AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Qrow]

20 minutes ago, Ahn-ket said:

Their are NH Units that make more mortal wounds by reduced bravery so its not only battleshock phase that counts for that

I know, I have been pushing dreadscythe harridans in the forums and am very excited about LoG making them workable, let alone tomb banshee screams.

However, the point still stands. One of the units that would benefit most from lowered bravery is lady olynder, but if you take her in LoG you lose out on the -2 bravery command trait. That leaves only one LoG spell to lower bravery any lower than you could in nighthaunt, as both NH and LoG have a native -1 bravery allegiance ability and both can take the new endless spell. The LoG spell in question is cast on an 8+, making it very unreliable unless you take reikenor.

So if you take olynder (and you should want to take in her own legion) then you are relying on a 8+ spell to gain any synergy with mass bravery effects in a faction that is supposedly built around bravery manipulation.

It is strange design, I hope they errata some stuff, allow 1 or 2 battalions and some drop points in the GHB. But it just seems that they know how strong bravery effects could be, so they make all these rules that allow you to skip the bravery phase, thus making it a non-phase.

I know I am currently spewing salt, I'll accept that, but that doesn't negate the validity of my complaints.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Qrow

[Ahn-ket]

GHB point drops are sure in my eyes run the points in the models shown in the Pic for LoG and its comes to 2330 points but you are right with the -2 bravery general trait and Lady o as general

[Qrow]

Just now, Ahn-ket said:

GHB point drops are sure in my eyes run the points in the models shown in the Pic for LoG and its comes to 2330 points but you are right with the -2 bravery general trait and Lady o as general

I saw you say this previously, or maybe it was on a facebook post... are they normally 2000 point armies in the pics? Genuinely curious because I have never checked before.

Also, what pic specifically? Because I desperately need to see if there are dreadscythe harridans in it.

[Ahn-ket]

25 minutes ago, Qrow said:

I saw you say this previously, or maybe it was on a facebook post... are they normally 2000 point armies in the pics? Genuinely curious because I have never checked before.

Also, what pic specifically? Because I desperately need to see if there are dreadscythe harridans in it.

Its in the Unboxing of forbidden Power on warhammercommunity 

I'm not sure If it shows 2k armies cause the order one goes over 3k

[Qrow]

Thought I found a loophole in the olynder must be general rule, but I was wrong.

Never thought I would miss set warlord traits from 40K, but here I am.

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Qrow

[TheWilddog]

8 minutes ago, Qrow said:

Ok so, the exact wording is "if it includes any mortarchs, then it must also include lady olynder and she must be your general"

That is the exact wording, to me that states that she only HAS to be your general if you bring another mortarch. So I'm going to assume, until errata'd, that you can take olynder and make another model you general; unless you bring another mortarch, if you bring another mortarch then she must be your general.

 

It is almost the exact wording of the other Legions in the LoN Book.  So just like in Legion of Sacrament if you take Arkan the Black he must be the general.

Edited May 20, 2019 by TheWilddog

[Qrow]

1 minute ago, TheWilddog said:

It is the exact wording of the other Legions in the LoN Book.  So just like in Legion of Sacrament if you take Arkan the Black he must be the general.

Realised and edited my post seconds before I saw yours. It is a pity though

[Scurvydog]

While nowhere near as good as I hoped, as a pure nighthaunt player it still allows me to use my ghosts in a different way, so for that I am happy. IT is disappointing though that the legion is a very watered down copy paste of legion of blood, with half the traits, artifacts and spells, also no locus of shyish to make matters worse.

Compared to nighthaunt, then the traits are perhaps better, as NH really only use ruler of the spirit hosts, while I can see all LoG having a use and none are bad. In stark contrast to the artifacts though, which are all horrible and thank Nagash for malign sorcery if you need any (without battalions though, you only need 1 hurrah). 

Spells is a huge problems, only 3 and I really do not like them much except the -1 save debuff at a 5+ cast, that is pretty nice. The 8+ cast of bravery debuff or a short range spell with the same cast value, but with d3 wounds on only a 4+ is horrible, both a way too swingy and random with too high cast values in an army with no cast bonuses. Again no locus i also a huge hit to the potential of the magic phase compared to any other legion. The NH spell lore is also rather decent, especially spirit prison and shademist, and tether/lifestealer are handy on any hero.

