AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Sauriv]

Yeah the defensive bonus you get with the battalion and using LE shouldn't be overlooked. If he doesn't kill the thing he wants to kill than the - 2 to hit really helps. One time i used him to stop Gotrek from advancing and the LE managed to stall him for 2 rounds. 

To further increase his defense i tried including a mourngul for an additional - 1 to hit; That game though, was the mourngul needed elsewhere so he didn't support LE (still won, yay). 

And yes, the 5+ FNP against mw works in addition to the deathless spirits. 

[Aaranis]

Funny how a 80 pts Executioner can be a real challenge to Nagash in CC. Well it's more like 860 pts and 2 CP but it's a fair fight anyhow

[Sauriv]

1 minute ago, States said:

How do we deal with gotrek?

In a way you don't, i stalled him with debuffs but he is really hard to kill so the best way i found is to just ignore him and keep your distance. 

One way is to trap him between the three shackles from the endless spell making him unable to move. But just making him run around things is useful as well. 

But if you want to actually kill him i guess as much 1dmg attacks as possible with some rend preferably on your initiative, so like buffed chainrasps. But he will probably kill alot of your stuff in return. 

[The_Dudemeister]

23 minutes ago, States said:

How do we deal with gotrek?

In the manliest way imaginable. We throw trash at him.

With 4" movement he's super slow. And by himself he doesn't have any movement shennanigans like deepstriking, running and charging, teleportation etc.

So engage him in combat with trash like 4 Glaivewraiths. That stops him right there. After killing stuff  he can fight again if he's within 3" of something else after that. So have yet another 4 Glaivewraith Stalkers waiting for him 3" away but in the other direction from your army.

That gives him the sucky choice of either going 3" back to kill them (a huge chunk of his movement) and be further away from your juicy targets. Or not fight twice and then have the second Glaivewraiths engage him next turn to stop him yet again.

Remember that he's 520 points. Him slipping on 60 point trash like a cartoon character, leaves you with an insane points advantage on the rest of the board. Made even worse if your opponent uses another unit to help him out with his literal Stalker problem.

Tl;dr Just paint your Glaivewraiths yellow with dark spots so they look like banana peels and play some slapstick music

[States]

Got a game against some gristlegore flesh eaters, those 3 dragons or whatever. How should one deal with flesh eaters?

[lare2]

1 hour ago, States said:

How do we deal with gotrek?

Ignore him? He's crazy slow and we're crazy quick. 

Haven't fought him yet mind...

[Thamalys]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:08 PM, States said:

How do we deal with gotrek?

By deploying the impossibly cunning strategem that many other factions have to resort to in order to deal with this particularly feisty Son of Grimnir:

"Avoid at all Costs"

He has a 4" move - that's the only thing we can hope to leverage, and even then I am sure that some crafty Order player can cast something / take advantage of some ability to project him right in front of our general (whom is positively going to be utterly dead at the end of said turn).

As NH we have some pretty great mobility (and thus some slim chances to avoid this murderball), but we miss the one thing that can keep him at bay, i.e. feeding him one unit of (say) direwolves per turn (bearing in mind that if you happen to have something else within 3" of said direwolves... well.)

I believe is fair to say the thing is non-killable by conventional means. You need something with a huge number of attacks (preferably 1 damage each, as >1 gets down the drain anyway...) / model, which is easier said that found - he's a tiny model, so there are only so many models we can pile in.

30 reapers spending 3 CPs for +2 attacks each (Vampire Lord and mounted KoS) and +1 to hit (KoS on foot) and a GoS nearby may have a chance? Fighting in two ranks, 10 in would mean 40 attacks, hitting on 3+ wounding on 2-... still not enough, probably. Skaven players shoud be able to do it with a unit of 40 (Death Frienzed and buffed) plague monks, I guess...

But our Reapers don't come back, so it's just not worth it. LoN... maybe I'd try. Or not. No, probably not - just run away from him.

