AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Aaranis]

You're right about the Sword of Judgement, I kinda forgot about including the other components for the list to work, namely a KoS and Olynder. But giving him a Balefire Blade or such would make him really dangerous, and hard to kill with the Dolorous Guard. With support from a KoS the whole list gets better in 12" bubble of him. That might be hard to pull off though, but if we keep the Cogs and the Pendant he still moves 11".

I also agree about the second DH, but as an artifact carrier he's pretty dope with the ability to teleport to seize an objective or give the artifact's bonus to another unit in a hurry.

[Thamalys]

4 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

giving him a Balefire Blade or such would make him really dangerous, and hard to kill with the Dolorous Guard

Somehow dangerous, I'd say - still -1 Rend only, which is not much against serious opponents. High damage is great - but if can't get in... plus, if he's to be your General, you lose the DH+Spectral Summons combo, which I believe is fair to say is one of the most effective tricks we can leverage.

 

7 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

With support from a KoS the whole list gets better in 12" bubble of him.

That is the actual problem though, right? To take advantage of the Dolorous Guard, you need a unit of Hexwraiths 3" away from your Kos. To leverage Forgotten Scions, you need your punchy unit to be - alas! - wholly within 12" of him. Now you have two options: (1.) desperately trying to juggle the Hexwraiths and said punchy unit, but that is bound to be real tricky, especially on the charge (2.) accept that your Hexwraiths are your punchy unit: the two battalions together give them +2 attacks each (knights and mounts!) for free, which sound phenomenal on paper, and yet we are still hitting/wounding on 4+/5+ with our knights/mounts, so that's close to useless. 

One option would be to go all in on the Hexwraiths: 2 units of 20 for a massive war of attrition with an impossibly tanky general at the front. To me, this sounds like a ton of effort for not-so-great a result, though...

Uhm... 2 DHs, one of which is your General, with RotSHs. One mounted KoS with a Balefire blade. 20 Hexwraiths sitting right behind them. 30 Reapers right in front of them, benefitting from the +1 attack for free. Throw in a Vampire Lord for another +1 attack, and 1 GoS... attrition for real... bah, just rumbling. I'll have a proper think later on.

Exciting times ahead!

 

 

[dmorley21]

Yeesh. These battalions are a letdown. Nothing close to game changing and they're very much on par with our other battalions - interesting, useful, but maybe not worth the cost. 

One good thing is the unit tax. There's none for the Hex battalion and only a second Dreadblade for the Scions one. Makes me wish I had bought a box of Dreadblades instead of just one. 

I'm still not sold on Hexwraiths. If they had the Reaper scythes, it would really make them a strong unit. But the 4's to hit just isn't that reliable IMO. Also, if your general is a DH, chances are it won't always be able to take advantage of the bouncing wounds. Its purpose is to teleport around the board... not to run with a bodyguard. 

[Neck-Romantic]

I for one LOVE these! 

One of my earliest suggestions was a way to pull wounds off of a KoS onto the DH's and make a mounted NH force, adding +2 attacks to Hexs isnt bad at all (yes its wounds to hexes but still)

2 unit of Hexes, 1 DH and the KoseS ona flank; your anvil and other DH on the other flank/center

 

Hexes charge; get their +2, do what they can. Next round they retreat thru the enemy; dropping their movment MWs, and charge into something important. KoSeS and second rank kf Hexes mop up initial charge target

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Neck-Romantic]

Give a Torment the +3 move pendant to keep up; let the hexes reroll 1's and heal as they go

[Aaranis]

25 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

I for one LOVE these! 

One of my earliest suggestions was a way to pull wounds off of a KoS onto the DH's and make a mounted NH force, adding +2 attacks to Hexs isnt bad at all (yes its wounds to hexes but still)

2 unit of Hexes, 1 DH and the KoseS ona flank; your anvil and other DH on the other flank/center

 

Hexes charge; get their +2, do what they can. Next round they retreat thru the enemy; dropping their movment MWs, and charge into something important. KoSeS and second rank kf Hexes mop up initial charge target

But there's no way to charge and retreat with Hexwraiths though, which is their problem. I'm sometimes tempted to retreat across an enemy unit but that's one round where they don't do anything else, except contesting an objective or something.

