AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion

[Deadkitten]

5 hours ago, Zplash said:

The chaos warhounds are a good call but really, do I care if the enemy is charging 81 wounds 4up and 5 fnp? 

Yes, I think you do,  There are so many units that can put out a lot of hurt, especially on the charge.  Still, it is def a thing.  You're asking a question.  Can you deal w 81 4+/5++ wounds sitting on this objective?  There are just a few armies out there that say, Yes, I can.  I think you really need to be able to dictate the combats and you want to have the first activation.

[Zplash]

54 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

Yes, I think you do,  There are so many units that can put out a lot of hurt, especially on the charge.  Still, it is def a thing.  You're asking a question.  Can you deal w 81 4+/5++ wounds sitting on this objective?  There are just a few armies out there that say, Yes, I can.  I think you really need to be able to dictate the combats and you want to have the first activation.

Hm any examples? I'm really curious what you have in mind here? I played vs archaon including 6 varanguards and even they with double activation etc don't dish out this much dmg... 

And yes I am thinking about adding the contorted epitome instead of LoA. 

Still 2 drops, reliable spell defense with 2 rerolls and important endless spell dispel + signituare spell is RR1 to D3 units which is required for your Blightkings. With the 4 plus you can have first activation... Still due to the low dmg output I don't think this is required... And either way you wont have many Blightkings in range to hit anything most of the time. 

You don't really think about dmg output here... Just as said defence defence defence... Adding witherstave etc... And hoping at the end of round 5 to have more objective scoring points than your opponent...

[Deadkitten]

11 minutes ago, Zplash said:

Hm any examples? I'm really curious what you have in mind here? I played vs archaon including 6 varanguards and even they with double activation etc don't dish out this much dmg... 

MATHAMMER!  Actually, no, I don't have time at the moment, but my point is that a lot of this is quantifiable.  And that I recognize, I might be a tad lazy for not doing it bc some of these might not be quite as good as I expect.  But off the top of my head:

Eels, FEC GkoTG or Horrors/Flayers, Troggs, Thundertusks, Witchelves, Bloodknights, maybe some of the new Tzeentch shooting, probably Hardboyz and Fyreslayers Hearthguard but I'm less familiar with them.  Oh and there's your Aarchaon + Varanguards.  I expect we'll add Giants to the list before too long.

It's not just the units themselves, but the full synergy of the entire rest of the army.  Also, they don't need to wipe the unit out, just take the objective.  

Don't get me wrong.  Your list has definitely caught my interest.  But there's more to the game than parking a tanky unit on an objective.  Point for point, every army has something particularly nasty it can do.  The BKs are just too slow to be able to dictate engagements I think.  This isn't an alpha strike list for example.  Given that, I think you need some sort of spoiler element.  You've even conceded the magic phase.  You need to do something to interfere with the enemy's plan bc most Plan As are to fight over the objective.  Yes, there are some matchups where a ****** ton of BKs will do that better but it is by no means a given.

 

[Deadkitten]

My take:

Allegiance: Chaos
Lord of Blights (140)
Harbinger of Decay (160)
Sorcerer (120)
Sorcerer (120)
15 x Putrid Blightkings (480)
15 x Putrid Blightkings (480)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
3 x Nurglings (100)
3 x Nurglings (100)
Blight Cyst (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 190
 

[Deadkitten]

Hounds are prob better than Nurglings and I do wonder if the reroll misses combo isn't better than the -1 Rend.

[Zplash]

9 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

My take:

Allegiance: Chaos
Lord of Blights (140)
Harbinger of Decay (160)
Sorcerer (120)
Sorcerer (120)
15 x Putrid Blightkings (480)
15 x Putrid Blightkings (480)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
3 x Nurglings (100)
3 x Nurglings (100)
Blight Cyst (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 190
 

No offense but I don't see anything which puts this list in front of 45 blightkings with epitome or LoA. 

2 Sorcerer for 240... without any casting bonuses they are just bad. Take the epitome for 200 and add a palisade for 30 points... 

2x nurglings.. They won't do anything for you except if you are lucky and can place them in enemy territory you gain some additional contagion points... (which I try to do with summoning, in 1/3 of the games even turn1) 

You increase drops from 2 to 4... Which is the worst change in my eyes. 

