AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion

[Domowoj]

4 hours ago, Mattbringssoda said:

However my opponent states that the faqs stipulate that such bonuses only go to riders,   not mounts,  so the drones were SOL.   Hes a good egg and I kinda remembered reading that once before I took a break from the game so I went with  it - but i wanted to check with you experienced Nurgle generals- do the drones themselves not enjoy the bonus attacks of these abilities?  I looked at the maggotkin and chaos faqs and didn't see any clarification.

The english version of GHB 2017 contained a line that said (paraphrasing) "command abilities and artifacts don't affect mounts."

Games Workshop clarified that it was a misprint, and meant to say "command traits and artifacts don't affect mounts."

This same corrected line has been carried over into the AOS 2 core rules, so you're good to go; both the Locus of Contagion and Grandfather's Joy affect the rot flies' number of attacks. Essentially, all abilities affect mounts unless specifically noted otherwise.

I am sure that you would prefer to have a citation on these rulings, but I don't have my books with me currently, and so I apologize about that.

[Tasman]

5 hours ago, Mattbringssoda said:

Had my first Nurgle battle today and i had a blast, I'm glad I chose this army.

A question on plague drones  - I was thinking their Locus of Contagion ability would up ALL their attacks,  both the riders plague swords/shooting and all the drones various attacks.  Likewise i thought the GUO's Grandfather's Joy would boost ALL that models attacks, not just the riders.

However my opponent states that the faqs stipulate that such bonuses only go to riders,   not mounts,  so the drones were SOL.   Hes a good egg and I kinda remembered reading that once before I took a break from the game so I went with  it - but i wanted to check with you experienced Nurgle generals- do the drones themselves not enjoy the bonus attacks of these abilities?  I looked at the maggotkin and chaos faqs and didn't see any clarification.

Thanks all

Pretty sure that it's stated in the battletome that it's only command TRAITS and ARTIFATS that don't affect mounts. Spells, abilities, etc do.

[Tasman]

12 hours ago, tchad78 said:

No one said you had to.

I appear to be wrong. I stand corrected. My bad. Sorry. 

Now what you should do is drop the second unit of knights and make it a plaguetouched battalion.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Tasman

[Domowoj]

If I buff a unit of plague monks (with woe staves) with both The Glottkin's CA and a Verminlord's CA, I get 8 attacks per monk on the charge, right?

Foetid Blades have 2 attacks each, 3 instead if they charged. Plus one attack from offhand Woe Staff. This equates to four attacks base (assuming charge) over two weapon profiles. Each CA adds 1 attack to each weapon profile, so another two blade attacks and another two staff attacks.

My next question is whether this is better than taking pair of Foetid Blades. The same scenario would only yield 5 attacks per monk, but rerolling all misses.

Statistically, a unit of 40 monks (let's assume all could reach enemy models with all their weapons) with 8 attacks each would hit 100 times with their foetid blades, and 60 times with their woe staves. These hits would statistically translate into 50 blade wounds and 20 staff wounds.

The same level of analysis for a unit of 40 monks with pair of foetid blades would yield 100 hits, rerolling all misses for another 50 hits, and then 75 blade wounds.

Please correct me if I calculated something incorrectly there, but the bottom line seems that both options are similar in terms of damage output with odds favoring (slightly) equipping your monks with a pair of foetid blades. However, when you add Blades of Putrefaction into the mix, you get 320 attacks=53.33 mortal wounds versus 200 attacks=33.33 mortal wounds plus 100 rerolled attacks=16.67 mortal wounds. So now we are looking at Blades and Staves=70 wounds + 53.33 mortal wounds versus Pair of Blades= 75 wounds + 50 mortal wounds. And to add to this, it's likely you wont be able to pile in all 40 monks to be able to attack on the turn you charge; my experience is usually about 30-32 monks are able to get into a two-rank pile-in. That would mean we can scale all this calculation realistically to just 30 monks, and then units equipped with woe staves would be able to get an extra 30 attacks (3 staff attacks each with 2" range from the leftover ten monks in the 3rd rank) over units with just foetid blades. Now the stats favor units with woe staves.

What do you all think about this?

[Marucho]

I don't know if the +1 A on charge is added to the profile that gets doubled....I doubt it.