The only reason to use this legion is to use more of the nighthaunt range, although it wont break any meta, as a sacrement or grand host list with grimghasts will still be much better. I will still try it though, as the general allegiance abilities are still somewhat better than the NH ones.

[MrRoff]

Is it just me or are people jumping to conclusions? 

We don't have all the new stuff for LoG on papper and have only had a breef livestream where a guy talked quickly about it. 

Well see more when the forgotten power is "fully" released and everything is on paper. 

 

With that said.  From what we've heard is seems that if olynder is a must as a general (just like in the other legions) they really need to make a good battalion or something with her. 

[Qrow]

1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:

While nowhere near as good as I hoped, as a pure nighthaunt player it still allows me to use my ghosts in a different way, so for that I am happy. IT is disappointing though that the legion is a very watered down copy paste of legion of blood, with half the traits, artifacts and spells, also no locus of shyish to make matters worse.

Compared to nighthaunt, then the traits are perhaps better, as NH really only use ruler of the spirit hosts, while I can see all LoG having a use and none are bad. In stark contrast to the artifacts though, which are all horrible and thank Nagash for malign sorcery if you need any (without battalions though, you only need 1 hurrah). 

Spells is a huge problems, only 3 and I really do not like them much except the -1 save debuff at a 5+ cast, that is pretty nice. The 8+ cast of bravery debuff or a short range spell with the same cast value, but with d3 wounds on only a 4+ is horrible, both a way too swingy and random with too high cast values in an army with no cast bonuses. Again no locus i also a huge hit to the potential of the magic phase compared to any other legion. The NH spell lore is also rather decent, especially spirit prison and shademist, and tether/lifestealer are handy on any hero.

The only reason to use this legion is to use more of the nighthaunt range, although it wont break any meta, as a sacrement or grand host list with grimghasts will still be much better. I will still try it though, as the general allegiance abilities are still somewhat better than the NH ones.

Agree on pretty much all points, the only thing I will add is that if GW makes some very small FAQs, it could be become quite decent.

Add in that LoG gets locus of shyish, just one battalion (come on GW, shrieker host is made for LoG) and make one extra NH unit battleline (most of the other legions get a different unit made battleline).

Do those small things and it would make LoG fun and usable, without being OP.  Also, they do need to clarify if bravey can go into the negative, because that will be happening with LoG.

[Qrow]

2 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

Is it just me or are people jumping to conclusions? 

We don't have all the new stuff for LoG on papper and have only had a breef livestream where a guy talked quickly about it. 

Well see more when the forgotten power is "fully" released and everything is on paper. 

 

With that said.  From what we've heard is seems that if olynder is a must as a general (just like in the other legions) they really need to make a good battalion or something with her. 

I agree in premise, but there are about half a dozen reviews now and most of them show almost every rules page. At the very least there are a lot of holes in some of the rules and it will need an FAQ quickly.

I hope that I am wrong though, because I want LoG (I swear I just think 'legion of ghosts' now) to be good

[Scurvydog]

Perhaps they show restraint due to a huge buff incoming to the nighthaunt line in GHB.... one can dream, I expect anothing actually, perhaps only very slight point alterations at best.

I hope they FAQ battleline and locus to make LoG on equal grounds with other legions. Getting spirit hosts at least, perhaps reapers (or perhaps harridans?) as battleline for LoG could be cool.

As for battalions it always puzzled me there was no battalion with either Olynder or Kurdoss. It would be awesome to have one reflecting their cursed relationsship, like "Husband and Wife tagteam": Olynder needs to be general, but gets 1 free use of command ability each turn. Kurdoss is even more bitter near his wife, and gets soul crushing smite on a 5+ and can reroll his damage die. Something like that.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Qrow]

2 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Perhaps they show restraint due to a huge buff incoming to the nighthaunt line in GHB.... one can dream, I expect anothing actually, perhaps only very slight point alterations at best.

I hope they FAQ battleline and locus to make LoG on equal grounds with other legions. Getting spirit hosts at least, perhaps reapers (or perhaps harridans?) as battleline for LoG could be cool.