Also it hurts to see you slipping 2 times the max bonus for 20 blightkings, in fact you swapping 2 nurglings vs 10 blightkings. 

You feel it's a slow army? I don't know with fixed 6 run in blessed sons and plus 1 to run and charge and a good positioned tree I don't feel to bad about our speed. 

RR misses vs - 1rend, you talking about plague cyst VS blight cyst? If so I can very easily tell you that the - 1 rend is in 90% of the cases better. Alone because you don't need the hero within 3 of them to have the ability like it is in the plague cyst. 

Math hammer yeah I was hoping a little bit you show us something. I'm pretty sure there is nothing/not to much out there which deals that much dmg. The real deal will be to keep the Harbinger save and the blightkings within 7

Taking the objectives without killing blightkings, yeah that's an option but most other horde units will lose a fight VS the blightkings due to 5 save or something. Only mortek guard is a problem but you should be able to block them outside 6 due to no teleport or run and charge ability. 

Sorry a lot of theory hammer here and I will stop it now

I totally understand that this isn't a S tier army or that it is appealing to play with/against. But man at least it's very nice looking on the board with 45 big kings 😍

[Grimrock]

8 hours ago, Zplash said:

Hm dont think you need a screen. You will take turn 1 and run on objectives with harbinger command. LoB command I would only use if a Blightking blob is in combat with a big shooting unit. Otherwise it's not worth the CP. 

The chaos warhounds are a good call but really, do I care if the enemy is charging 81 wounds 4up and 5 fnp? 

Still the model count and if a good mobile player is tagging your 20 blocks somewhere it's hard for you. This is why you always want to take first turn and run them 4+6+1 on objectives. 

 

First thing, I'd i totally agree that the army will look amazing across the table. However I'd also say it's important to note that this game isn't just mashing one unit into another unit and roll dice for a while. I don't need to kill 81 wounds on a 4+/5++.  If I can outnumber them I can take the objective anyway, or if I can kill the harbringer I can take out half of their resilience. If I can throw in some models that are more resilient while also outnumbering then, again, I take the objective and I don't really care. The thing with an army this small is it reduces the synergies available to combat those different tactics. In addition, if the objectives are spread across the board you lose the ability to cover everything with your buffs, so the opponent may be able to pick you off piecemeal. 

You requested mathhammer though, so I'll try out a few. My favourite is blocks of chaos marauders. 40 marauders is 300 points. If we add on a sorcerer and warshrine we match the points for the blight kings, but we could probably toss in some more support to compensate for the harbinger as well. Possibly a khorne daemon prince which could turn those objective grabbing run rolls to a 3 instead of 6 and pretty much guarantee you never get a charge off, or a bloodsecrator allied in from khorne. 

Just for optimal results, lets do a bloodsecrator. 40 marauders can trivially get into contact with 20 kings. With bloodsecrator, daemonic power, and khorne aura (assuming a khorne general nearby, and you have no magic resistance so assuming the spell goes off) they get 121 attacks hitting on 3+ with a reroll for about 107 hits, wounding on 3+ with a reroll for about 95 wounds at rend 1. That's about 63 after save and 42 after your harbinger save. Almost half the unit exactly. The warshrine could toss in as well, which should cause the three remaining wounds to kill the 11th king. Assuming you use the remaining 9 kings to attack the marauders you get 27 attacks, 18 hits with ~5 explosions adding about 12 extra hits for 30 total. 20 wounds which cause about 12 damage after the 6+ rerollable/6++ on the marauders. So the marauders will survive the battleshock and take the point. if you've banked a CP that's great, but if not then battleshock will kill another 6ish kings on average. If the other player has a chaos lord nearby for double activations then the kings just die, but otherwise they lose to attrition in the next couple turns.