After all you play against just another dude and if your combo gets too ridiculous for an opponent to process you probably got something wrong or it needs fixing.

I'm probably not 2018 enough if I refer to common sense since you always need someone else to play this game with / against to have fun..

Edited August 17, 2018 by Marucho

[Domowoj]

23 minutes ago, Tasman said:

I appear to be wrong. I stand corrected. My bad. Sorry. 

Now what you should do is drop the second unit of knights and make it a plaguetouched battalion.

If he takes plaguetouched, he has to switch his allegiance and lose out on Blades of Putrefaction.

Blades of Putrefaction is very iffy for two reasons, the first being the casting difficulty and the second being opponents who can debuff you with -1 to hit. This chaos knight list is one of the only places you can ignore that second reason.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Domowoj

[Domowoj]

8 minutes ago, Marucho said:

I don't know if the +1 A on charge is added to the profile that gets doubled....I doubt it.

After all you play against just another dude and if your combo gets too ridiculous for an opponent to process you probably got something wrong or it needs fixing.

I'm probably not 2018 enough if I refer to common sense since you always need someone else to play this game with / against to have fun..

Is this in reference to my plague monk post? If so, I am not sure what you mean. No weapon profiles are getting doubled; there is no multiplication going on, only addition. And please forgive me if you weren't addressing my post.

[Tasman]

18 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

If I buff a unit of plague monks (with woe staves) with both The Glottkin's CA and a Verminlord's CA, I get 8 attacks per monk on the charge, right?

Foetid Blades have 2 attacks each, 3 instead if they charged. Plus one attack from offhand Woe Staff. This equates to four attacks base (assuming charge) over two weapon profiles. Each CA adds 1 attack to each weapon profile, so another two blade attacks and another two staff attacks.

My next question is whether this is better than taking pair of Foetid Blades. The same scenario would only yield 5 attacks per monk, but rerolling all misses.

Statistically, a unit of 40 monks (let's assume all could reach enemy models with all their weapons) with 8 attacks each would hit 100 times with their foetid blades, and 60 times with their woe staves. These hits would statistically translate into 50 blade wounds and 20 staff wounds.

The same level of analysis for a unit of 40 monks with pair of foetid blades would yield 100 hits, rerolling all misses for another 50 hits, and then 75 blade wounds.

Please correct me if I calculated something incorrectly there, but the bottom line seems that both options are similar in terms of damage output with odds favoring (slightly) equipping your monks with a pair of foetid blades. However, when you add Blades of Putrefaction into the mix, you get 320 attacks=53.33 mortal wounds versus 200 attacks=33.33 mortal wounds plus 100 rerolled attacks=16.67 mortal wounds. So now we are looking at Blades and Staves=70 wounds + 53.33 mortal wounds versus Pair of Blades= 75 wounds + 50 mortal wounds. And to add to this, it's likely you wont be able to pile in all 40 monks to be able to attack on the turn you charge; my experience is usually about 30-32 monks are able to get into a two-rank pile-in. That would mean we can scale all this calculation realistically to just 30 monks, and then units equipped with woe staves would be able to get an extra 30 attacks (3 staff attacks each with 2" range from the leftover ten monks in the 3rd rank) over units with just foetid blades. Now the stats favor units with woe staves.

What do you all think about this?

Appears so, if you have enough CPs to pull it off. 3 attacks (on charge) w/ blades +2 for the CPs,=5, then 3 each for the staves. Makes for basically one turn of very nasty unless you have some way of ensuring 2 Cps for multiple turns? Lots of stuff has to happen for this to work, tho.

[Tasman]

18 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

If he takes plaguetouched, he has to switch his allegiance and lose out on Blades of Putrefaction.

Blades of Putrefaction is very iffy for two reasons, the first being the casting difficulty and the second being opponents who can debuff you with -1 to hit. This chaos knight list is one of the only places you can ignore that second reason.

Yeah, that's why I said it. Blades/demonic power/Sayl teleport/cogs..... that's a lot to have happening in order for this to work. If one or two of those spells fails or gets dis-spelled it doesn't work out so swell. That's why the battalion. At least you have the -1 to hit across the board no matter what.

