AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Vasshpit]

What's thoughts on a heavy, chainghast list?

I feel like they could put out some hurt with their range and get a good deal of melee attacks off with the way they work....

[Neck-Romantic]

I might try a few out now that they had their points reduced slightly (iir)

[Tropical Ghost General]

10 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

What's thoughts on a heavy, chainghast list?

It could work, but they need the re-rolls to hit, 4+ with no re-rolls. Again, I think Mannfred might be the key here, as his ability affects all units within 15", not wholly within either. The only other downside is how to get enough of the models.

[dmorley21]

Along with Myrmourn Banshees and non-max Bladegheists, they are NH's most expensive non-hero/behemoth unit per wound. 

So, maybe they can be effective with the right strategy, but you really got to make them count. 

[Ania Redfang]

Ran up against idoenth deepkin the other day with my Nighthaunt. 

 

It was part of a bigger game with lots of people but my sheets just bounced off their units.

Couldn't kill enough of the thralls to stop them regenerating all the way back up, and the eidolon healed all the damage I managed to do to it.

They turned off my flying as well...

Does anyone have any tips for dealing with the idoneth? 

[Saxon]

Played my first 1k pt game with NH against Khorne demons and managed to win 15-14 on victory points. 

Like all death armies, getting double turned sucks terribly. I was very lucky to get a few 6+ saves in to keep reapers on the table. The returning models abilities are pretty weak. I had a terrible time trying to  get spectral lure off, i think i only got it to work once. The spirit torment return models ability was far more useful.

The stars are the spirit hosts though. They ate a lot of wounds and taking the "Ruler of the Spirit Hosts" ability to return models. Their mortal wound output was also quite reliable. I managed to knock over a Daemon Prince in 2 turns. 

I'm also very lucky my opponent was far more worried about my reapers and ignored my heroes. Kill the heroes in any death list and they fall apart quickly. 

 

[Indecisive]

Man, why can't this army use the Mortis Engine. Makes the one SC! box a perfect fit and aesthetically slots in nicely.

[Panzer]

Because thematically the Mortis Engine is something a Necromancer uses that enslaves Nighthaunt so it would be pretty weird for them to use it in their ranks. GW would have to rewrite the whole thing or add a second version of it to make sense which is honestly just not worth it. They already got special attention with the Black Coach as is.

[Thamalys]

On 11/3/2019 at 8:32 PM, Ania Redfang said:

Ran up against idoenth deepkin the other day with my Nighthaunt. 

 

It was part of a bigger game with lots of people but my sheets just bounced off their units.

Couldn't kill enough of the thralls to stop them regenerating all the way back up, and the eidolon healed all the damage I managed to do to it.

They turned off my flying as well...

Does anyone have any tips for dealing with the idoneth? 

It really depends on which list they're running... and which sort of list you're running against them! Here're a few pointers:

