AoS 2 - Maggotkin of Nurgle Discussion

[Dreadmund]

9 hours ago, IkedaT said:

Honestly, Nurgle isn't competitive right now.  In friendly matches, it's fine but anything where people are bringing the big bads.... you'll genuinely not win unless you're playing other "non-specialized" lists or the new guys. 

To fix it, just make anything that requires a 6, unmodified.  BOOM! better than a faction refresh.  Personally, I've shelved my boys until I see what Slaves does.  

Yeah this is exactly how I feel. It's annoying that we're soooo close to being in a great place. But I just don't see it coming any time soon sadly.

Witnessing the summoning mechanics of some armies I've never played really drove home how bad our summoning is too lol. Everyone I faced was getting points just for doing what they always do (Slaanesh: Deal damage, Khorne: Things die, Tzeentch: Cast spells...). We have to move units into positions that are often strategically disadvantageous, and strike the perfect balance of tree placement between "useful for movement" and "not going to get shut down" without knowing which side of the table we'll start on. Hopefully in the next book, whenever that is, they'll take another look at those mechanics. I do get the narrative thinking behind the rule though: we're supposed to spread and infect the landscape like a plague - so we're incentivised to spread out and "infect" enemy territory with our models, and then multiply. Do you guys feel like that concept is reflected in yours games though?

[Kevin K]

I played a list a year or so ago that I think is good and don't see other people really play.  It suffers from the same -1 to hit problem that all/most of our lists do so can run into problems at times.  I don't take a battalion because I didn't really like any of them.  I used the Aethervoid Pendulum but unfortunately that no longer fits so there are 40 pts to do something with.  The witherstave could go on either the GUO or the DP.  I usually put it on DP for the scenarios but I think those have changed.

GUO, blade, bell

Daemon Prince, witherstave

Sorcerer, Blades of Putrification

Gutrot

30 Plaguebearers

3 x 5 Blightkings

6 Plaguedrones

1960 pts

General strategy is to run the PB and GUO straight forward first turn to claim ground.  Gutrot deepstrikes with a BK unit.  Plaguedrones and two Blightkings stay back for counterstrike.  DP stays with the Drones.  Keep things in 7" of the GUO whenever possible until they are sent out.

Turn 2 (or sometimes 3) the PB retreat and the BKs and/or Drones kill something.

I typically use the GUO CA on the Drones and try (but usually fail) to get blades off on the Drones.  Fully buffed they are crazy but it seldom works out.

I don't see many people use the DP and he does mostly suck in combat (but will sometimes surprise you).  A relatively tough hero that can fly and move 12" base is amazing though in this army.  I've pulled off crazy shinnanagins with him and the Drones.  His high movement is also great for summoning shinnanagins.  At best with bell and wheel and running, he moves 23" and can summon another 12".  I did a double sommon once with him (tree then 5 PB off that tree.  That is potentially 47" summon.

Gutrot deepstriking is an amazing distraction and sometimes does some work.  I tried this with 10 BK unit and they didn't seem to be any better.  I did much better with MSU BK.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Kevin K

[TheVenerableBede]

15 hours ago, IkedaT said:

Honestly, Nurgle isn't competitive right now.  In friendly matches, it's fine but anything where people are bringing the big bads.... you'll genuinely not win unless you're playing other "non-specialized" lists or the new guys. 

To fix it, just make anything that requires a 6, unmodified.  BOOM! better than a faction refresh.  Personally, I've shelved my boys until I see what Slaves does.  

Maybe, but to be honest i think we need more than just unmodified 6s now. Even with exploding 6s we lack rend and damage output army-wide, and also our saves are pretty lacklustre. Hardly anything better than 4+ and nothing in our toolbox to give plusses to this.

Additionally, it would be good to have more variety of command abilities. Glott's is OK, GUO's is slightly worse, but 9 times out of 10 if you're running mortals you're just defaulting to morbid vigour every turn (if our battletome were written now, that would be a passive ability for sure).

Really interested to see if S2D shakes things up. (Hoping for Chaos Warriors with rend, plusses to hit and access to extra attacks, making them Blades of Putrefaction machines... Would be sweet)

[IkedaT]

You're probably right but unmodified 6's means BKs and PBL's become someone relevant to the army.  I'm not expecting top 5 with my simple fix.. just playable.  

As far as "infecting" I enjoy the hold different parts of the board mechanic giving us more power.  I think the reaction to the poor Tree almost killed the faction entirely for me.  I dunno, I've become very jaded about changes as all I'm seeing is power creep.  It's annoying and having been on both ends of the creep, I dunno.