[Domowoj]

59 minutes ago, Tasman said:

Appears so, if you have enough CPs to pull it off. 3 attacks (on charge) w/ blades +2 for the CPs,=5, then 3 each for the staves. Makes for basically one turn of very nasty unless you have some way of ensuring 2 Cps for multiple turns? Lots of stuff has to happen for this to work, tho.

Only two things need to happen. You need to have 2 CP, which is easily done and no risk here. So this method only depends on one dice roll: a successful charge, and that can be helped in numerous ways to make it less risky. This effect doesn't need to carry over multiple turns because you will delete the unit you hit, or enough of it that you don't need the buffs to finish it off.

However, I usually take a 1950/2000 list and an Aetherquartz brooch. This lets me start with 2 CP and each time I use one, it's a 5+ roll to recover the used CP.

 

54 minutes ago, Tasman said:

Yeah, that's why I said it. Blades/demonic power/Sayl teleport/cogs..... that's a lot to have happening in order for this to work. If one or two of those spells fails or gets dis-spelled it doesn't work out so swell. That's why the battalion. At least you have the -1 to hit across the board no matter what.

You are right, there are a lot of things that need to happen to make Tchad's combo perfect, however it doesn't require every little thing you mentioned to be successful; it really only needs Blades of Putrefaction and the CLoDM's CA stacked. Movement shenanigans are fine, but he's likely to get a charge with knights anyway with the free re-roll; Cogs and Sayl are just gravy. Daemonic power is just a cherry on top. Again, starting with extra CPs and/or banking your first turn CP has no risk associated with it. The only thing here is Blades of Putrefaction. Plaguetouched is the wrong choice for this list because it would strip away any possibility of this offensive combo being able to work. If he fails to cast BoP, that's one thing, but if he doesn't have the spell to begin with, he will fail to cast it 100% of the time. 10 Knights without BoP are still scary, but it's better to have that tool available.  If you want more defense, put Witherstave on the CLoDM.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Domowoj

[tchad78]

4 hours ago, Domowoj said:

Only two things need to happen. You need to have 2 CP, which is easily done and no risk here. So this method only depends on one dice roll: a successful charge, and that can be helped in numerous ways to make it less risky. This effect doesn't need to carry over multiple turns because you will delete the unit you hit, or enough of it that you don't need the buffs to finish it off.

However, I usually take a 1950/2000 list and an Aetherquartz brooch. This lets me start with 2 CP and each time I use one, it's a 5+ roll to recover the used CP.

 

You are right, there are a lot of things that need to happen to make Tchad's combo perfect, however it doesn't require every little thing you mentioned to be successful; it really only needs Blades of Putrefaction and the CLoDM's CA stacked. Movement shenanigans are fine, but he's likely to get a charge with knights anyway with the free re-roll; Cogs and Sayl are just gravy. Daemonic power is just a cherry on top. Again, starting with extra CPs and/or banking your first turn CP has no risk associated with it. The only thing here is Blades of Putrefaction. Plaguetouched is the wrong choice for this list because it would strip away any possibility of this offensive combo being able to work. If he fails to cast BoP, that's one thing, but if he doesn't have the spell to begin with, he will fail to cast it 100% of the time. 10 Knights without BoP are still scary, but it's better to have that tool available.  If you want more defense, put Witherstave on the CLoDM.

Yeah, I anticipate BoP is my first cast and I'm sure as heck looking to keep him outside of unbind range and on Arcane terrain if I can.  With a well placed Gnarlmaw I shouldn't need Sayl, but it could lead to some potent movement options.  With cogs the knights are getting +3 to charge - rerolling.  Gutrot will need a 7 to get in, his Blightking band 6's.  If I don't get BoP off, I'm hoping to hold it for a turn and have the blightkings do some work.

[tchad78]

6 hours ago, Tasman said:

I appear to be wrong. I stand corrected. My bad. Sorry. 

Now what you should do is drop the second unit of knights and make it a plaguetouched battalion.

I would love to run a PTWB, but my entire list revolves around Nurgle abilities and PTWB is General Alliance Chaos only now.

