AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion

[Gistradagis]

10 minutes ago, grucha said:

I wouldnt agree. I play gutrot with 20 blightkings and they do amazing things. Charge turn 1 is not difficult - simply use chronomantic cogs and have extra cp for potential charge re roll. Charge with gutrot first, if you roll 7 or more - great, if not - it doesnt matter that much. Then charge with 20 blightkings, with +3 charge you need to roll 6 or more. With re roll it will work around 80% times.

How many resources are we spending on a deepstrike that's extremely easy to screen out, though?

[grucha]

1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:

How many resources are we spending on a deepstrike that's extremely easy to screen out, though?

Even if your opponent will position his troops to cover his edges, he will most likely leave enough place in the front to not be able to cover objectives. It all depends on the scenario but I play gutrot since he got that awesome ability with the maggotkin battletome and I usually manage to come out at enemy's back lines.

[Olmdebil]

2 Questions regarding Maggotkin... is it possible to summon more than 1 unit per Turn? (like 1 Tree and then an nurglebase) and does the gnarlmaw tree count as "Unit" in case an enemy unit wanna do teleport ?

thank you

[Deadkitten]

5 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

Gutrot is a big trap.

I don't really disagree on any particular point.  I've never felt "well, this is bad" w Gutrot.  While you've convinced  me to soften the "auto-include," he is still a threat that must be respected and is a unique effect that covers a weakness.  Just bc that cover isn't turned into an outright strength shouldn't invalidate him.

4 hours ago, grucha said:

I wouldnt agree. I play gutrot with 20 blightkings and they do amazing things. 

That's a LOT of BKs.  I'm too skittish for that play.

 

[Gistradagis]

7 minutes ago, Olmdebil said:

2 Questions regarding Maggotkin... is it possible to summon more than 1 unit per Turn? (like 1 Tree and then an nurglebase) and does the gnarlmaw tree count as "Unit" in case an enemy unit wanna do teleport ?

thank you

Yes you can summon as much as you want, as long as you have the points. No, the Gnarlmaw doesn't count as a unit; it's a terrain feature.

[Deadkitten]

4 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

How many resources are we spending on a deepstrike that's extremely easy to screen out, though?

I think expecting a charge is too greedy.  I play him simply to mitigate the poor movement.  If he can threaten a backfield objective, then great.  However, I'll also readily accept a mid-field objective.

[Sneeto]

Which list do you guys like better? I feel they both have strength and weakness differences but I like them both.

 

list 1 

Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Artefact : Blotshell Bileplate

Lord of Blights (140)

The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction

Great Unclean One (320)
- Plague Flail & Massive Bilesword
- Artefact : The Endless Gift
- Lore of Virulence : Glorious Afflictions

UNITS
10 x Putrid Blightkings (280)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

30 x Plaguebearers (300)

BATTALIONS
Blight Cyst (140)
 

 

list 2

Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Artefact : Blotshell Bileplate

Lord of Blights (140)

The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction

UNITS
5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

30 x Plaguebearers (300)

4 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (380)

3 x Nurglings (80)

BATTALIONS
Blight Cyst (140)

[Gistradagis]

Just now, Deadkitten said:

I think expecting a charge is too greedy.  I play him simply to mitigate the poor movement.  If he can threaten a backfield objective, then great.  However, I'll also readily accept a mid-field objective.

The main problem I see is that objectives are rarely right next to a board's side, meaning you'll rarely end inside range of one. Unless you use his ability to charge, it makes more sense to simply walk your way through the board and position yourself properly.

However, the whole "from one side of the board" is the real problem here. Maggotkin doesn't have a reliable way to get better charges (spending more and more points on a sorcerer, endless spells, hoping you'll cast what you need, and nevertheless get a relatively difficult charge, CP re-roll or not is NOT reliable), so being further limited to a partial alpha strike that's really easy to screen out really kills us.

