AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion

[meatpipeline]

2 hours ago, zamerion said:

It sounds strange, but this Saturday I have a small event in which you have to bring a list of 500 points.

I haven't played in a long time and I've never make a list of so few points, in addition there are restrictions... 150 points max for a general and a battleline compulsory.. so it's being very difficult for me..

 

I have thought in a plague drone unit and a herald as general (or maybe use festus) ,  and for the battleline.. a unit of blightkings.. 

Any better ideas?

Is it worth using everchosen subfactions? if yes, what?

Thanks in advance

 

 

Is summoning legal?  It seems like it would be too good.  Summoning 10 Plaguebearers is 25% of the total points of your army.

You might be able to find more information by looking for discussions of escalation leagues.  I think they usually start in the 500-600 point range.

Theorycrafting about the 500 pts level... the most units I could see people taking would be 5 (averaging 100 pts per unit), but even then I think most armies will have 4 or less units.  This means that heroes are going to be at least 1/4th the opposing army, so anti-hero abilities become better.  Killing and mobility seem like they become more important.  Hitting first is huge.  Every time you kill a model, you remove more points (percentage wise) from the enemy army than a higher point game.  Then there are command points...your army will have limited number of ways to spend command points.  I think you want to make sure if you have a command ability, it is very good or you can use the core ones effectively.  I would look for a command ability that helps with killing or mobility.  Rend becomes more important, as you have less "weight of dice" to punch through high armor saves.

I'm learning to play AoS, so I've played a few 500 pt games recently via TTS.   I've been running a Lord of Plagues (Hulking Physique / Splinthorn Helm), Blightkings, and Pusgoyles.  The army is slow and with only 3 units, I need to hope the game is on a small table and I don't need to spread out.  If its a moving objective battleplan, I have a hard time keeping up.  My army would have more range with a Lord of Blights (shooting + give Blightkings shooting), but his command ability is defensive.  The Lord of Plagues gives reroll 1s to hit to Blightkings, can generate contagion points, and has a command ability that deals mortal wounds. 

Mathammering Pusgoyles vs. Plague Drones comes out very close with Plague Drones being more offensive (more average wounds in melee, ability to shoot) and Pusgoyles having more survivability (more effective wounds) + healing.  Plague Drones pull farther ahead if you can consistently trigger Locus of Contagion (+1 attacks with nearby daemon hero).

I wouldn't use Festus, as he is the most fragile unit in the battletome (6 wounds, 5+ save, no DPR).

Hope that helps.

On 6/14/2020 at 11:24 PM, backslide said:

I have been using a contorted empitemy for this job it's a great utility support character with its 9 attacks

Interesting, I haven't seen that before!  Has anyone tried using a Contorted Epitome as an ally in a Nurgle army?

[hurben]

3 hours ago, zamerion said:

It sounds strange, but this Saturday I have a small event in which you have to bring a list of 500 points.

I haven't played in a long time and I've never make a list of so few points, in addition there are restrictions... 150 points max for a general and a battleline compulsory.. so it's being very difficult for me..

I have thought in a plague drone unit and a herald as general (or maybe use festus) ,  and for the battleline.. a unit of blightkings.. 

Any better ideas?

Is it worth using everchosen subfactions? if yes, what?

Thanks in advance

If I were you i'll play this. Check details on the attached list.

Harbinger of Decay
1x Putrid
1x Putrid

500ptsNurgle.pdf

[zamerion]

56 minutes ago, hurben said:

If I were you i'll play this. Check details on the attached list.

Harbinger of Decay
1x Putrid
1x Putrid

500ptsNurgle.pdf 5.73 MB · 1 download

Thank!, i was thinking in the harbringer too, but there is a limit of 150 points for the character

 

Maybe a unit of blightkings, gutrot spume, and a unit of pusgolyles/plague drones?  

Edited June 17, 2020 by zamerion

[Deadkitten]

On 6/8/2020 at 6:21 PM, Troll.exe said:

Hey team.

Love the models, I’m wanting to batch paint 2k points straight off the bat then add to the army from there. Nothing too scary in my local group, Khorne daemons, OBR(no shooting), Nighthaunt, LON.