[Wulfenone]

Hi fellow hobbyists,

Super green to this side of the fense. Not really sure what im doing in terms of synergy and army compostiton. I love the Glottkin and Archaon minis just not sure if what I created would work well togther. Any input output what ever put would be awesome from you guys and gals.  I'm not 100% sold on WSB, maybe im wrong. I play in a semi/competitive scene. Hope this helps

Allegiance: Nurgle
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Archaon (660)
- General
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- Artefact: The Witherstave 
The Glottkin (420)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall

Battleline
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields

Units
3 x Nurglings (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
 

[Blackspine]

6 minutes ago, Wulfenone said:

Hi fellow hobbyists,

Super green to this side of the fense. Not really sure what im doing in terms of synergy and army compostiton. I love the Glottkin and Archaon minis just not sure if what I created would work well togther. Any input output what ever put would be awesome from you guys and gals.  I'm not 100% sold on WSB, maybe im wrong. I play in a semi/competitive scene. Hope this helps

Allegiance: Nurgle
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Archaon (660)
- General
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- Artefact: The Witherstave 
The Glottkin (420)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall

Battleline
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields

Units
3 x Nurglings (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
 

You're off to a great start!
Here's my thoughts:

Blight Kings are great, but at a 5 man, they can't act as a true anvil. They're amazing for dropping in w Gutrot, flanking or stealing objectives, but they don't have the sheer power/ rend to form a hard hitting unit. Push one of those units to 10. Keep the other at 5.

Marauders are amazing. But they go down fast (w o support) Seems like you're going for the Glotkin spell 'fleshy' and blades on them. They're amazing recipients, for SURE, but that 40 man unit will face heat. You'll be hard pressed to support two units. W o buffs, or IC you're losing a lot per turn.
Ditch the 20 man and dump those points elsewhere.

Nurglings are nifty, not sure if they fit this list.

Here's my take on your list,

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nurgle

Leaders
Archaon (660)
- General
The Glottkin (420)
Harbinger of Decay (160)
Plague Priest with Warpstone-tipped Staff (80)

Battleline
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150

Very much the same premise as your first, but the following

PBKs are upped to 10 man. This is a damn hard unit to shift. That's 41 wounds.

Removed marauders: reasons above.

80 left over points, tossed in a plague priest to make some nasty attacks.  If the prayer goes off,  and PBKs are focusing target, they're wounding on 2+. That's incredible. 

If you're going to buff a unit, go to town on the marauders.

Fleshy, glotkin's buff and let them do work.

Harbinger's buff is debatable where, but blight kings w a 4=/5++ are damn resilient. 

 

Good luck 

[Wulfenone]

Blackspine. Thank you for the input. 

[Darkfine]

To food for thought the above advice.

Big units on 40mm bases are incredibly unwieldy.  There is a lot of opportunity to mess with them and reduce their effectiveness in any particular combat.

If you are digging the Harbinger/mortal interactions I’d suggest doubling down on it.  

Drop the Nurglings, the Kings and bump the 20 Marauders to 40 and add a min unit of Warriors, they aren’t going to do much but are our cheapest battleline tax option.  

After that I’d look at things like Chaos Sorcer Lords for Demonic Empowerment and Ocular Vision, Warshrines for the 6+++ and wound rerolls, Lords of Blight for that sweet -2/-1 to hit, or, if you are a Gentleman of refined taste with a little sculpting aptitude, a Chaos War Mammoth.  Because holy cow(Mammoth) those things are efficient.

[Zplash]

13 hours ago, Wulfenone said:

Hi fellow hobbyists,

Super green to this side of the fense. Not really sure what im doing in terms of synergy and army compostiton. I love the Glottkin and Archaon minis just not sure if what I created would work well togther. Any input output what ever put would be awesome from you guys and gals.  I'm not 100% sold on WSB, maybe im wrong. I play in a semi/competitive scene. Hope this helps

Allegiance: Nurgle
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Archaon (660)
- General
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- Artefact: The Witherstave 
The Glottkin (420)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall

Battleline
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields

Units
3 x Nurglings (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
 

Agree on the comments before from the mates.

Just one add.  hint, as i know you are only allowed to pick 1 extra spell for glottkin. You have to decide which one you wanna take but you can choose out of both spell lores.