Please harridans, please. It would keep it unique from nighthaunt and fit the LoG theme.

[SleeperAgent]

1 hour ago, MrRoff said:

Is it just me or are people jumping to conclusions? 

We don't have all the new stuff for LoG on papper and have only had a breef livestream where a guy talked quickly about it. 

Well see more when the forgotten power is "fully" released and everything is on paper. 

 

With that said.  From what we've heard is seems that if olynder is a must as a general (just like in the other legions) they really need to make a good battalion or something with her. 

I mean its not like he missed anything. He showed the pages LoG covered and read out loud all the things they had. 

As it stands, I feel Nighthaunt is stronger, which is very sad. As being a 2.0 army that is woefully underpowered feels bad. Hopefully the GHB helps out. Hopefully we get our terrain soon and it is on par with the others. The Penumbral engine is trash imo. Even if it were free it's bad. Random is bad, wholly within is bad, not blocking your opponents from the benefit is bad, and payign the points for all those combined is bad. 

[Ahn-ket]

4 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

I mean its not like he missed anything. He showed the pages LoG covered and read out loud all the things they had. 

As it stands, I feel Nighthaunt is stronger, which is very sad. As being a 2.0 army that is woefully underpowered feels bad. Hopefully the GHB helps out. Hopefully we get our terrain soon and it is on par with the others. The Penumbral engine is trash imo. Even if it were free it's bad. Random is bad, wholly within is bad, not blocking your opponents from the benefit is bad, and payign the points for all those combined is bad. 

Right they had to put out free terrain and endless spells for all armies since LoN 

[MrRoff]

Wait... The penumbral engine won't be free? 

[Ahn-ket]

1 minute ago, MrRoff said:

Wait... The penumbral engine won't be free? 

Right it will cost 100p

[Qrow]

13 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

I mean its not like he missed anything. He showed the pages LoG covered and read out loud all the things they had. 

As it stands, I feel Nighthaunt is stronger, which is very sad. As being a 2.0 army that is woefully underpowered feels bad. Hopefully the GHB helps out. Hopefully we get our terrain soon and it is on par with the others. The Penumbral engine is trash imo. Even if it were free it's bad. Random is bad, wholly within is bad, not blocking your opponents from the benefit is bad, and payign the points for all those combined is bad. 

I figured it would cost extra if you wanted to take it in addition to a faction specific terrain piece, costing 100 always just makes it completely terrible. I can't imagine anyone ever taking one for that cost

[Nasrod]

Probably bad time to post since the LoG is all the rage, but I would like an opinion on this list for 2k points.

Heroes

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern Wychlight, Soul Cage

Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass Shademist, Chainguard

Spirit Torment General, Ruler of the Spirit Hosts, Aetherquartz Pendant

Vampire Lord

Battleline

Chainrasp Horde x 30 Chainguard

Chainrasp Horde x 20 Chainguard

Grimghast Reapers x 30

Other

Myrmourn Banshee x 12

Bladegheist Revenant x 15

Battalion

Chainguard

Endless Spells

Soulsnare Shackles

Prismatic Pallisade

1950/2000, 2 Command Points

 

The idea for this came during discussion of the merits of a 2nd Guardian of Souls. "If only they could both return models." Oh wait...they can!

Everything after is a hard focus on that theme; all 3 of the Nighthaunt Heroes form up around a group and try their best to keep them rolling as long as possible. 

I can drop the endless spells to get 60 chainrasp instead of 50, but I like the movement shenanigans subtheme to support the Chainrasps; it should more or less guarantee they pile in and fight far more efficiently than opposing chaffe or tarpits.

Spirit Torment is chosen as the General simply because he is versatile; he obviously works best with the Gheists, but any unit he pulls toward him in this list will benefit from his abilities.

Wychlight on Guardian of Souls opposed to Beacon as letting the Grimghasts "also fight first" should almost always save the unit more models than it would trying to heal them up after the fact with Beacon of Nagashizar.

Vampire Lord goes wherever I want more attacks, Myrmourn Deep Strike next to a caster, protecting my hordes from magic in addition to being a good distraction carnifex.

That's my thought process for the list as a whole. Let me know if it can be made better in any way, other than spamming Necromancers in Legion of Grief, lol.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Nasrod

[Scurvydog]

4 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Probably bad time to post since the LoG is all the rage, but I would like an opinion on this list for 2k points.