Just wondering if there’s any auto include models/battalions I should know about? Any pointers for a good core to a 2k force would be appreciated. Cheers

It really depends on which direction you want to go Mortals or Deamons.  After that, it's whether you want a GUO or not.  Batch painting a 2K force is an endeavor.  While you could theoretically split the difference and paint half of each I strongly recommend looking at some Blightking Blightcyst lists and some Deamon Tallyband lists.  Try to proxy a game with each.  Then go all in on what you want. 

 

Of course it goes without saying pick the models you want to paint.  Get a box of both Blightkings and Plaguebearers and paint them up.  Which models did you like painting more?  Go that direction with the rest of the 2K army.

[Zplash]

Even with the announced GHB2020 no action here

Hopefully there are some good news for us in it and some new options to create some lists or use some cool models in competetive play - I look at you horticulus slimux and you maggot Lords

[Oceanic_Eyes]

Give me Nurgling battleline or give me death.

[Dreadmund]

I don't really expect the new GHB to change anything for us. We might get some point tweaks, but they would have to do something extreme to upset the internal balance enough to make a difference. I would love to be surprised though!

[hurben]

4 minutes ago, Oceanic_Eyes said:

Give me Nurgling battleline or give me death.

We'll never have change like this until new BT, I think.
I expect some points adjustments and that's it.

[Hannibal]

Yes, ADJUSTMENTS, but no real changes. That´s how GW does it.

 

IMO we are not competetive as a single used battletome. There are people who can play the Nurgle allegiance with some success, but that is strictly cherry picking out of various sources.

 

I don´t really know how the points for Nurglings (just an example) have to be before I even start to consider using them. And I really like them modelwise. I own quite a bunch of them. Though they offer no real purpose in that actual state of the game. They´re just sitting there and doing nothing. They don´t contribute to the game. I can´t see how that would change even if they cost 30 for 3. Then they were just another unit with high wound count that sits there and does nothing but slowly die.

Even our most offensive unit – Blightkings – shine as sitting ducks and hardly kill anything besides chaff.

 

That – IMO – is the weakness of Maggotkin of Nurgle, points ADJUSTMENTS won´t change anything here. It´s a severe misconception from day one on.

 

My Maggotkin of Nurgle (I mean if I use the units in that book) games most often follow this path:

- turns 1-2 I get a sceanrio lead due to our ability to speed up the forces and to not die to a stiff breeze

- turns 3+ my opponents slowly grinds me down because no matter what I do / use, he kills more than I´m able to kill in return. We are just not killy.

- turns 4+ I start to loose on sceanrio due to lack of troops

 

That being said, after being a GW customer for 25 years now, I refused to "hope" for anything. I do not think that GW really understand their own games.  For me it nothing more than "I like to paint these minis – ok, then I have to swallow a pill".  Maybe we will be the top faction after the next iteration of our battletome, but even if that will happen, it won´t be good for the game nor for the faction. We will be in the top for maybe a year then, but after some new releases, the old circle of good – average – poor – neglected by players will turn. As long as GW exists.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Hannibal

[hughwyeth]

The biggest gap for me was seeing the warscrolls for Mortek Guard and Pheonix Guard comparing to plaguebearers. Pleaguebearers have zero damage output - terrible weapon profile and 32mm base size. Their "strength" of a 5+/5++ was decent at the time, but is now barely mentionable. Pheonix Guard have 4+/4++ for 10pts more for 10, with weapons that do serious damage. Mortek Guard are insanely powerful - again 10pts more for 10. Even if plaguebearers were half points cost, is there any particular strength to them? They slightly more resilient than the average battletine, maybe?

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

The biggest gap for me was seeing the warscrolls for Mortek Guard and Pheonix Guard comparing to plaguebearers. Pleaguebearers have zero damage output - terrible weapon profile and 32mm base size. Their "strength" of a 5+/5++ was decent at the time, but is now barely mentionable. Pheonix Guard have 4+/4++ for 10pts more for 10, with weapons that do serious damage. Mortek Guard are insanely powerful - again 10pts more for 10. Even if plaguebearers were half points cost, is there any particular strength to them? They slightly more resilient than the average battletine, maybe?