• Don't even try to get rid of Eidolons and/or Leviadons - you need some serious damage in one go to even make a dent, and NH just don't have that. Not even  10 Bladegheist Revenants, fully buffed, on a Wave of Terror will probably manage in one go - one turn after, they're dust. Throw as little chaff/screens at these big guys as possible, but keep doing it so as to keep them busy and avoid them crashing into your expensive elite ranks.
• Eels - the the killy variant: the trick is to charge them first. Cogs (with the help of Reikenor, maybe) + From the Underworld they Come might work: the above mentioned unit of 10 Bladegheists would be my pick. Remember: they bravery is not great! If your greedy opponent has been fielding eels in units of 6... it's Grimghast Reapers time! Your unit of 30 (because every NH player should always have a unit of 30 Reapers!) will do nicely, but you have to screen it and get the charge. Eeels can fly, so you need to exploit the "can't finish your movement within 3" of any enemy unit" rule to avoid having 6 of them smashin into you. If they get just one... well, we can fly while piling in, can't we? 20Grims + Vampire Lord (+1 attack each) + Guardian of Souls on a unit of six = 6 eels gone, this has been tested several times  (60 attacks re-rolling failed hits and wounding on 2s at -1 rend...)
• Eels - the tanky variant: this is the real problem. Even exploiting some solid attriction (see the above mentioned unit of 30 Reapers) these are real tough for NH to deal with. If you have Olynder, now it's the time. Gravesand of Time + Lifting the Veil + Lifestealer + The Banshees screaming should remove a couple of them - and again, their bravery is not phenomenal.
• In terms of list building, assuming you know nothing about the scenario you'd be playing (if it's places of arcane power, just shake their hand and go for a pint - little we can do to displace their heroes...) I'd go for 30 reapers, some three units of Rasps as screens, Reikenor (cogs on 4+) and Olynder (some very much needed MWs), and two units of Revenants plus the obvious buffing pieces . 
• Legion of Grief lends itself quite nicely to being played against Deepkin: you just keep flushing the killy/tanky stuff with huge units of chaff while working with surgical precision to secure objectives via your elites.
• You need to be - very - familiar with the Deepking allegiance abilities, including those list builds that revert/modify the tides.  I have seen players wasting tons of effort in getting charges in during the tide time where the Deepking fight first across the board...
• I like playing against Deepkin. They're tough, but not filthy: even the very heavy eels lists can be dealt with, as those sneaky things are quite costly after all.

Hope some of this makes sense!

[States]

On 11/5/2019 at 10:39 AM, Thamalys said:

It really depends on which list they're running... and which sort of list you're running against them! Here're a few pointers:

• Don't even try to get rid of Eidolons and/or Leviadons - you need some serious damage in one go to even make a dent, and NH just don't have that. Not even  10 Bladegheist Revenants, fully buffed, on a Wave of Terror will probably manage in one go - one turn after, they're dust. Throw as little chaff/screens at these big guys as possible, but keep doing it so as to keep them busy and avoid them crashing into your expensive elite ranks.
• Eels - the the killy variant: the trick is to charge them first. Cogs (with the help of Reikenor, maybe) + From the Underworld they Come might work: the above mentioned unit of 10 Bladegheists would be my pick. Remember: they bravery is not great! If your greedy opponent has been fielding eels in units of 6... it's Grimghast Reapers time! Your unit of 30 (because every NH player should always have a unit of 30 Reapers!) will do nicely, but you have to screen it and get the charge. Eeels can fly, so you need to exploit the "can't finish your movement within 3" of any enemy unit" rule to avoid having 6 of them smashin into you. If they get just one... well, we can fly while piling in, can't we? 20Grims + Vampire Lord (+1 attack each) + Guardian of Souls on a unit of six = 6 eels gone, this has been tested several times  (60 attacks re-rolling failed hits and wounding on 2s at -1 rend...)
• Eels - the tanky variant: this is the real problem. Even exploiting some solid attriction (see the above mentioned unit of 30 Reapers) these are real tough for NH to deal with. If you have Olynder, now it's the time. Gravesand of Time + Lifting the Veil + Lifestealer + The Banshees screaming should remove a couple of them - and again, their bravery is not phenomenal.
• In terms of list building, assuming you know nothing about the scenario you'd be playing (if it's places of arcane power, just shake their hand and go for a pint - little we can do to displace their heroes...) I'd go for 30 reapers, some three units of Rasps as screens, Reikenor (cogs on 4+) and Olynder (some very much needed MWs), and two units of Revenants plus the obvious buffing pieces . 
• Legion of Grief lends itself quite nicely to being played against Deepkin: you just keep flushing the killy/tanky stuff with huge units of chaff while working with surgical precision to secure objectives via your elites.
• You need to be - very - familiar with the Deepking allegiance abilities, including those list builds that revert/modify the tides.  I have seen players wasting tons of effort in getting charges in during the tide time where the Deepking fight first across the board...
• I like playing against Deepkin. They're tough, but not filthy: even the very heavy eels lists can be dealt with, as those sneaky things are quite costly after all.