Alternatively, a ranged army like tzeentch or stormcast could snipe out the harbringer pretty trivially and then focus down the unit of kings that doesn't have the Lord of Blights command ability on it (you'll only ever have a maximum of one protected unless you forgo the harbinger save). If the harbinger goes down then 20 pinks with a few buffs get 60 shots at a 3+ to hit and reroll hits for 53 hits, wound on a 3+ for a measly 26 wounds, but if they charge after you'll spend the rest of the game trying to chew through the unit of 100 wounds while they control the objective anyway. Tzeentch can also get chaos marauders and give them +1 attack pretty easily, so take my example above but remove the harbinger saves and they'd be expected to kill about 15 kings on the charge. 

[Deadkitten]

2 hours ago, Zplash said:

No offense but I don't see anything which puts this list in front of 45 blightkings with epitome or LoA. 

2 Sorcerer for 240... without any casting bonuses they are just bad. Take the epitome for 200 and add a palisade for 30 points... 

2x nurglings.. They won't do anything for you except if you are lucky and can place them in enemy territory you gain some additional contagion points... (which I try to do with summoning, in 1/3 of the games even turn1) 

You increase drops from 2 to 4... Which is the worst change in my eyes. 

Also it hurts to see you slipping 2 times the max bonus for 20 blightkings, in fact you swapping 2 nurglings vs 10 blightkings. 

You feel it's a slow army? I don't know with fixed 6 run in blessed sons and plus 1 to run and charge and a good positioned tree I don't feel to bad about our speed. 

RR misses vs - 1rend, you talking about plague cyst VS blight cyst? If so I can very easily tell you that the - 1 rend is in 90% of the cases better. Alone because you don't need the hero within 3 of them to have the ability like it is in the plague cyst. 

Math hammer yeah I was hoping a little bit you show us something. I'm pretty sure there is nothing/not to much out there which deals that much dmg. The real deal will be to keep the Harbinger save and the blightkings within 7

Taking the objectives without killing blightkings, yeah that's an option but most other horde units will lose a fight VS the blightkings due to 5 save or something. Only mortek guard is a problem but you should be able to block them outside 6 due to no teleport or run and charge ability. 

Sorry a lot of theory hammer here and I will stop it now

I totally understand that this isn't a S tier army or that it is appealing to play with/against. But man at least it's very nice looking on the board with 45 big kings 😍

Regarding the Nurglings, I just want anything to stand in front of the Blightkings to take the first hit.  I have a healthy respect for combat armies and just cringe at letting them do their thing.  However, there is something to be said that the additional beef to the BK might mean that they can simply absorb the hit.  It's not like there is an "If Charge" ability they are relying on.  (I'm actually thinking a lot about this in the context of a 20 block of Pinks; how much do they really need a screen?).  As far as trading them for the max discount, while it is juicy, I decided it simply came at the cost of another tool that I'd rather have.  There's a reason those last 5 cost less than the first 5.  What can 20 BKs do that 15 can't?  To speak to your point, probably absorb a charge without a supporting screening unit.  I might need to just play it out.  But NURGLINGS!

I can see an argument for going no magic.  You do see it from time to time.  I'm not sure the other thing the BKs are doing here is good enough to justify it though.  This is one I'd need to play out.  I hate feeling behind in the Magic phase and some armies rely heavily on key spells.

I'm hoping the speed isn't an issue.  However, I can't help feeling no Gutrot is a mistake in both our versions.  Knife to the Heart is so much better with an infiltrating unit for example.  (Maybe I don't need those Sorcerers.....)

At any rate, I'm no expert by any stretch and borrowed the Tome to suss this out more.  As I've said, I do like the core idea quite a bit and I certainly appreciate going all in on it!

Edited April 21, 2020 by Deadkitten

[Zplash]

Yeah @Grimrock thanks for that example. That's a good one. Of course there are many "ifs" all buffs go off on marauders like prayer, hero aura is wholly within,  bloodsecrator etc. and yes that can threaten them. And I think all your buffs included there is not another unit capable for that dmg than the current marauders

Some thoughts from my side. First the half charge/move is irrelevant due to your 2 drop you always will go first VS std and run up... Sure as mentioned from me before snipping Harbinger is possible. This is why I favor the 20 kings because it's way more easy to hide Harbinger somewhere and have still 1 king within 7. What's so beautiful about that list, you don't rely of any casts/prayers or something. The epitome just messes up with some of enemy casts. 

