AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, Paniere said:

Would be lovely but LoC  can not teleport via changehost

You break my heart. But thanks for clarifying. I guess he's just an enabler not a doer.

 

Either way I think I'm still more on the LoC and make it more of a choice between the two of them. LoC let's you do fancy stuff and army buff. Kairos gives you +1 destiny die and +1 spell cast. 

[Gwendar]

I had to cancel my game today, so figured I would post up what I'm currently wracking my brain with since I have nothing to do for a bit.

I really liked the direction of the Flamer spam lists, but I'm stuck between wanting more magic and still keeping relevant shooting. However, f I wanted to run Summoners Guild in this manner, I would be looking at 600 points of Horrors for BL (or 2 and 1 Acolyte unit to save 100 points) and at that point I have a hard time fitting in any Endless Spells. I think Summoners Guild might actually be a good choice if not running a battalion so you don't have any tax to worry about and can simply load up on Wizards in order to generate those Fate Points as quickly as possible.

Anyway, for my take on Magic\Flamer Shooting (and no, WSB isn't updated... I just manually edit 😅

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Host: The Eternal Conflagration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Coruscating Flames (Forced trait, Daemons -1 to hit wholly within 12") 
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability (+1 to wound to Daemons wholly within 9")
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Herald of Tzeentch (120)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame (Forced artifact, 3+ W\MW reflection from melee)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (240)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (240)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 76

1 Drop. Scribes for RR's or getting off Firestorm easily through the Portal while the Herald goes on BW. I initially had thoughts of a Changeling over the Herald (where I would Swap the BW out for a Pendulum) but wasn't 100% if I liked that as much.. the issue would mean the LoC would be forced to give up Aura as the Changeling and Scribes are both unique. With the 2 teleports and high likelihood of choosing who goes first, you have a lot of options here.

You could:

• Teleport a Flamer + Exalted unit up to potentially wipe a unit (even without the +1 wound buff or RR 1's from CA and you're looking at ~18 damage on average against 4+.
• Teleport the Pink units to immediately grab objectives and\or throw out shots. Remember, Conflagration also gives the Horrors +1 rend so if they get their spell off you could be looking at 60 shots doing ~10 damage on average against 4+. (Edit: 30 per unit, just so we're clear)
• Teleport the Herald up the field, BW and then throw out 2 decent spells.. this gives you option to include something else to support him.

Or any combination of course.. but overall, yeah I really like it. Later I might write up something for Summoners Guild.. but I think it really has legs if you want completely magic dominant list. Anyway, curious to hear any thoughts.. this could definitely be tweaked I'm sure.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Gwendar
Clarification

[mmimzie]

15 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I had to cancel my game today, so figured I would post up what I'm currently wracking my brain with since I have nothing to do for a bit.

I really liked the direction of the Flamer spam lists, but I'm stuck between wanting more magic and still keeping relevant shooting. However, f I wanted to run Summoners Guild in this manner, I would be looking at 600 points of Horrors for BL (or 2 and 1 Acolyte unit to save 100 points) and at that point I have a hard time fitting in any Endless Spells. I think Summoners Guild might actually be a good choice if not running a battalion so you don't have any tax to worry about and can simply load up on Wizards in order to generate those Fate Points as quickly as possible.

Anyway, for my take on Magic\Flamer Shooting (and no, WSB isn't updated... I just manually edit 😅

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Host: The Eternal Conflagration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Coruscating Flames (Forced trait, Daemons -1 to hit wholly within 12") 
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability (+1 to wound to Daemons wholly within 9")
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Herald of Tzeentch (120)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame (Forced artifact, 3+ W\MW reflection from melee)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (240)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (240)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 76

1 Drop. Scribes for RR's or getting off Firestorm easily through the Portal while the Herald goes on BW. I initially had thoughts of a Changeling over the Herald (where I would Swap the BW out for a Pendulum) but wasn't 100% if I liked that as much.. the issue would mean the LoC would be forced to take give up Aura as the Changeling and Scribes are both unique. With the 2 teleports and high likelihood of choosing who goes first, you have a lot of options here.