Hope some of this makes sense!

Would you include a coach in there? 

[Neck-Romantic]

My usual Deepkin opponent typically clusters on top of terrain and chokes the board with his sunken ships to reduce the places where large-footprint units can land; then sends in his generally small-footprint eels to pick you apart. Their max-range sorceror hero picks off ghost heros and the big turtle usually bullies anything but my largest-sized units; who spend most of the game chasing him down til the turn he gets to attack first. Incredibly frustrating army to play against.

[relic456]

4 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

My usual Deepkin opponent typically clusters on top of terrain and chokes the board with his sunken ships to reduce the places where large-footprint units can land; then sends in his generally small-footprint eels to pick you apart. Their max-range sorceror hero picks off ghost heros and the big turtle usually bullies anything but my largest-sized units; who spend most of the game chasing him down til the turn he gets to attack first. Incredibly frustrating army to play against.

I might be misunderstanding you, but the whole of NH can fly, so terrain and whether or not a model has footprint is irrelevant.  You can put your models anywhere so terrain might as well not exist for an NH player.

Edit: For example, if a bunch of eels are on the ground and surrounded by tall terrain pieces, you can say Lady Olynder is climbing on the terrain 3.000001" above the Eels. You won't be able to physically place her but you can put her somewhere close and just speak your intention.  Then when you charge you say she charges to be 0.5" above the Eels' base. As a different example, if the Eels occupy a cylindrical piece of terrain that's 6" tall, you can move Lady Olynder approximately half way up the terrain piece and say she is 3.001" away from the eels, then she charges you say she moves up the terrain to land is 0.5" away. Again she can't physically float, but as long as you and your opponent understand where the model actually is you can have them nearby.

Edited November 6, 2019 by relic456

[Neck-Romantic]

Yyyyyeah that kind of "my model is charging .0001" above yours" kind of stuff doesnt hold water around my club. Nor does toppling your minis off to the side when you cant physically place them on top of whatever terrain is in the way.

[relic456]

11 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Yyyyyeah that kind of "my model is charging .0001" above yours" kind of stuff doesnt hold water around my club. Nor does toppling your minis off to the side when you cant physically place them on top of whatever terrain is in the way.

Fair enough, can't account for house rules of course.
 

Edit: @Neck-Romantic I was thinking about it a bit more and it's understandable that it's frustrating to play under those circumstances.  The fact that the whole army flies is baked in to our points cost and playing that way is a significant nerf to the Fly ability.  Its hard enough playing NH as is, playing without the proper Fly rules is like tying both arms behind your back since you can't take advantage of free vertical movement =\.

Edited November 6, 2019 by relic456

[Panzer]

Yeah if you can't physically place your model, it simply can't go there. No matter whether it can fly or not.

[relic456]

28 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Yeah if you can't physically place your model, it simply can't go there. No matter whether it can fly or not.

That's actually incorrect, as per this FAQ (Core Rules Designer's Commentary, Movement, pg. 4):

And this one (Core Rules Designer's Commentary, Charge Phase, pg. 5):

So as long as you have a piece of terrain to "stick" to, you can place models in mid air.  It was my understanding of @Neck-Romantic's situation that the enemy was using nearby terrain to box out his models so my point was that they could take advantage of this rule to counter that strategy.

Edited November 6, 2019 by relic456

[Thamalys]

19 hours ago, States said:

Would you include a coach in there? 

Not until they bother to include the <HERO> keyword for it... as a start.

The one reason I would take it is to have a piece that is a tad bit more durable that everything else NH, but the damage output is minimal and the no-HERO issue is really something to consider! 

For just 20 pts more, I would consider a Mournghul instead! I personally don’t run that guy because I can’t stand the miniature, but on the table it can do wonders...

[Neck-Romantic]

Everybody:

Me: I'm still butthurt that the Bladegheist limited edition model has no rules

[Spears]

Honestly I think that was the right call. Having to jump through hoops to get a limited edition warscroll for the birthday GOS was a farce.