[The_Dudemeister]

Even in its very cheapest form the Dolorous Guard costs 400 points for 20 wounds worth of models. Models that you don't even want in combat where they die because the reason to take them would be as a shield for your general. So the +1 attack is a whole lot of nothing... not that it would've been enough to make Hexwraiths good in combat anyway. 15 Hexwraiths deal 13 wounds (including MW) on a 5+save unit. They cost 420 points just like 30 Reapers who'd deal 25 wounds. On the one charge-turn you get at best, the buffed Hexwraiths would deal 20 wounds. So situational and still much worse

But yeah, I'm not paying such a huge tax to protect my general. I'd rather have a full compliment of 30 Reapers for that points investment or almost 60 Chainrasps.

What a cruel joke. Remember that armies don't just get regular updates in White Dwarf. This was it. Our one chance to be buffed.

PS: Nothing I wrote matters if it can be taken for Legion of Grief. Just as much as NH are desperate for anything that makes us more competitive, LoG is desperate for another battalion. Gimme that juicy extra artefact, I'd pay anything!

Edited December 9, 2019 by The_Dudemeister

[The_Dudemeister]

On 12/7/2019 at 4:05 AM, The_Dudemeister said:

But nay, these battalions will have great powercreep and singlehandedly make Nighthaunt competitive again. The winds of Shyish are whispering it in my ear. Not kidding, I'm actually full of hope. 

Geez, I was so young back then... seeing the world only as it should be, not as it is. It was a brighter, more hopeful time back then. All these long 2 days ago. 😂

[Neck-Romantic]

Entire mounted list

10 Hex

10 Hex 

5 Hex 

5 Hex

Black coach

DH (black tome - shademist), DH (General-ROTSH, helm of watcher) KosEs (sword of judement or offensive weapon relic) Reikonor (soul cage) +Emerald lifeswarm, STorment

Leverages Dolorous Guard, spectral summons, has reroll 1s to wound, -1 to wound friendlies, RotSH + Coach + Lifeswarm + Torment heals, all hexes and coach are able to retreat to reposition while dishing out mortals.

Very tiny footprint but quite durable, could run the two 5 man blocks as another 10.

Just spitballing

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[dmorley21]

Okay, so I did some number crunching. At their minimum sizes, here's some number crunching on battalions:

Shroudguard: 410/460 pts, 16/17 wounds, 25.7/27 pts per wound, 3 units, 0 battleline, 1 hero

Deathriders: 760 pts, 37 wounds, 20.5 pts per wound, 4 units, 2 battleline, 1 hero

The Condemned: 660 pts, 49 wounds, 13.5 pts per wound, 4 units, 2 battleline, 1 hero

Chainguard: 580 pts, 45 wounds, 12.9 pts per wound, 3 units, 2 battleline, 1 hero

Execution Horde: 540 pts, 32 wounds, 16.9 pts per wound, 4 units, 3 battleline, 1 hero

Death Stalkers: 620 pts, 32 wounds, 19.4 pts per wound, 5 units, 2 battleline, 1 hero

Shrieker Host: 520 pts, 22 wounds, 23.7 pts per wound, 5 units, no battleline, 1 hero

The Forgotten Scions: 440 pts, 16 wounds, 27.5 pts per wound, 3 units, 0 battleline, 3 heroes

The Dolorous Guard: 400 pts, 20 wounds, 20 pts per wound, 2 units, 2 battleline

Other thoughts:

Execution Horde and Dolorous Guard allow you to take 3 battleline. If you do so with DG, it drops the cost to 16 pts per wound and ups it to 480 pts. This might be useful for people who want low drops or want to focus on non-battleline units... though battleline units for NH are actually a strength IMO. 

I think The Forgotten Scions is interesting as giving Reapers, Bladegheists, or Myrmourns an extra attack without spending a command point is quite nice. Dreadblades make great generals but they are also great for carrying Pendant of the Fell Wind, Midnight Tome, or Aetherquartz Brooch. If I took it I'd probably make one the general with the Brooch and give the other one Pendant of the Fell Wind. 

Scions is also the only battalion that allows you to take two different types of heroes. 

The best use for either of the new battalions IMO is to run a low drop, 2 battalion list. They're both quite useful for that as they have a cheap minimum cost overall and help you get either heroes or battleline. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by dmorley21
Messed Up a Calculation

[Neck-Romantic]

It might also not NECCEASRILY sound thematic; but DG allows Olynder to soak damage and ressurect properly as well. As you can CHOOSE to soak the wounds to DG you can let her heal herself and soak at the same time

Consider it for an aggressive Reik or Kurdoss too.

Once you look at it in the vein of keeping the General alive as one of NH's biggest faults; DG is pretty huge

(That having been said I would have preferred it being Hosts over Hexes myself)

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[The_Dudemeister]

Oh my god, you're right. I need to try this!