Honestly, I half expect half hope his ability can be great if the Maggotkin update (which hopefully will be here before I grow too old to play, but I'm not too hopeful since the Covid ****** has delayed all AoS-related stuff and we've already been waiting for over a year) hits and they don't pseudo-mangle it like with StD or Sylvaneth (good lord am I scared they'll Sylvaneth our ass). If Gutrot himself gave a bonus to charge (or gave the BK unit you take with the ability a 3D6 charge instead of 2D6), that would already fix this issue, really.

[Gistradagis]

6 minutes ago, Sneeto said:

Which list do you guys like better? I feel they both have strength and weakness differences but I like them both.

 

list 1 

Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Artefact : Blotshell Bileplate

Lord of Blights (140)

The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction

Great Unclean One (320)
- Plague Flail & Massive Bilesword
- Artefact : The Endless Gift
- Lore of Virulence : Glorious Afflictions

UNITS
10 x Putrid Blightkings (280)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

30 x Plaguebearers (300)

BATTALIONS
Blight Cyst (140)
 

 

list 2

Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Artefact : Blotshell Bileplate

Lord of Blights (140)

The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction

UNITS
5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

30 x Plaguebearers (300)

4 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (380)

3 x Nurglings (80)

BATTALIONS
Blight Cyst (140)

Probably list 1. Pusgoyle Blightlords, despite the 10p drop, are still sort of... bad. They work as a super mobile unit to capture/contest objectives, that much is true, but they have such low damage and model count that you'll then immediately lose the objective to practically anything. On top of this, Nurglings are nearly useless (despite being hilarious models).

The GUO, on the other hand, is a great support hero no matter what list you bring. If I can recommend smth, however, it'd be to change its loadout to Doomsday Bell and Bileblade, and change its artefact for smth else. The Endless Gift is kinda bad, particularly since it only affects wounds suffered the same turn, and the GUO already heals itself and is quite resilient. Either the Witherstave, or the Tome of a Thousand Poxes if you wanna run him as pure support, will give better results.

Also consider running the daemonic sub-faction of Wanderers, as it's pretty much better to both Rotbringer ones.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Gistradagis

[Warbossironteef]

21 hours ago, Sneeto said:

Which list do you guys like better? I feel they both have strength and weakness differences but I like them both.

 

list 1 

Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Artefact : Blotshell Bileplate

Lord of Blights (140)

The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction

Great Unclean One (320)
- Plague Flail & Massive Bilesword
- Artefact : The Endless Gift
- Lore of Virulence : Glorious Afflictions

UNITS
10 x Putrid Blightkings (280)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

30 x Plaguebearers (300)

BATTALIONS
Blight Cyst (140)
 

 

list 2

Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Artefact : Blotshell Bileplate

Lord of Blights (140)

The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction

UNITS
5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)

30 x Plaguebearers (300)

4 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (380)

3 x Nurglings (80)

BATTALIONS
Blight Cyst (140)

IMO the Glottkin isn't going to be worth it in either of those lists.  I dont think giving plus 1 attacks to 30 plaguebearers or small Blightking units is worth his 380 point cost. His spell is amazing but you wont get it off very often. 

I think you'd get much more out of his points with more bodies. Just my opinion. The Glottkin needs to be next to big units of BKs , 40 Chaos Marauders or 40 Plague monks. Than his CA is worth it.

[Sneeto]

You’re probably right that the Glottkin isn’t optimized with either list, but I already own him and painted him really well so it’s more of an include that way.  I managed to get him at an auction for 30 bucks!

With the GUO combo I’ll have 4 spells to cast, so hopefully my opponent won’t have 4 wizards to unbind and something with go off!!
 

Additionally while Glottkin’s fleshy abundance would be nice on the plaguebearers to soak dmg, his blades of putrefaction are actually the winner. Putting them on the otherwise weak plaguebearers make them good against tough tanky targets where they can fish for mortal wounds while tarpitting. 

[Gistradagis]

51 minutes ago, Sneeto said:

You’re probably right that the Glottkin isn’t optimized with either list, but I already own him and painted him really well so it’s more of an include that way.  I managed to get him at an auction for 30 bucks!

With the GUO combo I’ll have 4 spells to cast, so hopefully my opponent won’t have 4 wizards to unbind and something with go off!!
 

