AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion

[peasant]

49 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

Yeah i meant PBs. But honestly point drops won't fix it. The battletome was great when it was launched but needs a refresh rules wise. Lowering points still makes Nurgle difficult to play with and hard to match up with newer battletomes. I also think GW look at points for units they get feedback for. People have BKs, so they're lowering BKs because people are asking. No-one's playing with plaguebearers because they're hilariously outdated now. I mean compare them to Tzeentch's basic daemons- pink horrors- they're way way way more resilient, despite tzeentch being the fragile chaos faction and nurgle being the most resilient chaos faction. 

Keep Plaguebearers at 120/320, but revamp the warscroll. Make the save 4+/4++ to match phoenix guard and keep the non-existent damage output. Make the minus to hit available for smaller unit sizes. Then they might start to be useful. 

And add punishing mechanichs to reflect splashing ichors if they are hit.

Another thing I would like to see is mimic sylvameth Woods to simulate the garden if nurgle as the nurgle corruption infects the landscape

[hurben]

1 hour ago, hughwyeth said:

No-one's playing with plaguebearers because they're hilariously outdated now

I'll play 100 of them in a Munificent Wonderers host and Tallyband list in a decent tournament soon. We'll keep update everyone here  

Edited July 2, 2020 by hurben

[hughwyeth]

12 hours ago, hurben said:

I'll play 100 of them in a Munificent Wonderers host and Tallyband list in a decent tournament soon. We'll keep update everyone here  

Let me know! I find even 60 is hard to manage on the board.

[Gistradagis]

I think we shouldn't keep our hopes up for the point changes in the GHB. If the leaks are to be believed, then most factions are getting point reductions, which in a competitive game means that when everyone gets a buff, no one does (except against Seraphon and Lumineth I guess, since I doubt they'll be there).

Regarding our current situation, I definitely agree with the general sentiment. We used to have 2 viable lists: 3x GuO + plaguebearers, and Blight Cyst mortals. With the recent change in meta that favours magic armies completely shutting down the opponent's hero phase, I'd say we can call the first list as dead and buried. So we're left with our mortals list, which is super inefficient points-wise (not only are BKs expensive, so are all of their battalions), and will usually only work with a Blight Cyst and nothing else.

And let's not talk about how 80% of our battletome literally is so bad it sees 0 use. We're a faction with around 16-20 unique heroes (not counting general Chaos ones), but around 3-4 see play. Same with our units.

So until we get an update (please soon...), we're sort of a one trick pony. To be fair, we still soooort of work; I've won a number of games with my Rotbringer lists, although I fear this list might follow the other's fate as hero-sniping is gaining prevalence now. Lumineth will snipe our Harbinger, Seraphon and other magic armies will destroy him with MWs (even with our good anti-spell defence on him), etc.

So, yeah, fingers crossed that we don't have to wait half a year or more for an update.

[Well of Eternity]

"You cannot make more than 1 roll to negate wound or mortal wound that has been allocated to the model " =  Nurgle is not pleased.  

[Hannibal]

14 minutes ago, Well of Eternity said:

"You cannot make more than 1 roll to negate wound or mortal wound that has been allocated to the model " =  Nurgle is not pleased.  

Where is it from?

[BrocknerTheBear]

Guess this is to stop the 4+ 5+ 6+ madness some units can do as after damage saves so i'm assuming this means : take save roll - failed - take disgusting resilience roll 

 

[Well of Eternity]

19 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

Where is it from?

Leaked images from gh20.  You can make save roll and one roll to negate wound or mortal wound. If you have range to say: harbinger and warshrine you must choose one.

[Gistradagis]

4 hours ago, Well of Eternity said:

Leaked images from gh20.  You can make save roll and one roll to negate wound or mortal wound. If you have range to say: harbinger and warshrine you must choose one.

Oof. So the Harbinger of Decay is even less resilient than before, yay for us and for the age of hero-sniping that's coming.

Btw, where are you seeing the leaks?

[hurben]

I heard from a sure friend that plaguebearers are down to 100, GUO/Rotigus down 20, Glottkin down by 40, Putrid (120 or 130)... that's good news

[Grimrock]

7 minutes ago, hurben said:

I heard from a sure friend that plaguebearers are down to 100, GUO/Rotigus down 20, Glottkin down by 40, Putrid (120 or 130)... that's good news

Glottkin going down below 400 would be a huge deal. He'd make a pretty exciting ally for slaves to darkness or clan pestilens.

[Gistradagis]

Makes sense if it ends up being true that most factions are getting points reductions to get more models and such. If this is true, though, I'd hope for an even bigger reduction, because the Glottkin feels so overcosted to me.

[Blisterfeet]

Just remember you get a wound save then you get a after death save. This just stops shenanigans with 5+/5++/5++/6+++ etc. 

So you would lose your wound save for rend attacks but if you take the minus to hit plaguebearers get for example and maybe geminds gives, you can still get that durability that you'd expect.

In a way this might help with BK or Nurgle in general. As we don't hit that hard so people with abhorrent saves hurt us even more. 

I can see the frustrations as this was done to correct a wider problem but I am hopeful we will be fine with drops etc.

This is a guy with a full LoC army (just finished) and Nurgle army haha.

#eternaloptimist

[Gistradagis]

4 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

In a way this might help with BK or Nurgle in general. As we don't hit that hard so people with abhorrent saves hurt us even more. 

No, it's the opposite. Rotbringers are nothing without the Harbinger of Decay, and with the recent rise in MWs from magic and the like, getting his shield + his command FnP was key to survival. This change just made our key unit more brittle and susceptible to hero-sniping.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Gistradagis

[Blisterfeet]

11 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

No, it's the opposite. Rotbringers are nothing without the Harbinger of Decay, and with the recent rise in MWs from magic and the like, getting his shield + his command FnP was key to survival. This change just made our key unit more brittle and susceptible to hero-sniping.