[Thamalys]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:31 PM, The_Dudemeister said:

In the manliest way imaginable. We throw trash at him.

 

On 11/22/2019 at 7:05 PM, lare2 said:

Ignore him? He's crazy slow and we're crazy quick. 

Haven't fought him yet mind...

Uh - didn't see these two posts until now!

Sorry guys, it's not like my stuff added anything to what @The_Dudemeister and @lare2 already said!

#RefreshBeforeYouPostYouIdiot

[Aaranis]

Hey guys what about adding Arkhan as an ally for magic support and healing of units ? He heals up to 4 flat 3W/3 1W models per turn, knows 3 spells, 3 unbinds, can boost the range of our wizards, and Curse of Years is still a great spell with a little luck. If I'm not wrong about how this works he also knows the Lore of the Mortisans, which gives access to Drain Vitality, a spell that makes an enemy unit within 18" reroll all unmodified 6s to Hit and all unmodified 6s to Save rolls.

I like Arkhan and plan on buying him someday for Legions or Bonereapers anyway so... I start planning

[The_Dudemeister]

5 hours ago, Thamalys said:

30 reapers spending 3 CPs for +2 attacks each (Vampire Lord and mounted KoS) and +1 to hit (KoS on foot) and a GoS nearby may have a chance? Fighting in two ranks, 10 in would mean 40 attacks, hitting on 3+ wounding on 2-... still not enough, probably.

I did the math with 12 Reapers. I think that's doable even when charging from one side, though still not easy because we want to be rather far away before. So positioning in a neat circle around him beforehand is completely out of the question. But anyway,

12 Reapers with +2 attacks each, +1 to hit and +1 to wound would do 7 damage on average. He has 8 hit points and even with an average damage of 8, it would just mean a 50% chance to kill him. So seeing how this strategy has 4 of our best heroes in spitting range of him and he'd be alive, it's safe to say we need another tactic. Stupid sexy Gotrek 😱

Also with 20 Reapers and the 4 heroes, we'd have 820 points and 3CP invested. Sure we could hope for a Nighthaunt charge but we'd only get the +1 wound buff for that and we'd still not comfortably get much over a 50% chance to kill him.

Edited November 24, 2019 by The_Dudemeister

[Thamalys]

5 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I did the math with 12 Reapers. I think that's doable even when charging from one side, though still not easy because we want to be rather far away before. So positioning in a neat circle around him beforehand is completely out of the question. But anyway,

12 Reapers with +2 attacks each, +1 to hit and +1 to wound would do 7 damage on average. He has 8 hit points and even with an average damage of 8, it would just mean a 50% chance to kill him. So seeing how this strategy has 4 of our best heroes in spitting range of him and he'd be alive, it's safe to say we need another tactic. Stupid sexy Gotrek 😱

Also with 20 Reapers and the 4 heroes, we'd have 820 points and 3CP invested. Sure we could hope for a Nighthaunt charge but we'd only get the +1 wound buff for that and we'd still not comfortably get much over a 50% chance to kill him.

Grim

Maybe Endless Spells can help in slowing him down? Shackles, Palisade... he can’t (normally) fly... 

[The_Dudemeister]

Those Endless Spells work in a way but there are two problems I see.

First is that they have a chance of being unbound from 30" away or best case dispelled in the next turn on a mere 6. So the opponent doesn't even have to invest in actively sending forces his way. 

Second, it doesn't slow him as much as I'd like. Shackles for example halves the movement characteristic. 

So from 4" to 2". Doesn't do anything against advancing which again can spike him up to 8". Guaranteed if they use a CP. At some point, without engaging him sooner in combat on our terms, he'll be too close to all the units we shifted to not make the charge. There's only so much board space.

Palisades might actually be decent though for a turn. The more tools we have the merrier. I'll try that out once I encounter him again 🤔

[Thamalys]

5 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I'll try that out once I encounter him again 🤔

What about the Orb of Enchantment?

Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you can pick an enemy hero within 3" of the bearer.  In that combat phase, that hero may not pile in, attack or use abilities.