Lady O's damage output and utility as level 2 wizard with one of the best inherent spells in the game is up there with far more expensive heroes. But I totally forgot about her because she needs to be very close to the enemy for every single thing she does and will be removed in a single turn virtually everytime. In a competitive setting I consider her unplayable.

Having her reliably on the board though for several rounds can actually have a great impact. DG and Execution Horde to have all those multi-wound units that love her command ability is definitely worth a try.

[Neck-Romantic]

The more I think about it the more Hexes actuslly work as her bodygusrd as well. If you get screened or end up against a suboptimal matchup, neither Hexes NOR Oly *have* to be in combat to cause damage.

Your hexes just retreat through, causing MW's, Oly runs to keep in formation and spits MW's in every direction til she gets where she wants to be

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Neck-Romantic]

Look at Scions in a Kurdoss list.

Take 2 KosES (or mounted and foot) bladegheists and myrmourns, Kurdoss, Aetherquartz.

Boosting myrmourns and bladegheists reliably every turn.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Aaranis]

Lots of great ideas there guys, it warms my cold heart to see such enthusiasm. Also thought of the body guards for a named character, Olynder or Kurdoss. Olynder is more synergistic as a general because Kurdoss doesn't contribute a lot beyond stealing CPs (which is nice) and beating people. Looks like that unit of Hexwraiths in the Battleforce will be useful... But I'll assemble them as Black Knights nonetheless, painted ethereal. I hate these fiddly scythes !

[EnixLHQ]

Not my images, but they are way more readable than the previous ones. Enjoy 😏

[shinros]

Thanks for the images! Going to need some hexwraiths.

[EnixLHQ]

Just gonna throw this out there to kind of steer the conversation...

Everyone's favorite underdog Spirit Hosts: 3-12 unit size, 9-36 wounds per unit, 6 attacks each (18-72 total), 5+/4+/0/1 - MWs on nat 6 hit roll - 120-480 points

Everyone's favorite unit to bully Hexwraiths: 5-20 unit size, 10-40 wounds per unit, 2/2 attacks each (10/10-40/40 total), 4+/3+/-1/1(4+/5+/0/1) - MWs on nat 6 hit roll for half those attacks AND MWs on a 5+ per model that passes over an enemy unit - 140-560 points

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Remember Olynderbomb?

New Olynderbomb: Olynder (general) - give her Lifestealer or Reaping Scythe (220), 2 through 4 units of 5 Hexwraiths (140 each), DG battalion cost 120 = total 620-900.

620 points, or 900 if you're nasty and want to max it out, single drop Olynderbomb to devastate the enemy back line via From the Underworlds. Hexwraiths now swing for 3/3 (6 like a Spirit Host...just half the MW potential) attacks on a charge, but you don't charge with everything and never if a unit ends up outside 12" of Oly. That's not their role. They follow her, passing over enemy units and charging into them from behind in order to keep near the 3" they need to absorb her wounds. Her command ability will restore 1 model per unit within 12" per CP.

Oly's unique spell, Grief-stricken, gives an enemy unit -1 to hit from any weapon source. But, it also gives any friendly unit that targets them +1 from melee weapons. Now your Hexwraiths now hit on 3+ and so do their mounts (mounts count as melee). Oly herself will hit on 2+. Her handmaidens on a 3+ (again, mount). If empowered by Reaping Scythe she's rerolling all misses and missed wounds.

Not to mention starting with 1 more CP and 1 more artifact you put somewhere else. Yes, you lose other shenanigans making her your general, but you put a threat unit on the table that demands to be dealt with. You lose some durability on other units, but they claim objectives while Oly and her calvary put so much pressure on your opponent that they will NEED to deal with her, and likely with too many resources to take those objectives from you.

Remember, play the objectives. Leave total annihilation tactics to FEC or whatever.

Edited December 9, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Neck-Romantic]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Maybe a STorment with the pendant for spot heals and rerolling 1's tagging along

[EnixLHQ]

Here is a very tentative, very speculative sample list at 1500 points, the usual points I play in my local meta.

Consider this me spitballing and talking through an idea out loud.