Last but not least if you add the buffs to marauders, you can also add witherstave or rust fang to the blightkings and with the MW per dead BK the marauders should look not too good too after the counter attack

At the end no one can have everything and in my opinion it's sometimes better to focus on 1-2 strength and not try to be midocre at different stuff. But maybe it's also only me because my casts or unreliable buffs don't go off that much

Either way thanks for the feedback and good example!

[Grimrock]

35 minutes ago, Zplash said:

Yeah @Grimrock thanks for that example. That's a good one. Of course there are many "ifs" all buffs go off on marauders like prayer, hero aura is wholly within,  bloodsecrator etc. and yes that can threaten them. And I think all your buffs included there is not another unit capable for that dmg than the current marauders

Some thoughts from my side. First the half charge/move is irrelevant due to your 2 drop you always will go first VS std and run up... Sure as mentioned from me before snipping Harbinger is possible. This is why I favor the 20 kings because it's way more easy to hide Harbinger somewhere and have still 1 king within 7. What's so beautiful about that list, you don't rely of any casts/prayers or something. The epitome just messes up with some of enemy casts. 

Last but not least if you add the buffs to marauders, you can also add witherstave or rust fang to the blightkings and with the MW per dead BK the marauders should look not too good too after the counter attack

At the end no one can have everything and in my opinion it's sometimes better to focus on 1-2 strength and not try to be midocre at different stuff. But maybe it's also only me because my casts or unreliable buffs don't go off that much

Either way thanks for the feedback and good example!

Which is the problem with mathhammer, it's always circular haha.  If you say that witherstave and rustfang are in range to affect my units, then I can say the harbinger  can't be hiding from my snipers at the same time due to the 7" stave range. Oh but if there is a summoned a tree in the way then maybe it can hide, oh but then I have changehost and a spell portal, etc etc. Actually now that i think of it tzeentch might have been the better option because you can guarantee the +1 attack with destiny dice and getting the spells off is significantly less dicey there.... see now i'm stuck in the circle lol. In the end the only way to be sure is putting it on the table and playing it out. 

In my personal opinion and experience it's a nasty looking list for sure, but it certainly has counters and will struggle against a lot of competitive lists or varied scenarios. But thankfully that doesn't matter! If someone wants to run it and thinks it'll be fun or a good hobby challenge then all the power to them. Go nuts and paint your heart out!

Edited April 21, 2020 by Grimrock

[Blisterfeet]

Just did some quick math below, Its a 5 mins job so take what you will from it.

I think 20 Blightkings will probably survive the combat phase on average. Might even survive a full turn or 2 against mw spam, shooting etc.

I don't wanna wade in on the list Vs list discussion. I prefer a different playstyle but that doesn't mean 20 bk bombs won't post results. 

The key here is the 4+ save column (already added the FNP) and against some of the big hitters with only warscroll buffs (not added allegiance stuff like pluses to hit or spell buffs)

Edited April 22, 2020 by Blisterfeet

[Exirian]

Hey guys, new to the AoS scene here.

I was wondering if someone could advise me on my list building.

I want to run a daemon army mostly consisting of Plague Drones and/or Pox Riders but I'm not sure which hero to run with them to proc the Locuses(Loci?), since there is no herald on rot fly and i'm not sure if the Lord of Afflictions does work.

Also was eyeing the Tallyband of Nurgle battalion and started to wonder if the "Droning Masses" special ability allows for Plague Drones and Pox Riders to be returned to the units the same way the Wrath of Everchosen FAQ states that you can return them using Be'Lakor's command ability.

[Deadkitten]

On 4/21/2020 at 10:49 AM, Zplash said:

 

Either way thanks for the feedback and good example!

The Rantcast Twitch channel did a list review for Brew City Brawl in the US since the event was closed.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/610329209

There were 4 Nurgle lists (out of 35) that were variations on Blightking Spam + Harbinger.  This seems to be where it's at.  I played a remote game with a revised version of my list last week (I2 sorcerers + Gutrot Spume).  I lost, but just barely, more due to poor placement of a 10 pack of summoned Plague bearers to cove an objective.  It's a fun list for sure.  Took down 3 Soul Grinders.