Heroes

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern Wychlight, Soul Cage

Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass Shademist, Chainguard

Spirit Torment General, Ruler of the Spirit Hosts, Aetherquartz Pendant

Vampire Lord

Battleline

Chainrasp Horde x 30 Chainguard

Chainrasp Horde x 20 Chainguard

Grimghast Reapers x 30

Other

Myrmourn Banshee x 12

Bladegheist Revenant x 15

Battalion

Chainguard

Endless Spells

Soulsnare Shackles

Prismatic Pallisade

1950/2000, 2 Command Points

 

The idea for this came during discussion of the merits of a 2nd Guardian of Souls. "If only they could both return models." Oh wait...they can!

Everything after is a hard focus on that theme; all 3 of the Nighthaunt Heroes form up around a group and try their best to keep them rolling as long as possible. 

I can drop the endless spells to get 60 chainrasp instead of 50, but I like the movement shenanigans subtheme to support the Chainrasps; it should more or less guarantee they pile in and fight far more efficiently than opposing chaffe or tarpits.

Spirit Torment is chosen as the General simply because he is versatile; he obviously works best with the Gheists, but any unit he pulls toward him in this list will benefit from his abilities.

Wychlight on Guardian of Souls opposed to Beacon as letting the Grimghasts "also fight first" should almost always save the unit more models than it would trying to heal them up after the fact with Beacon of Nagashizar.

Vampire Lord goes wherever I want more attacks, Myrmourn Deep Strike next to a caster, protecting my hordes from magic in addition to being a good distraction carnifex.

That's my thought process for the list as a whole. Let me know if it can be made better in any way, other than spamming Necromancers in Legion of Grief, lol.

I like the theme of the list and if you face some up front armies I think it can do alright.

I do think it is missing something in a few scenarios which will impact you a lot on different battleplans. For example if you need to hold points with heroes, you will quickly lose steam, as this is very much a huge blob. Also the cost of the chainguard in general seems to be better just to invest in more chainrasps from the beginning, bringing back an average of 3-4 each turn is all you get, and that has minimal impact really. Healing on the utility character might also end up being wasted, if you want said utility on a fresh unit.

Basically I dont find chainguard worth it nor the endless spells, as your 2 casters should be busy using their 2 spells already. This could all afford you an entire unit extra of something, actually if you skip the 1 CP, battalion and spells, you can get Kurdoss Valention for 2k on the nose. He can possibly throw a wrench in the CP machine in your favor and provide som hitting power and be very scary with all those +wound bubbles going around and strike last spells. 

Wychlight is good, but midnight tome for the torment is also worth considering. +1 to cast on one, or you get another dispell and chance to cast another spell, such as spectral tether to heal your heroes who are critical to your gameplan. Just some suggestions for tweaks

[MrRoff]

7 hours ago, Ahn-ket said:

Right it will cost 100p

Wait... for real?
Like why tf is it so expensive for a random effect and wholy within...

All other scenery for FEC, Khorne, Gloomspite, etc are free with better effects

I kinda get it when it's an free for all scenery that it would cost points, but 100 is 2 commandpoints itself.
 

[AverageBoss]

9 hours ago, Qrow said:

Add in that LoG gets locus of shyish, just one battalion (come on GW, shrieker host is made for LoG) and make one extra NH unit battleline (most of the other legions get a different unit made battleline).

Actually, only Grand Host gets extra battleline options. So its unlikely LoG will get any.

[Neck-Romantic]

Ive said it a few times but the Mortis Engine is a great fit for a NH - turned - LoG list; +1 to cast -1 to enemy cast aura, MW output and heal/harm explosion for 180 points

...for whomever was saying we had little + to cast

Edited May 20, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Evil Bob]

Wouldn’t it be a hoot if in the next General’s Handbook all the “free” terrain gained match play costs?  That might be giving GW too much credit.

[AverageBoss]

2 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

Wouldn’t it be a hoot if in the next General’s Handbook all the “free” terrain gained match play costs?  That might be giving GW too much credit.

Only if they repoint all the armies that were made with thier free terrain in mind.