I'll wait to see the meta pan out and what it's like at tournaments.

I tend to not let salt and quick judgements cloud my thoughts. Especially when I don't even have the book.

I think your confusing my optimism for saying that Nurgle is a tier one army. Also I won't be running Nurgle as my main army I'm on the LoC boat, Nurgle is my fun army. 

[Gistradagis]

35 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

I tend to not let salt and quick judgements cloud my thoughts. Especially when I don't even have the book.

There's no salt or quick judgement. If a unit has 2 abilities to avoid damage and loses one, that's a downgrade.

35 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

I think your confusing my optimism for saying that Nurgle is a tier one army. Also I won't be running Nurgle as my main army I'm on the LoC boat, Nurgle is my fun army. 

No I'm not, neither you nor I said anything about Nurgle being top tier. I simply answered that your point about this change helping BK/Nurgle was actually pretty much the opposite, and something that works against us. There's no judgement there to you, just how this change (with the info we have right now) affects us.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Gistradagis

[Gistradagis]

Edit: Wtf the web went nuts with multiposts, sorry.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Gistradagis

[Brodylan]

If those points rumors above are correct, then it’s going a long way to make Nurgle very competitive again. Would add in roughly 200 points to a list I’ve previously been running with success. 

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, Brodylan said:

If those points rumors above are correct, then it’s going a long way to make Nurgle very competitive again. Would add in roughly 200 points to a list I’ve previously been running with success. 

It really depends. The leaks seem to imply that practically all factions are seeing points reductions. If that is true, we'll probably not see much of a change. On the other hand, perhaps it's only the "older" armies that get these reductions. While I don't think it'd make us very competitive anyway, we'd definitely have a real fighting chance against the armies that have benefitted from the power creep.

[Blisterfeet]

7 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

There's no salt or quick judgement. If a unit has 2 abilities to avoid damage and loses one, that's a downgrade.

No I'm not, neither you nor I said anything about Nurgle being top tier. I simply answered that your point about this change helping BK/Nurgle was actually pretty much the opposite, and something that works against us. There's no judgement there to you, just how this change (with the info we have right now) affects us.

I think my point is that the changes are not Nurgle specific, everyone looks at these changes in there own little insular bubble. It's also only one rule and we haven't got the book to see the bigger picture.

The meta will shift. While Harbinger may not be used in BK lists, with point reductions etc you can shift your list to either just have more due to points or a different list all together not currently near the top. 

I am with @Brodylan and play enough games against the filth to realise this hurts them more than it does Nurgle. 

You will still have the 40-60% fat middle of armies and this squeezes it as it's a broad rule that targets everyone. 

I accept you disagree though and we will have to wait and see. 

[Brodylan]

6 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

It really depends. The leaks seem to imply that practically all factions are seeing points reductions. If that is true, we'll probably not see much of a change. On the other hand, perhaps it's only the "older" armies that get these reductions. While I don't think it'd make us very competitive anyway, we'd definitely have a real fighting chance against the armies that have benefitted from the power creep.

Will definitely depend on the overall points drops, so far the main points drops I’ve seen have been the older or ‘less competitive’ books like stormcast. Will be good to see how it all unfolds.

No doubt a major issue will still be damage output for mine, when compared with newer tomes. An underrated benefit of the old tome though is that so many of the rules are still ‘within’, rather than ‘wholly within’ which gives so much flexibility. 

[Well of Eternity]

Honestly.  Nurgle last advantage was resilience.  Meta will shift but IMO it will turn into more powerful hammers and armies with stronger warscrolls/traits. Simply as that - hard hitting units will decimate Nurgle even easier meanwhile Nurgle, even with more models on the table still have 0 hard hitting units (if you want to make blightkings your hammer you must invest into hero, artefact, battalion etc to give them rend at least)

[hurben]

9 minutes ago, Well of Eternity said:

Honestly.  Nurgle last advantage was resilience.  Meta will shift but IMO it will turn into more powerful hammers and armies with stronger warscrolls/traits. Simply as that - hard hitting units will decimate Nurgle even easier meanwhile Nurgle, even with more models on the table still have 0 hard hitting units (if you want to make blightkings your hammer you must invest into hero, artefact, battalion etc to give them rend at least)

But New BT is certainly around the corner in the next 6 months. Then, we can expect real changes and models like Epidemus or bloab, etc... playable again....

For example Epidemus warscroll is to my mind the perfect Nurgle play style. They just have to update it and give some more resilience to the army.

[Gistradagis]

1 hour ago, hurben said:

But New BT is certainly around the corner in the next 6 months. Then, we can expect real changes and models like Epidemus or bloab, etc... playable again....

For example Epidemus warscroll is to my mind the perfect Nurgle play style. They just have to update it and give some more resilience to the army.

Can only hope. An update for Maggotkin has been due "soon" for at least over a year now.

Imagine our support heroes actually see play, wew.

[Dracan]

From rumor thread.

 

"Putrid Blightkings     140 points

Blightlords                    190 points

Plague Drones            190 points

Glottkin                          380 points

GUO/Rotigus              320 points

Beast of Nurgle           70 points

Nurglings                        80 points

 

Orghotts, Bloab et Morbidex are staying at 240 points"

I always though kings where one of the best unit in the book even at 160pts... 20 pts off per 5 of them is good i guess... but bloab/Orghott and Morbidex staying same is bit.. perplexing...
Also dont think 10pts will cut it for drones or blight lords always felt they had to be sub 180.
The removal of stacking ward saves and all the realm artifacts will definitely shake up the meta, but i fear these changes are prob net negative and wont do much for Nurgle on the tournament scene even with slight point drops.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Dracan