[Grimrock]

I think beyond the unmodified 6s nurgle also needs some bonuses to cast. The spells are fantastic, but typically needing 7s means only the GUO can do it reliably. I'd like to see the tree give a +1 to cast or rerolls for wizards within 7", and let us place them after sides are chosen. Gives you something to think about for placement and a way to make blades a little more consistent. 

[Turragor]

2 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I think beyond the unmodified 6s nurgle also needs some bonuses to cast.

I'd prefer more durability and more reliable spells than any rend or melee damage bonuses tbh. Feels more in character and is a less crowded spot (I think?). That is if there's a choice to be made there. I don't think OBR are durable and pump out great melee damage with spells. However they can BUILD to swap the melee and spell damage (mostly thanks to adding in Arkhan or Nagash) and keep their durability.

Not got a lot of experience with Nurgle and am looking at OBR and thinking "hey these petrifex mortek really put pbs to shame survival wise (not counting the damage buffs)"

Edited November 25, 2019 by Turragor

[TheVenerableBede]

2 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I think beyond the unmodified 6s nurgle also needs some bonuses to cast. The spells are fantastic, but typically needing 7s means only the GUO can do it reliably. I'd like to see the tree give a +1 to cast or rerolls for wizards within 7", and let us place them after sides are chosen. Gives you something to think about for placement and a way to make blades a little more consistent. 

Rerolls to cast would be amazing.  I regularly play with a Contorted Epitome as an ally, and rerolling casts, unbinds and dispels is so good.

[IkedaT]

I dunno.  With the huge possibility of a Nurgle caster coming into Underworlds we'll see how they play out.

[Nezgor]

My list.

Allegiance: Nurgle

Leaders
Great Unclean One (340)
- Plague Flail & DoomsDay Bell
- Lore of Virulence: Sumptuous Pestilence
Verminlord Corruptor (280)
- Lore of Virulence: Glorious Afflictions
Lord of Afflictions (200)
- General
- Trait: Virulent Contagion
- Artefact: The Witherstave

Battleline
30 x Plaguebearers (320)
10 x Plaguebearers (120)
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields

Units
3 x Plague Drones (200)
3 x Plague Drones (200)
40 xPlague Monks (240)

Total: 2000 / 2000

[hughwyeth]

I realised I have the Epidemius model and was excited to make a list with him and then realised they changed his re-roll saves of 1 to a +1 contagion point. Like the whole point of Nurgle is resilience and they removed the whole increased resilience thing from him. Re-roll hits and wounds of 1 is nice, but our damage output is near zero outside of drones so it really means nothing. +1 contagion point is hilarious compared to summoning points from someone else. At this point, GW could triple our summoning points, reduce points by 20% and Nurgle still wouldn't be competitive I'm thinking. 

I'm thinking perhaps just paint all the models I like, like Epidemius, in the hope that a new battletome is on the way!

Edited November 26, 2019 by hughwyeth

[sal4m4nd3r]

Well I did well at an RTT Saturday in Annapolis Maryland. Very competitive players there. Several players that are in the top 25 of the ITC.  18 players at the event. And very competitive lists. I went 3-0 but I took second place based on secondary, and tertiary objectives. This is my 5th 3-0 finish at an RTT this  ITC season (LVO - LVO) all with NURGLE allegiance. 

I ended up taking this list:

Allegiance: Nurgle
The Glottkin (420)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- General
- Trait: Grandfather's Blessing
- Artefact: The Witherstave
Gutrot Spume (140)
Grashrak Fellhoof (140)
- Allies
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
10 x Putrid Blightkings (320)
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
5 x Grashrak's Despoilers (0)
- Allies
Extra Command Point (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 202
 

Strategy is to get the marauders bladed up and fleshy. Use those two distinct abilities to do what I need to do.  Either tarpit, or mortal wound factory. Because with the inherent +1 to hit on the marauder warscroll, Grashrek's spell for +1 to hit a target, and Glotts command ability, they have a max potential of 81 attacks rr1s to hit, 2+/4+/-/1. With the wheel on stage 2 and rolling a 5/6 for Barbarian hordes that's brought to 2+/2+/-/1. OH..... and doing mortal wounds on 4s in addition to damage.  OR 80 wounds with a 5+/5++ probably RR 6s to hit. Maybe RR6s to wound. 10 kings and spume come off the edge to threaten backfield, disrupt deployment, sow mayhem, force opponents to make poor decisions and split their forces.  Gutrot is surprising tanky (7 wounds and 3+ save) and surprisingly punchy. (4/3+/2+/-2/2) Other 10 kings are for redundancy. 

