice when slain?A: Yes.

and I believe am I very much ready for an early pint...

[Neck-Romantic]

Rediculous

Might as well be Battle Tome: Plague Monks at this point D :

Edited December 17, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Lebenski]

I really wish that we could have both the teleporting Dreadblade with Ruler of the Spirit Hots who can pull units AND Lady Olynder as your General who could be protected by the Dolorus Guard.  As it stands, I feel like we have to choose between two of our best options and for an underperforming army it would be nice to have access to both.

[Neck-Romantic]

Agreed

I am still excited for DG and Scions though

Edited December 17, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[dmorley21]

Yeah... I wish DG was 2-4 Hexwraiths and one of ant hero and they guarded that hero. Would be so much more worth it. 

As is, I used that Mathhammer tool that got posted and even with the additional attack from the battalion the output of Hexwraiths is so bad. DG is definitely far from an auto include. 

[Aaranis]

I don't know, at least we have the freedom to chose who is protected with Dolorous Guard, I don't want NH to become an army or unkillable stuff, leave that to broken Battletomes. We're getting closer to perfection concerning intra-codex balance I think, something needs to be done about Stalkers and a few Battalions, as well as a remake of Warlord traits and some Artefacts and we'll be good. That other Battletomes are more powerful is not a problem that Nighthaunt needs to fix, because it isn't Nighthaunt's problem, it's AoS'. The level of power of the book is just right; it needs to be played right and it will deliver a beautiful game. I don't want the game to degenerate to the lethal mess that is 40k where you can pretty much shake hands if you don't have first turn against a gunline.

[EnixLHQ]

At least we didn't draw Nagash's ire... 💀👻

We need to look at December as a whole. In total we got:

• The Emerald Host - 80 point super-battalion (one of two) - requiring only Dolorous Guard and Forgotten Scions to field and giving a permanent -1 save to a single enemy hero
• The Forgotten Scions - 140 battalion - Making KoSoES hit a little harder and able to spend his CA for free once a turn
• The Dolorous Guard - 120 battalion - Making your general able to redirect wounds to a retinue of Hexwraiths, and gives those Hexraiths a charge buff
• Kurdos - now 180 points
• Olynder - now 200 points
• Black Coach - now 220 points

This brings us up to 2 super battalions, 9 regular battalions, and points cost more in line with our unit's power. We're arguably one of the most customizable armies around.

And, per Games Workshop themselves:

Quote

 

Here’s what game designers Jervis Johnson and Louis Aguilar have to say about it all.

Jervis and Louis: This year’s Christmas update aims to address some of the questions that we have gathered since the release of the General’s Handbook 2019. Among the updated designer’s commentaries and errata files, you will find changes to Pitched Battle Profiles, warscrolls and allegiance abilities.

All of these changes have been designed to bring all of the armies in Warhammer Age of Sigmar, across the system, in line with each other. What this means, in effect, is a little bop on the nose for some overachievers but, more plentifully, lots of points drops and improvements for almost all factions in Warhammer Age of Sigmar!

 

This tells me that we're competitive.

I have always stood by my assessment that Nighthaunt is an advanced tactical army. We don't have any single base configuration that over-performs, and we don't have any auto-win options. This means we need to know our enemy when making our lists, and if we can tailor them properly and execute them smartly, we'll edge on winning.

This doesn't address the "tournament problem", at least not that I can see. The "tournament problem" being that the armies considered "competitive" can bring their single, predetermined list to a tournament and shut down any number of opponents on their way to the top. This is where LoG shines, because thanks to gravesites any mistakes made in the list or during the game can be fixed for a command point when a unit dies, and CP generation is a thing (I've generated 9 points once), so the optimal solution is often just waves of suicidal units. Nighthaunt has yet to come up with a solid, uncounterable, tournament template that can take on all the top armies without modification. This, and wholly this, is our weakness. This was what I was hoping they'd address, because there are ways to do that.

I'm feeling right down the middle. We were clearly buffed, but was it enough? We're not OP, but are we stable and tournament-ready?

I'll need a few games before I know for myself. I'll be making blog entries. I hope everyone here reports back on their experiences with these changes, too.

Oh, they also said this:

Quote

The most important thing to remember is that we are always interested in your feedback, and greatly encourage you to email in your questions, findings or concerns to aosfaq@gwplc.com. We read every email we receive, and while we cannot reply to these messages, we endeavour to address any problematic subjects as soon as possible.

I'll be writing them about the "tournament problem".

Edited December 17, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Neck-Romantic]

Nighthaunt needs "chapter" bonuses.

Small army-wide tweaks like nearly every single new book (and all of 40k) has now.

[The_Dudemeister]

2 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

As is, I used that Mathhammer tool that got posted and even with the additional attack from the battalion the output of Hexwraiths is so bad. DG is definitely far from an auto include. 

Just tried it out and now I think Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths can be used offensively too 😲

Here we see 420 points worth of Reapers (30), Hexwraiths (15) and Reapers when they have to deal with monsters or elite units where they don't get the rerolls. Combined with extra movement and the mortal wound gimmick when flying over a unit, they're surprisingly good.

Someone try Olynder, Dolorous Guard and 60 Hexwraiths. Exactly 2000 points 😂

Edited December 17, 2019 by The_Dudemeister

[EnixLHQ]

57 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Just tried it out and now I think Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths can be used offensively too 😲

Here we see 420 points worth of Reapers (30), Hexwraiths (15) and Reapers when they have to deal with monsters or elite units where they don't get the rerolls. Combined with extra movement and the mortal wound gimmick when flying over a unit, they're surprisingly good.

Someone try Olynder, Dolorous Guard and 60 Hexwraiths. Exactly 2000 points 😂

 

Assuming perfect execution, right? The Hexwraiths can't run and charge, or retreat and charge. Does this figure that in?

[relic456]

Hmm, kind of a silly idea but I wonder if it would work out.

Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spectral Tether
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Reikenor the Grimhailer (170)  --- A flavor of Knight of Shrouds is probably better, I just love this guy
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
10 x Hexwraiths (280)
10 x Hexwraiths (280)
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
The Dolorous Guard (120)
Extra Command Point (50)
Penumbral Engine (100)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 99

A Dolorous Guard Lady Olynder deathstar build. Basically bunch everything up together and try and move from objective to objective as fast as possible. Pendant of the Fell Wind makes everything super fast. A unit of Hexwraiths can maybe deepstrike or threaten back objectives.  Lady O can bounce wounds to her Hexwraiths, and then use her CP to fill them back up along with everything else while hoping to squeeze out some extra CPs through the Aethquartz Brooch and Penumbral engine to chain it over and over.

Feels kind of like a poor man's Legion of Grief but Lady Olynder would theoretically be pretty resilient in a build like this. I just whipped it up in the back of my head so it probably could look a lot better, but here's to getting the ball rolling.