Additionally while Glottkin’s fleshy abundance would be nice on the plaguebearers to soak dmg, his blades of putrefaction are actually the winner. Putting them on the otherwise weak plaguebearers make them good against tough tanky targets where they can fish for mortal wounds while tarpitting. 

Blades of Putrefaction is super wasted on plaguebearers unless you have no units on BKs in range.

[Blisterfeet]

Going to try this out at the end of the month. Think the drops might be a bit high.

I want to try not be reliant on magic and focus on good obj holders and CA buffs.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nurgle
Lord of Blights (140)
- Artefact: Rustfang
The Glottkin (380)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (200)
Great Unclean One (320)
- General
- Bile Blade & Massive Bilesword
- Command Trait: Grandfather's Blessing
- Artefact: The Witherstave
- Lore of Virulence: Favoured Poxes
5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)
5 x Putrid Blightkings (140)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Plague Harbingers
10 x Plague Censer Bearers (120)
Blight Cyst (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 164
 

 

[Sneeto]

2 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

Blades of Putrefaction is super wasted on plaguebearers unless you have no units on BKs in range.

In a perfect scenario of course you want BK’s tossing out the dice with the buff, however plans don’t usually go perfect.

Last game I had a 15 ardboy unit jump onto my back objective with my 20 plaguebearers. Ardboys would mop them up fast but I got roll off and won priority, pivoted glottkin to go assist in melee with blades on PB unit, was able to get about 15/20 in combat plus his command ability, so 30 attacks, 6’s to MW helped a lot. Glottkin was able to beat some down too. I was able to hold the objective from the extra dmg on PB’s. 

[sharang2]

Some nurgle warriors and runeshields

[Riavan]

4 hours ago, sharang2 said:

Some nurgle warriors and runeshields

Nice. I'm about to try mine. But my colour scheme is going to be way lazier lok

[Riavan]

Just finished my demons prince with some conversions from the flies/deathguard

[meatpipeline]

On 7/16/2020 at 6:33 PM, meatpipeline said:

I need to do some math to see what average contagion point totals on turn 3 look like to see how much difference an extra tree makes.  I'll get back to you.

Following up with some math on contagion points.  This analysis is highly flawed (large number of assumptions), but can serve as a guideline for how to get damage via summoning (or not)... and I enjoyed the thought experiment. 

The goal is to get an idea of how likely it is to summon Plague Drone on turn 3, with assumption that this is the most damage output from summoning AND it allows for summoning on turn 4/5 to hold objectives.  Turn 3 gives the PDs 1 turn of shooting only, plus 2 turns of melee.  Summoning plague drones on turn 4 is considered failure.  The list we were discussion focuses on trying pull the opponent out with long range mortal wound output, then smash them with charges.

Other assumptions:

• Battleplan has deployment zones separated with a no-mans land.
• Summon the Horti tree on the first turn in your deployment zone
• Engage the enemy in the middle of the battlefield, first tree deployed near the middle of the battlefield
• Opponent blocks your first tree after their first movement phase, as they move into the middle of the battle field.
• Opponent can't get to your deployment zone until their second movement phase
• Opponent can't get to your Horti tree until their third movement phase
• Alternating turns (doesn't account for double-turn)
• Putting your units in the opponents deployment phase puts you out of position (per the list focus)

Note: summoning an additional tree on turn 1 isn't helpful for this analysis, because the 7 pt cost is always less than the 2 turn generation of 2D3.  Summoning an additional non-Horti tree on turn 1 isn't really helpful for contagion points at ALL.  It takes a minimum of 4 turns to recoup the contagion points ON AVERAGE (3D3 = 3 turns to generate 7 contagion points = 37%).