First game against Bonereapers. Focal points. Petrifix list with katakros, 2 units of deathrider cavalry, 2 boneshapers, 40 mortek guard, and two units of the stalkers. I went first, bladed up a unit of marauders, hit katakros with savage bolt for +1 to hit, and went straight at him. I rolled REALLY low for my charge and couldn’t get many in. Had I been able to I would have straight up murderer his boney ass. Either way I stole the middle objective held as long as I could. Mortek guard came in and removed the marauders. And retake it. I grabbed one of his side objectives to make up for it. Got the major win in the end. But the mortek guard and so broken. They do INSANE damage output. And can tank anything.

Second game against ironjaws. Pigs and maw crusher. On duality. He out dropped me and alpha’d as expected. Wiped out ten kings and 40 marauders top of one. I was able to chip damage on the crusher, keep him locked in combat, spume and ten kings came off my back edge as a second wave and took them out. I targeted his warchnaters and he conceded when he had no characters left on turn 3 or 4. Marauders bladed up removes a full unit of pigs just on mortal wounds. That was fun.

Third game against feast day FEC on knife to the heart. He gave me first turn. VERY UNEXPECTED. All his casters were out of unbind range and I had arcane terrain. Bladed up marauders, made them all fleshy, and ran them straight at 6 horrors, two terrorgheist, and the courier. Removed the horrors and took both TG down 1/3. Spume and ten kings outflanked as close to his home objective as possible. Made the 9” (8”) charge and basically had him split. The TG each activated twice against the marauders and still only got 38 even after battleshock. He summoned ghouls to backup his objective and flayers to threaten mine. But when the other 40 marauders charged 11” to reach the ghouls guarding his objective there was nothing he could do.

All great games. Going to wait and see how the slaves to darkness book looks but I like this all or nothing list as long as you don’t panic, and are mindful of unbind ranges and distances I really like it. This is my LVO list currently until I see the STD tome and winter FAQ.

Edited November 26, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r

[Eevika]

I still believe my list is nurgle on a competitive level. I have won against good lists like DoK and LoN and just barely lost to stuff like Ironjawz. 

Glottkin
Verminlord Corruptor
Plague Furnace

5x Blightkings
5x Blightkings
5x Blightkings

40x Monks
40x Monks

You could make this list even better by swapping blightkings for plague bearers and putting an endless spell like cogs in  

[Dreadmund]

38 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I still believe my list is nurgle on a competitive level. I have won against good lists like DoK and LoN and just barely lost to stuff like Ironjawz. 

Glottkin
Verminlord Corruptor
Plague Furnace

5x Blightkings
5x Blightkings
5x Blightkings

40x Monks
40x Monks

You could make this list even better by swapping blightkings for plague bearers and putting an endless spell like cogs in  

Some day I dream of playing a Nurgle list this promising with Nurgle models in it lol

[Eevika]

Just now, Dreadmund said:

Some day I dream of playing a Nurgle list this promising with Nurgle models in it lol

Rats are nurgle to me just as much as blightkings and more than chaos warriors/marauders 

[Dreadmund]

1 minute ago, Eevika said:

Rats are nurgle to me just as much as blightkings and more than chaos warriors/marauders 

I feel like you knew what I meant...

Why are StD less nurgle than Skaven? They have the Nurgle Keyword.

[Eevika]

3 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

I feel like you knew what I meant...

Why are StD less nurgle than Skaven? They have the Nurgle Keyword.

StD are dudes who can be given a keyword. Clan Pestilence is a bunch of plague spreading rats and always keyworded with nurgle. 

[Dreadmund]

1 minute ago, Eevika said:

StD are dudes who can be given a keyword. Clan Pestilence is a bunch of plague spreading rats and always keyworded with nurgle. 

I see what you're saying, but the distinction is less obvious to me. StD warscrolls change if they're marked as nurgle. They worship him. Aesthetically they might not meld as much because their design has to work for all 4 Gods AND generic chaos but the Mortal worshippers of a Chaos god are much more interesting to me thematically.

Regardless, I want to use some of those awesome nurgle models that attracted me to the game in the first place but that currently are in a very weak place. Spoilpox, Bilepiper, Beasts, the three Maggoth Lords, Horticulous Slimux, Nurglings...

If a Tree sprouts in the forest, but no Nurgle units are around to see it, is it really a feculent Gnarlmaw?