Maybe switch nurglings plus your 20 points left into a sorcerer to get both spells, or a poxbringer for favored poxes. I think the spell is totally underrated.

[Domowoj]

22 hours ago, Wulfenone said:

army list

I also agree with all these fine suggestions, but I especially love Darkfine's ideas!

Archaon and the Glott boys would absolutely be bringing a mammoth!

 

EDIT:

P.S. Now I can't stop thinking about converting a mammoth.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Domowoj

[Luke1705]

The plaguetouched warband list that I’m going to try is the following:

Archaon

Lord of Blights

Lord of Blights

Harbinger of Decay (General, Malicious Conqueror, Crown of Conquest)

Sorcerer Lord on Mount

40 Marauders

40 Marauders

5 Warriors

Geminids

1950

Basically all of the Marauders are -2/-2 with a 5+ FNP and literally battleshock immune. Still have an extra command point if need be and I don’t rely on blades going off. For what it’s worth, in one of the first three turns, you can pretty reliably count on it going off once (or more if you’re lucky) and that can certainly win games for you.

The thing I like about this list is that it doesn’t rely on mortal wounds to win. It relies on out-nurgling you. The thing I don’t like about this list is that it doesn’t have the ability to do mortal wounds and relies on volume of attacks, but really doesn’t have that many attacks. It’s just disgustingly resilient. Doesn’t really kill that much on paper, and I miss my witherstave already.

[Tasman]

1 hour ago, Luke1705 said:

The plaguetouched warband list that I’m going to try is the following:

Archaon

Lord of Blights

Lord of Blights

Harbinger of Decay (General, Malicious Conqueror, Crown of Conquest)

Sorcerer Lord on Mount

40 Marauders

40 Marauders

5 Warriors

Geminids

1950

Basically all of the Marauders are -2/-2 with a 5+ FNP and literally battleshock immune. Still have an extra command point if need be and I don’t rely on blades going off. For what it’s worth, in one of the first three turns, you can pretty reliably count on it going off once (or more if you’re lucky) and that can certainly win games for you.

The thing I like about this list is that it doesn’t rely on mortal wounds to win. It relies on out-nurgling you. The thing I don’t like about this list is that it doesn’t have the ability to do mortal wounds and relies on volume of attacks, but really doesn’t have that many attacks. It’s just disgustingly resilient. Doesn’t really kill that much on paper, and I miss my witherstave already.

You may need to re-read that scroll for the Harbinger..... it states that he can give "a' unit the 5+ save. Singular now as opposed to the 7" bubble effect of before. Still pretty potent though.

[Domowoj]

1 hour ago, Tasman said:

You may need to re-read that scroll for the Harbinger..... it states that he can give "a' unit the 5+ save. Singular now as opposed to the 7" bubble effect of before. Still pretty potent though.

Tasman, can you point us to where this has changed? I don't have my Maggotkin tome with me currently, but I found two different copies (of course) of the Harbinger of Decay's warscroll on the Games Workshop website. Morbid Vigour performs the same on both of them, just like I think it always has, as a 7" protection nova. However, it's interesting that one of the wordings uses the word "suffers" and one uses "allocates."

[Luke1705]

It hasn’t changed. Yes it says “each time you allocate a wound to a unit that is within 7 of the harbinger” but that doesn’t indicate that you can only do this for 1 unit. He protects all units that are within 7” of him. Fear not fellow nurglings

[Domowoj]

I like the list, Luke! It's an interesting idea for a strong basic strategy; 80 hard-to-move bodies for objective-grabbing. I am eager to hear how it performs. Can you find room for another 40 marauders in there?

 

[BlancoNino]

32 minutes ago, Tasman said:

You may need to re-read that scroll for the Harbinger..... it states that he can give "a' unit the 5+ save. Singular now as opposed to the 7" bubble effect of before. Still pretty potent though.

I think your interpretation is a little off personally.  If it said pick a unit within 7" you would be correct.  The warscroll says each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a friendly Nurgle unit while they are within 7".  To me the "a"  is a description, not a limit.  Also I belive they FAQ changes like that (see Glottkin ability change) and there isn't anything for Harbringer.

[kenshin620]

For those looking for Nurgle themed Marauders, the Nurgle themed Bloodbowl team may be useful for conversion parts.