With these assumptions, you get the following points when going first:

• Deployment (first turn): 4+4+3 pts
• Tree (first turn): D3 + 0 + 0
• Horti Tree (first turn): D3 + D3 + D3
• Total: 11 + 4D3

Ana you get the following points when going second:

• Deployment (second turn): 4+3+3 pts
• Tree (second turn): 0 + 0 + 0
• Horti Tree (second turn): D3 + D3 + 0
• Total: 10 + 2D3

First turn of 11+4D3 is an average of 19, approximately ~19% of rolling 21 points.  Second turn of 10  + 2D3 is an average of 16, 0% chance to get to 21 points.  Both look like consistent failures.

To get these numbers higher, we can either:

• Deploy the first tree in a non-ideal board position... in the center on one board edge could delay an opponent block (D3 per turn)
• Move into the enemy's deployment zone as early as possible (3 per turn)

If we can get 1 turn of extra first tree points, that gives 11+5D3 (avg 21, ~60% of rolling 21 points) or 10+3D3 (failure).

If we can get 1 turn of enemy deployment zone, then 14+4D3 (avg 22, ~81% of rolling 21 points) or 13+2D3 (failure).

The failure cases (going second) can become unlikely successes (with great rolls) if your opponent doesn't pressure the Horti tree in your deployment zone.  The best place to put this tree would be the most out of place position, like an unoccupied board corner away from objectives.

Everything gets way worse if your opponent can teleport / deep-strike into your deployment zone and block the Horti-tree.  Even cutting off the 1 pt from no opponent in your deployment zone can be tough.  If you don't take Horti, then summoning Plague Drones on turn 3 is basically impossible.

So it looks getting units in the opponents deployment zone or going first are big deals.  With going first being a big deal, then double-turning when going second also becomes a big deal.  Playing aggressively into your opponents deployment zone even with a first / second turn charge into their deployment zone, your units would have to live to the next hero phase to get the points. 

The only way to consistently summon Plague Drones on turn 3 is to have units in your own deployment, plus units in your opponents deployment after the first movement phase.  The guaranteed 3 pts for each is incredibly important in getting to 21 pts by turn 3.

TL;DR... You can't rely on summoning points to get decent damage, even with an additional Horti tree.  In order to do so, you'd have to win the first turn (or double-turn on turn 2) AND play aggressively into your opponent's deployment zone AND survive. This assumes aggressive play into your opponents deployment zone keeps them away from your deployment zone / Horti tree.  Even poor first tree placement doesn't make summoning Plague Drones likely.  Without the Horti tree, summoning Plague Drones on turn 3 is impossible without sustained fighting in  your opponents deployment zone.  Summoning looks like it is only good for objective holding, secondaries, screening, or tar-pitting with things like Plague Bearers.

[Skarband]

Hi i need your advice i really loved nurgle mortale tell me can we make putrid blightkins army? I still be competetive? In my local meta we have strong armies tzeentch,seraphony,fec,khorne(5xBT) can i fight against this? how about gutrot and glottkin its good know?

[grucha]

On 7/28/2020 at 10:46 PM, Skarband said:

Hi i need your advice i really loved nurgle mortale tell me can we make putrid blightkins army? I still be competetive? In my local meta we have strong armies tzeentch,seraphony,fec,khorne(5xBT) can i fight against this? how about gutrot and glottkin its good know?

IMO Blight cyst is one of the two competitive nurgle armies right now.
Gutrot is a must have with blightkings, Glottkin however is not playable right now. If you want to go mediocre you could try him with marauders or plague monks, but definitely not with blightkings. You can easily compete with any of the armies you mentioned in your current meta.

Try one of the two (first is just a blightkings SPAM 2 drop, less mobility and support but I get better results with this list, the second goes with more mobility)

[Riavan]

Painted some Nurgle warriors. I swear like 20-25 paints/shades/dry paints were used just my camera sucks lol

[grucha]

2 hours ago, Riavan said:

Painted some Nurgle warriors. I swear like 20-25 paints/shades/dry paints were used just my camera sucks lol

They look awesome!

[Riavan]

So the great unclean ones flail doesn't fit on the base and had to be slightly off the side? That's kind of ******. I guess I can like use cork or something to make him higher on the base?

[Riavan]

Finished my guo (outside of basing - and magnets)

Trying to decide if I want to stick nurglings on.

[sharang2]

Update on these guys