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spectral Tether
- Infernal Lantern (Artefact): Wychlight Lantern
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (220)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Reaping Scythe
Knight of Shrouds (100)
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Cairn Wraith (60)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch

Battleline
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)

Units
8 x Myrmourn Banshees (140)

Battalions
Dolorous Guard (120)

Chainguard (120)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 89

 

And how'd I personally use this list

Spoiler

 

Deployment:

The entire Dolorous Guard (Olynder and both units of Hexwraiths) is placed into the Undworlds. It is one drop thanks to the battalion. (3 in UW)

The Myrmourn Banshees go into the Underworlds. (4 in UW)

The Chainguard deploys as one drop on the table, thanks to the battalion. (3 on table)

KoS and Cairn Wraith deploy on the table. (4 in UW/5 on table)

Strategy:

Use the Chainguard and KoS with Pendant of the Fel Wind to get onto objectives quickly. You can deploy Chainguard as one drop, but they don't have to deploy near each other. Deploy half your 'rasps near one objective and the other near another. Put the KoS near the one that has to move further, preferably not the one with the GoS so that both can benefit from our Death saves.

Put the Cairn Wraith anywhere you want, just out of the way. He's your Brooch carrier and he can sing his sad lonely song all by himself if that happens to be the safest place for him. He does not hunger for combat. Maybe an objective, but only if absolutely required. I'd keep him with the KoS because you'll likely teleport the KoS later and those 'rasps will still need a Death save.

As soon as you know where your enemy spell casters are going to be, drop your Banshees within unbind range. If you can stand to wait a round, depending on your opponent, then do so. Give them time to move units around to open up potential deepstrike pockets. They'll be eyeing your pack of Underworld units very warily and will likely be too defensive to make great moves.

THEN, and ONLY THEN drop the Olynderbomb, deploying the entirety of the Dolorous Guard along their backline as close as you can to their most needed units. You do this last, preferably after dropping your banshees, so that your opponent's wide eyes are drawn to Our Lady instead of the unbinding banshees. Enjoy your shooting phase.

Gameplay:

From here it's simple. Use a little psychology. Every turn, do your mundane stuff first. Move the Chainrasps onto objectives, have the KoS assist in that movement, cast your protection or healing spells with GoS, you know, the boring stuff.

Then move the Olynderbomb. Remember that you don't need to be charging from 9" out. You can, but Oly can nuke for some wounds at this distance and should be. Her first turn on the table will be a shooting phase with no backup spells. You can try charging, but unless all 3 units make the charge don't follow through. If one Hexwraith unit nats a 10, go ahead, otherwise wait.

On your first Hero phase with Oly out, she casts her Grief-stricken (or at least tries to) and either Lifestealer or Reaping Scythe. Now you move into a safer charging range. If you are close enough, run the Hexs over the enemy unit, and then charge back into them from the side and behind, while Oly charges into them from the front.

Again, if you save the DG's movements for last each turn, then you stand a really good chance at hiding your 'rasps movements through good ol' "out of sight, out of mind" psychology when compared to the "OH SHHHHHHHHIIIII" mindset they'll likely be in right about now.

Now, if it turns out your DGs need a little more help, like let's say Grief-stricken has gone a turn or two and not been successfully cast, or you know you could end your opponent right now if you deal enough damage, then spend a CP to teleport your KoS to you, so that he can invest a CP into +hit for your DG. You could also do this if the two big threats on the table are further apart and you need the extra push to get there.

And, of course, whenever a Hex goes down, CP them back up. 1 is good for 1 model in both units, and there is no cap. Down 3 on one and 2 on the other, maybe spend 2 CP this turn and get 4 total back. With your Cairn Wraith playing poker with your 'raps and hopefully forgotten, or too expensive to pursue for your opponent, you will enjoy a nice 5+ chance at getting those CPs back.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by EnixLHQ
formatting

[Aaranis]

Sounds like you rely a lot on your opponent not paying attention 😛 I'm mitigated. I don't see much damage iin your list, I just wonder how you'll down the opponent's heavy hitters. If he's clever enough he'll go through one Hexwraith unit at a time to prevent resurrections. Your board control looks a bit lacking with just the Chainrasps, in my experience they die very quickly, especially to Battleshock. The terms on the mission might force you to split your DG to contest some objectives too, so you'd have to chose between protecting Olynder and scoring points. 

Of course I don't know your meta and my worries may be unfounded but this is my first impressions. 

[EnixLHQ]

50 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

Sounds like you rely a lot on your opponent not paying attention 😛 I'm mitigated. I don't see much damage iin your list, I just wonder how you'll down the opponent's heavy hitters. If he's clever enough he'll go through one Hexwraith unit at a time to prevent resurrections. Your board control looks a bit lacking with just the Chainrasps, in my experience they die very quickly, especially to Battleshock. The terms on the mission might force you to split your DG to contest some objectives too, so you'd have to chose between protecting Olynder and scoring points. 