I think the big thing about the plaguebearers is the -1 to hit in combat and -2 to hit for shooting that could be doubled up with the Lord of Blights command ability. It made a pretty significant difference for the first few months of the battletome and was particularly difficult for most armies to deal with. After that however a number of armies started getting rerolls to hit and bonuses started triggering on unmodified 6's, which pretty much killed the plaguebearers on site. The modifiers are still good in the right matchup, but they're very polarizing. Either your opponent has no answer to the plaguebearers and they gum up the lines for 2-3 turns guaranteeing a win on scenario, or they do have an answer and then you might as well not even put them on the table. Plus they can be a pretty negative play experience, having your opponent rolling dice for half their army and hitting on 6's for 4 rounds of combat until they break below 20 models is super lame.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Grimrock

[hughwyeth]

17 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I think the big thing about the plaguebearers is the -1 to hit in combat and -2 to hit for shooting that could be doubled up with the Lord of Blights command ability. It made a pretty significant difference for the first few months of the battletome and was particularly difficult for most armies to deal with. After that however a number of armies started getting rerolls to hit and bonuses started triggering on unmodified 6's, which pretty much killed the plaguebearers on site. The modifiers are still good in the right matchup, but they're very polarizing. Either your opponent has no answer to the plaguebearers and they gum up the lines for 2-3 turns guaranteeing a win on scenario, or they do have an answer and then you might as well not even put them on the table. Plus they can be a pretty negative play experience, having your opponent rolling dice for half their army and hitting on 6's for 4 rounds of combat until they break below 20 models is super lame.

Right, but you'd want 30 PBs with LoB, costing 460 points to slow down 1 enemy unit, which PBs will never manage to take off the table. It's a huge cost and only worth it against a super-high cost unit. 

[Grimrock]

6 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

Right, but you'd want 30 PBs with LoB, costing 460 points to slow down 1 enemy unit, which PBs will never manage to take off the table. It's a huge cost and only worth it against a super-high cost unit. 

Well it's not like the Lord of Blights is only there for the plaguebearers, he's there for the Blight Cyst. It's like I said, it depends if your opponent has a counter to it or not.  When my opponent doesn't have a counter the plaguebearers can tie up far more than one unit. In one game I've had them tie up almost an entire army for 2 full rounds by charging the front line units first turn and forcing the slower units to work their way around the blob. That's really rare these days though, usually armies either have access to enough magic to burn them down below 20 models in one phase or enough buffs/mortal wounds to not care about the -2 to hit. The frequency of the counters have become high enough that I wouldn't really bother with them anymore, but they definitely had a place at one point.

Maybe if the universal locus in the new book gives all daemons rend -1 or something they might be more viable? If it stays the same as the wrath of the everchosen book (reduce enemy rend by 1) they're definitely going to need a few buffs or a huge price decrease to be viable.

[hughwyeth]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

Well it's not like the Lord of Blights is only there for the plaguebearers, he's there for the Blight Cyst. It's like I said, it depends if your opponent has a counter to it or not.  When my opponent doesn't have a counter the plaguebearers can tie up far more than one unit. In one game I've had them tie up almost an entire army for 2 full rounds by charging the front line units first turn and forcing the slower units to work their way around the blob. That's really rare these days though, usually armies either have access to enough magic to burn them down below 20 models in one phase or enough buffs/mortal wounds to not care about the -2 to hit. The frequency of the counters have become high enough that I wouldn't really bother with them anymore, but they definitely had a place at one point.

Maybe if the universal locus in the new book gives all daemons rend -1 or something they might be more viable? If it stays the same as the wrath of the everchosen book (reduce enemy rend by 1) they're definitely going to need a few buffs or a huge price decrease to be viable.

I mean i still love Nurgle, it's just they don't have any of the tools that would really help. The wheel is actually pretty powerful, more so than most allegiance abilities. But we don't have all the extra bits, and most of our units don't stand up. My initial Nurgle list included 2x30 PBs, so i definitely agree they're good!