The cheesy bit with this one is that - as far as I understand - all Gotrek uber-nasty abilities, including the preposterous 3+ shrug and the max 1 damage suffered, go down the sink when the Orb is activated. At that point, you have a model with 8 wounds and a 4+ rendable save that cannot retaliate against you. 

Now: putting the Orb on a meek Spirit Torment, and charging said hero into the Son of Grimnir, swiftly followed by a unit of 10 Bladegheist Revenants (+1 attack on the charge, +1 attack via 1 CP from a mounted KoS), would allow you to nullify Gotrek and pile in (I just tried...) 6 Revenants, which gives you (not even taking into account the surprisingly choppy ST...) a 78.8% chance to get rid of the cheeky dwarf in one go. It's still an investment (you need a ST with the Orb and a mounted KoS wholly within 12" with a CP to spend), but it sounds doable to me?

[The_Dudemeister]

43 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

What about the Orb of Enchantment?

Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you can pick an enemy hero within 3" of the bearer.  In that combat phase, that hero may not pile in, attack or use abilities.

The cheesy bit with this one is that - as far as I understand - all Gotrek uber-nasty abilities, including the preposterous 3+ shrug and the max 1 damage suffered, go down the sink when the Orb is activated. At that point, you have a model with 8 wounds and a 4+ rendable save that cannot retaliate against you. 

Can we confirm this is how it works? I'd love that, especially because it will come out of the blue and is so horribly, wonderfully cheesy 😂

[dmorley21]

I haven't played against Gotrek. If he's camped on an objective you need in a situation like Knife to the Heart... that's going to be tough. Otherwise though, if the player is just trying to send Gotrek at you, I would just put chaff in front of him.

In my usual list, I have two units of 10 Chainrasps and 2 units of 4 Stalkers (I run the Death Stalkers battalion). I'd be happy to sacrifice all four of those units if necessary to slow Gotrek's roll.

[Chikrit]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:07 PM, Chikrit said:

True. I thought the Mortis Engine was nighthaunt.

Probably. Otherwise, it would make no sense.

Anyway, we can run Legion of Grief instead of Nighthaunt with all this, right?

[Aaranis]

Question about Gotrek: as I read his rule, does he never stop consolidating and fighting as long as he's within 3" ? Or does it work only once ?

[Platypus]

Only once.

 

[Aaranis]

Ah that's a relief thanks.

[stato]

Hi all,  does anyone know the current points of the Briar Queen and co.  

They are 180pts in Warscroll Builder , and 150pts in the AoS app and the GW download.  I dont have my GHB to hand to check if it was changed.

Edited November 26, 2019 by stato

[Platypus]

180 is the correct cost. The AoS app still hasn't been updated for this unit. PDF downloads are outdated for many units.

[The_Dudemeister]

Azyr is the most up to date for points values and ability changes and it shows 150. Also when it showed up as 180 points, it was missing the diamond symbol to signalize a change.

We need a FAQ errata, because right now there is no officially correct answer

[Neck-Romantic]

180 after GHB19

[Platypus]

Azyr isn’t the official source. The Pitched Battle Profile booklet (and any books after) that came with the GHB19 is the official source. The diamonds indicating change  is there just for your convenience and was missing from other lists as well. No need to FAQ it, in fact there’s already a FAQ that clarifies what sources count for point cost.

[stato]

4 hours ago, Platypus said:

Azyr isn’t the official source. The Pitched Battle Profile booklet (and any books after) that came with the GHB19 is the official source. The diamonds indicating change  is there just for your convenience and was missing from other lists as well. No need to FAQ it, in fact there’s already a FAQ that clarifies what sources count for point cost.

Yes this is what made me ask the question, as i didnt have the GHB to hand.  Its a shame GW cant keep the Azyr app up to date but people need to stop relying on it, even the best checked app can be wrong (admittedly so can the GHB but its hard copy so its what we use until a FAQ changes it).