[Hannibal]

On 5/1/2020 at 5:17 PM, Exirian said:

I want to run a daemon army mostly consisting of Plague Drones and/or Pox Riders but I'm not sure which hero to run with them to proc the Locuses(Loci?), since there is no herald on rot fly and i'm not sure if the Lord of Afflictions does work.

Also was eyeing the Tallyband of Nurgle battalion and started to wonder if the "Droning Masses" special ability allows for Plague Drones and Pox Riders to be returned to the units the same way the Wrath of Everchosen FAQ states that you can return them using Be'Lakor's command ability.

Lord of Affliction will work but he can not be part of the Daemon Battalions. The new Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince is a pretty good flying Daemon character.

 

The second question I´m unsure. I have to check later.

[Salcomine]

Hi, I am just getting into AOS and was looking for some c+c on my list idea. thinking of running a pretty magic/body heavy list. The ideas to fire units of marauders across the table hopefully with some buffs so they do some damage. If Sayls spell goes off they dump outside 9" but have a minimum 8" charge with the new datasheet so they only fail that charge on snake eyes. If his spell doesnt go but you got a moderately well placed tree they still have a move 6"+3" from guo, advance d6+1, and charge 6+1+d6", with auto advance 6 they are threatening out 23+d6".

 

[Archibald]

Hey Guys,

i am thinking about getting into Nurgles little garden and wanted to ask for your advice.

I love the Blightkings and Gutrot Spume and would like to build a 1000p list first. Later i would go to 1500p because we have a 1500p CTL tournament league.

My question for you would be how competitive such a list would be? And how would it look like? Blightkings seem to be the bread and butter?
I am on a budget, so your 45 Blightking list are not in for me.😅 I have Beats of Chaos and could field their Pestilent Throng Batallion?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Archibald

[Hannibal]

On 5/5/2020 at 9:51 PM, Archibald said:

Hey Guys,

i am thinking about getting into Nurgles little garden and wanted to ask for your advice.

I love the Blightkings and Gutrot Spume and would like to build a 1000p list first. Later i would go to 1500p because we have a 1500p CTL tournament league.

My question for you would be how competitive such a list would be? And how would it look like? Blightkings seem to be the bread and butter?
I am on a budget, so your 45 Blightking list are not in for me.😅 I have Beats of Chaos and could field their Pestilent Throng Batallion?

I don´t think it will be that competetive. I often play Blightkings in low points games against newbies and I have to say that you suffer from low numbers, no rend and unreliable number of attacks.

 

That being said I always advice to start with models you really like. That way you will have more fun collecting and painting the army. And with enough experience you will win games no matter what. Have in mind, that rules regularly change. What is garbage these days might be king next week. Nobody knows.

 

To come back to your questions:

Personally I´d start with the following list:

Allegiance: Nurgle

Leaders
Lord of Blights (140)
- General
Gutrot Spume (140)

Battleline
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (160)

Units
10 x Chaos Warhounds (80)

Battalions
Blight Cyst (140)

Total: 980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 84
 

THe battalion gives you more offense while the allied warhounds screen your force and offer some numbers and speed.

It´s a nice looking army! To learn the game it doesn´t really matter what army you field and once you will have painted all the models the rules might change in your favour. If you love the look and feel of such an army, go with it!

 

If you´re on a budget you can start with the start collecting boxed set offering 500 points and develop from there. If you like to run 2000 points as fast as possible, yes, you can include your pestilent throng, but there is no synergy whatsoever between the beasts and blightkings.

Also note that you still need a Feculent Gnarlmaw to get the most out of your army.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Question to the more experienced Nurgle followers:

I´m actually painting a Lord on KArkadrak. Which artifacts to use with him if run in Nurgle allegiance? Any advice here?

Edited May 6, 2020 by Hannibal

[AllanBallan]

I am a long time lurker here. I have played nurgle from start and have tried allot of different lists. 

Most problems I have with almoast all lists is that I have problems finding a proper hammer.

My latest list I somewhat like but it needs improvements.

I first present the list and then i will explain what, how and why i pick each unit.