If it had been just an alt sculpt for a general release warscroll I think that would be okay though.

[Vasshpit]

Release the Krak... er GoS with mortality glass!!!!

[dmorley21]

19 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

Release the Krak... er GoS with mortality glass!!!!

This is the one that gets me. Such a better model too. 

[Neffelo]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:07 AM, Neck-Romantic said:

Everybody:

Me: I'm still butthurt that the Bladegheist limited edition model has no rules

I just converted mine into a "vampire lord" with a unique color scheme compared to the rest of the army.

[Aaranis]

Hey all, I've played a dozen games so far with my NH at 1000 pts and so far I love the army, I've won the majority of my games but now I'm struggling because the weaknesses of my army are showing against the likes of Fyreslayers and their powerful battletome. I've found I've won most of the time by manoeuvering thanks to my 2x5 Hexwraiths, and the Fly rule, but otherwise the only hitting power comes from my 10 Bladegheists, the rest of my units hitting really weakly. And they usually die right after because 10W is not a lot, and the 6+++ is a myth to me.

My list most of the time is: KoSoS, Ruler of Spirit Hosts, Spirit Torment, GoS with lamp, 20 Chainrasps, 2x5 Hexwraiths and 10 Bladegheists. Relic is Beacon of Nagashizzar.

Linked to that I have a few questions for you veterans, even if I understand that the problems and their solutions might be different at 2000 pts but I'm not there yet:

- Healing: what's the most reliable for you ? I always have terrible timing problems for healing due to me never seizing initiative, and so lose the whole unit before my next hero phase. My GoS also dislike succeeding on his spell rolls, and when he does he heals 1 guy if I'm not playing the Beacon. The Spirit Torment looks more reliable as long as I kill three guys each turn, as well as Ruler of Spirit Hosts.

- Damage: my Bladegheists were MVP most of the time, I've learned to always DS them alongside my General and spend the CP to reroll the charge if necessary. If I have the CP and the charge succeeds I give them +1A for 40A and they usually blend anything. But if they do miss or the enemy saves well they'll die immediately and flee with Battleshock (why do spirits flee but not überskeletons ?). Hexwraiths really need their 6s and even then that's not a lot of attacks. 

- Magic: how am I supposed to support my army with the cost of a single Wizard ? I feel like I have to invest half my points on Heroes for each list because of how important they are but casting one spell a turn for each of them is too few. Shademist is great for protection but I have to spend my Relic into making one of my Heroes a Wizard with the Book for that. 

- GoS: lantern or glass ? On one side the lantern is underwhelming when not buffed by the relic, but +1 to Wound buffs my army considerably. As for the glass, the passive is nice but hard to use. The spell however looks great on theory but on practice my retreating unit will either be dead or have 2 models left so the 10+ charge after retreating is less intimidating.

I'll stop here for now that's a lot of words. Thanks for reading me, sorry for the long post but I can't help it ! I have a few questions about LoG too but I'll save them for the relevant thread.

 

[Sauriv]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

Hey all, I've played a dozen games so far with my NH at 1000 pts and so far I love the army, I've won the majority of my games but now I'm struggling because the weaknesses of my army are showing against the likes of Fyreslayers and their powerful battletome. I've found I've won most of the time by manoeuvering thanks to my 2x5 Hexwraiths, and the Fly rule, but otherwise the only hitting power comes from my 10 Bladegheists, the rest of my units hitting really weakly. And they usually die right after because 10W is not a lot, and the 6+++ is a myth to me.

My list most of the time is: KoSoS, Ruler of Spirit Hosts, Spirit Torment, GoS with lamp, 20 Chainrasps, 2x5 Hexwraiths and 10 Bladegheists. Relic is Beacon of Nagashizzar.