I think there's an opportunity to really put Nurgle narrative into the rules- make them more resilient, make the weapons feel like they're absolutely filthy and contaminated with plague. 

[peasant]

On 6/29/2020 at 1:08 PM, hughwyeth said:

The biggest gap for me was seeing the warscrolls for Mortek Guard and Pheonix Guard comparing to plaguebearers. Pleaguebearers have zero damage output - terrible weapon profile and 32mm base size. Their "strength" of a 5+/5++ was decent at the time, but is now barely mentionable. Pheonix Guard have 4+/4++ for 10pts more for 10, with weapons that do serious damage. Mortek Guard are insanely powerful - again 10pts more for 10. Even if plaguebearers were half points cost, is there any particular strength to them? They slightly more resilient than the average battletine, maybe?

You nailed It! The problem with plaguebearers even at 50 pts wont work. I suffered a Game against bonereapers and plaguebearers and Guo was a joke

[hughwyeth]

12 minutes ago, peasant said:

You nailed It! The problem with plaguebearers even at 50 pts wont work. I suffered a Game against bonereapers and plaguebearers and Guo was a joke

Same experience dude. nagash, 10 horsies and 20 skellies and plaguebearers have zero response. They're on 32mm bases, they're 120pts for 10. Make them -1 to hit in combat base, -2 if 20+. -2 to shooting base. The whole nurgle thing is resilience. Give them 3+/5+- even then they'd be only similar to pheonix guard, and without their damage output!

[Dolio]

I wouldn't be surprised if Maggoth lords came down 20pts.. obviously changes nothing.. 

Would be significant if HoD command ability was free and not a CP sink but I don't see that changing until new tome

The tree etc all needs changing to only affect friendly Nurgle units.. Since we get screwed against pestilens, nurgle s2d etc

[peasant]

Good news at last!

Putrids drop points

Edited July 2, 2020 by peasant

[hughwyeth]

17 minutes ago, peasant said:

Good news at last!

Putrids drop points

Good news, but please please make PBs like 30% less at least. 

[hurben]

1 minute ago, hughwyeth said:

Good news, but please please make PBs like 30% less at least. 

they'll certainly drop at 140 no more.

[peasant]

2 hours ago, hurben said:

they'll certainly drop at 140 no more.i 

I think he is referring plaguebearers

[hurben]

12 minutes ago, peasant said:

I think he is referring plaguebearers

Perhaps, same letters  
Btw, for the plaguebearers (if they change the points) I can't see them at the same level than 3 nurglings 😅

[Grimrock]

48 minutes ago, hurben said:

Perhaps, same letters  
Btw, for the plaguebearers (if they change the points) I can't see them at the same level than 3 nurglings 😅

Well I'd hope that nurglings drop too haha. 60 points seems about right for them, maybe 50 if GW wants to get aggressive. 

[peasant]

8 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Well I'd hope that nurglings drop too haha. 60 points seems about right for them, maybe 50 if GW wants to get aggressive. 

Not even then! They are useless but to Camp in an objective and pray for 1s in morale checks.

My last Game 2x30 plaguebearers got to charge Arkham in open field... Only 2 wounds. Embarrasing

[hughwyeth]

2 hours ago, hurben said:

Perhaps, same letters  
Btw, for the plaguebearers (if they change the points) I can't see them at the same level than 3 nurglings 😅

Yeah i meant PBs. But honestly point drops won't fix it. The battletome was great when it was launched but needs a refresh rules wise. Lowering points still makes Nurgle difficult to play with and hard to match up with newer battletomes. I also think GW look at points for units they get feedback for. People have BKs, so they're lowering BKs because people are asking. No-one's playing with plaguebearers because they're hilariously outdated now. I mean compare them to Tzeentch's basic daemons- pink horrors- they're way way way more resilient, despite tzeentch being the fragile chaos faction and nurgle being the most resilient chaos faction. 

Keep Plaguebearers at 120/320, but revamp the warscroll. Make the save 4+/4++ to match phoenix guard and keep the non-existent damage output. Make the minus to hit available for smaller unit sizes. Then they might start to be useful. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by hughwyeth