 

Heroes

Lord of Affliction

General

Grandfathers blessing (move the wheel once per game)

Rustfang

 

Festus

Spell: Plague Squall

 

Rotigus

Spell: Favoured Poxes

 

Harbringer of decay

Witherstave

 

Lord of blights

 

Fecula Flyblown

Spell: Rancid visitations

 

Battleline

10 x Blightkings 

 

5x Blightkings

 

5x Blightkings

 

Other

The Wurmspat, (2x blightkings)

 

Spawn, Mark of nurgle

 

Battalions

Blightcyst

 

Summon pool

3x Plague toads

3x Plague toads

 

Reasoing behind the list:

What I like about the combo with affliction, festus and rotigus is that I can both use the combo with favoured poxes, rustfang and curse of the leper to give units -3 armor and combined with blightkings -1 rend from the battalion makes them chew through almoast anything or if i am at long range I can use the "rain mortal wounds combo" with festus casting plague squall, rotigus casting his signature spell and fecula setting the wheel to 5 each turn.

Fecula is my Anti horde caster.

But i dont know if it is worth it to skip a GUO with bell and loose the speed bonus for this double combo.

 

Any comments and improvements would be highly welcome

[Homer72]

Hello, for Hammer units i take always a GUO, 1-2 Demon Princes and Maggotlord of your choice. I will now also try a Soulgrinder and for Alliies always the Jabberslythe. This Monsters wil give you the needed punch. I think you can't have enough Monsters. With them  i won most games against Seraphon, Khorne and SCE. Try this vor that but first of all have fun  with Nurgle. 

[Hannibal]

29 minutes ago, Homer72 said:

Hello, for Hammer units i take always a GUO, 1-2 Demon Princes and Maggotlord of your choice. I will now also try a Soulgrinder and for Alliies always the Jabberslythe. This Monsters wil give you the needed punch. I think you can't have enough Monsters. With them  i won most games against Seraphon, Khorne and SCE. Try this vor that but first of all have fun  with Nurgle. 

I can hardly believe this. All your named monsters offer very low number of attacks. It´s a gamble, not a hammer. Compared to their points tag, GUOs just aren´t "offensive". And the Maggothlords are even less impressive IMO.

 

The only ones I have to agree are the Daemon Princes. They match the GUOs output for little more than half the points. Enough said about the GUOs.

 

Regarding "hammer" units in Nurgle I thought about the Nurgle Slaves to Darkness battalion with Chariots and Marauders. Chariots spit out some mortal wounds on the charge and the battalion make them spit out mortal wounds after being damaged. The Marauders are just the most dangerous unit you can get in Nurgle.

 

HTG

[Homer72]

You might be right and i am not the great expert but this was my experience this far and in the battles i used them , they worked very well. But i also agree with the marauders in 40 x blocks with Blades of putrefactions. But nevermind we all praise Papa Nurgle

Edited May 8, 2020 by Homer72

[Goldy751]

looks like a new nurgling is on the way ... could this mean that we will get a new battletome this year?

Its pretty much the exact same flute design and the fingers look exactly like nurgling fingers.

[Dreadmund]

My guess is that its a decorative nurgling on a new hero/new sculpt of an existing hero. A new sculpt for Epidemius is a big contender, as a character that is likely to have nurglings on the base and it is one of the oldest, ugliest sculpts in the game. Fingers crossed!

[hurben]

It's a question I've been given several answers to. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I'd really like to know if you think it's possible for me to, for example, sacrifice 3 MW to have +3 casting spell ?

Bellow the rule from GW :

Quote

Putrid Offering: If this model has a Bileblade and attempts to cast or unbind a spell, you can say that it is using the Bileblade to hook out a portion of its own rotting guts as an offering to Nurgle. If you do so, this model immediately suffers 1 mortal wound (which cannot be negated), but you can then add 1 to the casting or unbinding roll.

 

[Goldy751]

46 minutes ago, hurben said:

It's a question I've been given several answers to. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I'd really like to know if you think it's possible for me to, for example, sacrifice 3 MW to have +3 casting spell ?

Bellow the rule from GW :

 

I dont think you can take more mortal wounds for a higher casting bonus. its just a normal ability and I dont think you can use those more than once.

Only some Command Abilities are able to be used more than once I believe