Linked to that I have a few questions for you veterans, even if I understand that the problems and their solutions might be different at 2000 pts but I'm not there yet:

- Healing: what's the most reliable for you ? I always have terrible timing problems for healing due to me never seizing initiative, and so lose the whole unit before my next hero phase. My GoS also dislike succeeding on his spell rolls, and when he does he heals 1 guy if I'm not playing the Beacon. The Spirit Torment looks more reliable as long as I kill three guys each turn, as well as Ruler of Spirit Hosts.

- Damage: my Bladegheists were MVP most of the time, I've learned to always DS them alongside my General and spend the CP to reroll the charge if necessary. If I have the CP and the charge succeeds I give them +1A for 40A and they usually blend anything. But if they do miss or the enemy saves well they'll die immediately and flee with Battleshock (why do spirits flee but not überskeletons ?). Hexwraiths really need their 6s and even then that's not a lot of attacks. 

- Magic: how am I supposed to support my army with the cost of a single Wizard ? I feel like I have to invest half my points on Heroes for each list because of how important they are but casting one spell a turn for each of them is too few. Shademist is great for protection but I have to spend my Relic into making one of my Heroes a Wizard with the Book for that. 

- GoS: lantern or glass ? On one side the lantern is underwhelming when not buffed by the relic, but +1 to Wound buffs my army considerably. As for the glass, the passive is nice but hard to use. The spell however looks great on theory but on practice my retreating unit will either be dead or have 2 models left so the 10+ charge after retreating is less intimidating.

I'll stop here for now that's a lot of words. Thanks for reading me, sorry for the long post but I can't help it ! I have a few questions about LoG too but I'll save them for the relevant thread.

 

Hi i will soon write a report about last weeks tournament i went to, i ended up in 9 place of 25 and went 3/0/2.

But here are some of my thoughts on your questions 😊 

Healing: i seldom inculde much healing but when i do i dont use GoS, the spell is as ju say unreliable to cast and swingy in its effect. I perfer ST for healing and i run alot of spirit hosts so that reroll 1 to hit is important for me. ST can also heal heroes which can be very useful. I like playing Deep Strike lists so i don't really need healing. 

Damage: unfortunately i do not own bladegheists but I would love play whith them. One thing I like to include thou is Cogs to more reliable deep strike. That 10+ unmodified charge is just a bonus but to actually get into the fight is gold worth. I usually play with chainrasp, spirit hosts and hexwraiths and i would gladly swap my hosts and horses for blades or reapers. 

Magic: I almost always include Reikenor and Olynder as my only spellcasters. Reikenor can cast cogs reliable and Olynder is a lvl 2 wizard. Reikenor can also cast soul cage easily but it has such a short range... 

GoS: the glass version isn't legal to play with any more so lantern is the only option. 

One important note if you're planing on expanding your army, consider Dreadblade as your general because being able to teleport and then use NHs command ability to teleport a unit to your general is really good. 

[Aaranis]

Thanks for your answers ! I never thought about the ST able to heal heroes, great tip. When did the Glass variant became illegal and why ? He's hardly gamebreaking. 

I plan on buying Dreadblades in my next purchases along with a KoS, he's the ideal commander with the teleport and a perfect bearer for the Aetherquartz Brooch. The unit teleportation ability is indeed very useful, I played a 200 IQ move once with it: I recalled my 2 Hexwraiths near my General, healed them 3 models back with Ruler of Hosts, and then charged the nearest unit with a 10" charge, rolling some nice hits that killed a lot of gobbos. It was a glorious move !

Do you like Spirit Hosts ? Their damage output seems laughable and they don't have a big board presence, capturing and holding objectives with them looks hazardous. I also can't justify running Reapers when Bladegheists are just Reapers +1, at least not in a pure Nighthaunt list.

The Cogs definitely interest me, but I'll use them at 1500 pts+, it's a lot of points for 1000 pts otherwise. Reikenor looks boss indeed. I love Kurdoss' model and lore but sadly he doesn't look terrifying on the table, except for stealing CPs.