[sal4m4nd3r]

Im kind of on @Dreadmund's side here @Eevika BUT its mearly as I'm drawn to mortals rather then rats. I understand and LOVE the contribution the rats play... Ive never been much of a "skaven guy"

While your list is really good, competetive, while still being fluffy... pestilens aren't as "nurgle" to me as the slaves to darkness. StD WORSHIP nurgle. I see them as in some putrid cult where they perform rituals around cesspits that literally tear a fabric in reality and let literal physical manifestations of decay, rot, and degradation into real space. Whereas the great horned rat (in the lore) and the clan pestilens are tools in Nurgles toolbox. Pawns in his scheme to further his own agenda. StD are devotees to his philosophy. 

I want to make a display board where my 80 marauders are cultists that worship Glott. They see him as close to Nurgle as they can get and worship him as a false idol. He grants them gifts of grey-green excess flesh and weapons that ooze corrosive juices. As I use pox walkers for my marauders, I may actually strip the 40 I have painted and paint their tattered cloths in orange.. like prison jumpsuits. Maybe write up a story of a prison/jail left for abandon. As disease and rot spread across the population. This attracted the eye of Nurgle. When their cries for salvation, were heard they were freed from pain and captivity only to serve once more but this time for the lord of decay.  

[IkedaT]

Hmmm... they must have added a store since I left Annapolis.  I had to drive to Bowie or Games & Stuff to get my tabletop on when I lived there.

I'm not going to say that they can't win.  It's that they can't win consistently, ESPECIALLY in Competitive (greater than 12 player) tourneys.  A tourney with 3 matches isn't really a major one.  But it is a victory so take that for what it's worth.

And Skaven and Marauders aren't Nurgle in so far as they aren't even in the Nurgle book.  They're stuff that's brought in by keyword shennanigan-ry.  Which, so will the rest of StD.  I thought we were fixing NURGLE... not all the etc's.

I shouldn't feel the need to take a Corruptor but they're better than the GUO which is WAY better than the Glottkin.  Glotty needs a point decrease and/or a usefulness change.  He dies too fast.  Esp against people who know where to focus attention.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by IkedaT

[Fluxlord]

1 hour ago, IkedaT said:

And Skaven and Marauders aren't Nurgle in so far as they aren't even in the Nurgle book.  They're stuff that's brought in by keyword shennanigan-ry.  Which, so will the rest of StD.  I thought we were fixing NURGLE... not all the etc's.

 

Shennanigan-ry or not, marauders are Nurgle battleline. 
 

To be honest I find the discussion rather boring, it is just personal play style. 

Nurgles power waxes and wanes, we will be gettin a new tome eventually and hopefully shine for a while. 

[Wennberg]

As a new player I find it detremental that my "competitive" options are non Nurgle looking units. I chose Nurgle for the looks and love painting them. But the argument buy what you like the looks of becomes hard to swallow when the units are useless. I love the idea of tanky units so I was fully prepared to not do damage. My vision was a tarpit of plaguebearers that never dies. Oh, how wrong I was. However I am happy that I did not go menagerie as the GW employee recommended. 😂

Hopefully we get a new book within a year and by that time my army should be fully painted. 

[IkedaT]

3 hours ago, Wennberg said:

As a new player I find it detremental that my "competitive" options are non Nurgle looking units. I chose Nurgle for the looks and love painting them.

I bought Nurgle as my first AoS army BECAUSE Blightkings looked as awesome as they do.  And I have like 40 of them.  And they're just a mess right now.  So @Fluxlord is right, we're just in a pretty powerful wane right now.

[Fluxlord]

Yes! Blightkings do look great, I have 30 of them and not one of them looks the same. 
 

@Wennberg well I play a lot with blightkings and 10 blightkings with gutrot in opponents back and 10 blightkings with lord of afflictions/and or harbinger with rustfang and/or witherstave running blightcyst  makes a lot of opponents nervous at the semi-competetive tournaments i attend. Unless you get that nastry -1 to hit, then it is bad luck.....however, where i play i notice less -1 to hit lists and my blightkings shine.

[Eevika]

14 hours ago, IkedaT said:

I shouldn't feel the need to take a Corruptor but they're better than the GUO which is WAY better than the Glottkin.  Glotty needs a point decrease and/or a usefulness change.  He dies too fast.  Esp against people who know where to focus attention.

 

I agree that Glottkin needs points decrease but he is a really strong buff unit when protected and played in a list that benefits from his abilities well.

[hughwyeth]

46 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I agree that Glottkin needs points decrease but he is a really strong buff unit when protected and played in a list that benefits from his abilities well.

His spell is one of the best in the game, but with zero bonus to cast you're getting it off like 1/4 the time. His command ability is good, but doesn't really play to Nurgle strengths. He's one of the few good combat units we have though!