Of course I don't know your meta and my worries may be unfounded but this is my first impressions. 

Oh, absolutely not a great list! Just a quick put-together to see how the points look.

For example, you could drop the Banshees and take another unit of Hexwraiths for the same cost and gain more wounds for your Oly and more objective-capture options, but less utility and splash damage on the table. Or switch the Chainguard out for the Condemned, drop the Cairn Wraith and KoS, add 10 Chainraps to one of the units. More damage for the 'rasps, but less healing and some artifact options left behind.  /shrug Or, ditch the other battalion altogether and just fill the extra points with chaff units like as many Chainrasps and Dreadscythes and/or Bladegheists you can with a hero or two.

Remember that you only lose an objective if an enemy can claim it, so if you're preventing your opponent from coming within range you can leave your objectives and still count them. Except for that one battleplan that requires the heroes within 3"...

Dunno! The Dolorous Guard make the Hexwraiths into something useful and now our best General retinue, but the point cost means you have to make those points work. If you're just fencing off a Dreadblade with them I'd argue that's a waste. Your General needs to be an extremely useful one for that kind of cost. You're spending at minimum 400 points before the General is even selected.

Edited December 9, 2019 by EnixLHQ

[Aaranis]

Wow you just learned me something with the objectives. I never read the rule about objectives honestly, I played like in 40k when it's yours as long as you have more models in range. And I believe NO ONE in my shop knows that rule neither. I feel a bit stupid hehe.

Then yes it opens up possibilities of just wrapping around the enemy from everywhere, retreating with the Hexwraiths just to block their path from the other side if they want to retreat. And with the durability of the Hexwraiths + Olynder it may be  a really viable strategy. 

Have you considered Spirit Hosts in such a list ? Their footprint is small so are more manoeuverable while greatly benefitting from Olynder's CA. Coincidentally it works wonders with the Emperor Executioner as there's a KoS, SHs and Olynder for the +1/2/3 to Hit he requires. I'll have to write something along these lines for 2000 pts, a Dolorous Guard/Execution Horde list, drowning the opponent in MWs.

On a somewhtat related note, have any of you played against Ossiarch Bonereapers ? I've read many times that MWs is their weakness, and as their superior rend is useless against us we may have the advantage in board control with our speed and Fly.

I knew from the start Nighthaunt were more of a board control than slayer type of army, but I always found it difficult to survive blender lists like Fyreslayers Hearthguards. With these new tools it may become really feasible.

I'M FULL OF HOPE BOYS

[Sauriv]

As previously discussed, here is my new Judgemental Executioner v.2.0!!

This list keeps the fun stuff with hiding LE, 3xSH, KoS and Lady O! (6 unit hiding and 6 units on the table) 

The execution-squad will hide as usual until a potential weakspot.

GoS has the pendant to buff hexwraiths to move far up the board with a potential charge due to Cogs. If the charge isn't possible/unreliable, i will then use the smaller block of Hexwraiths to screen the big unit. And next to the big unit will Olynder appear. This way Olynder gets far up the board for pressure and is still relatively safe/tanky due to hexwraiths. 

If im going second I will play safe and hide 10 hexwraiths instead of Olynder to have another threat hidden. Keep her safe with 5 hexwraiths close by and screen with chainrasps. 

Starting with 3 cp this list should be able to ether return alot of models from Olynder or buff the ****** out of LE. 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (220)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Lifestealer
Lord Executioner (80)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Reikenor the Grimhailer (170)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Knight of Shrouds (100)
- Artefact : Dimensional Blade
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spirit Drain
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)
3 x Spirit Hosts (120)
10 x Hexwraiths (280)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
The Dolorous Guard (120)
Execution Horde (100)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106

[shinros]

So starting out with nighthaunt, as you lot know. Threw together a basic list, I know reaper boys are the better option but the Bladeghiest look too pretty to me. Planning to build into the chainguard battalion, upping my spirit host to 9 and getting 10-15 bladeghiest.  I also have a question, should I throw a beacon onto the Guardian of souls, or should I drop the tome for the Knight of shrouds and give the Guardian the beacon for now?   

Total Points: 950

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140) - Lore of the Underworlds : Spectral Tether

Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120) - General - Command Trait : Ruler of the Spirit Hosts - Artefact : Midnight Tome - Reaping Scythe

Lord Executioner (80)

Spirit Torment (120)

UNITS

20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

6 x Spirit Hosts (240)

5 x Bladegheist Revenants (90)