You could:

• Teleport a Flamer + Exalted unit up to potentially wipe a unit (even without the +1 wound buff or RR 1's from CA you're still looking at ~18 damage on average against 4+)
• Teleport the Pink units to immediately grab objectives and\or throw out shots. Remember, Conflagration also gives the Horrors +1 rend so if they get their spell off you could be looking at 60 shots doing ~10 damage on average against 4+.
• Teleport the Herald up the field, BW and then throw out 2 decent spells.. this gives you option to include something else to support him.

Or any combination of course.. but overall, yeah I really like it. Later I might write up something for Summoners Guild.. but I think it really has legs if you want completely magic dominant list. Anyway, curious to hear any thoughts.. this could definitely be tweaked I'm sure.

ghetto commet/warplightning/chain lightning Fatekimmer (herald of chariot) with his new spell on a bale wind.  HIs range gets buffed from 9"  to 15" and in the book he rolls for 3+s letting him teleprot up and throw down an area hurt. For summoning points i also like the vortex because it gives you back a spell.  With it's own built in auto unbind you can unbind and recast every turn for another fate point. 

An important note for summoners guild is that it has that artifact that lets you ignore battleshock for units in range. battle shock is a big weakness to horror as you might have 50 wounds but it's waaay easy to get that pink unit to take like 40 models worth of death and die later to battle shock.  Which you'd have to be gamie about the artifacts placement if you have any ones in your bank ready to use on your pinks you'd want to use those instead. 

Edit: also damage wise if you wanted to pump number with horrors pinks are more effcient. as it's 20 shots for 100 rather than 30 for 200.  This mean  you could take a unit of 10pinks with 10 blues. for a total of  50 attacks and they get the +1 to hit for being a bigger squad.  Meaning you get to 3's to hit. moves the need on damage abit more, but reduces durability sort of. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by mmimzie

[Gwendar]

@mmimzie I had thought of the Skimmer, but ultimately decided against it.. as for BS, I try to include a CP when possible (I mean, I main Skaven so I'm used to being afraid of BS rolls 😉) but I think it could still work as I can simply deploy against T1 charges. Getting an extra CP on a 4+ isn't terrible either, but obviously not reliable.

Speaking of Summoners Guild.. threw something together quickly. Wholly un-optimized but may get some people more experienced with Tzeentch thinking:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Host: The Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible (Forced trait, 4+ CP gain)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Changeling (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar (Forced artifact, no BS wholly within 12")
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 69

Gaunt because he can still summon in more Pinks for free even in Summoners. Assuming all goes well, you have enough casts here to get 2 LoC's by T2\3. Probably not the most competitive so I would do this more for fun obviously, but hey... 2-3 LoC's on the table with Kairos is nice to look at.

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

@mmimzie I had thought of the Skimmer, but ultimately decided against it.. as for BS, I try to include a CP when possible (I mean, I main Skaven so I'm used to being afraid of BS rolls 😉) but I think it could still work as I can simply deploy against T1 charges. Getting an extra CP on a 4+ isn't terrible either, but obviously not reliable.

Speaking of Summoners Guild.. threw something together quickly. Wholly un-optimized but may get some people more experienced with Tzeentch thinking:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Host: The Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible (Forced trait, 4+ CP gain)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Changeling (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar (Forced artifact, no BS wholly within 12")
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 69

Gaunt because he can still summon in more Pinks for free even in Summoners. Assuming all goes well, you have enough casts here to get 2 LoC's by T2\3. Probably not the most competitive so I would do this more for fun obviously, but hey... 2-3 LoC's on the table with Kairos is nice to look at.

I would do the Darkfire Daemonrift instead of the Pendulum if you have it.

[Grotruk]

Hey. Can Kairos use the Ogroid spell for healing ? (not sure about the wording). It could be nice ! 😛

[Paniere]

48 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Hey. Can Kairos use the Ogroid spell for healing ? (not sure about the wording). It could be nice ! 😛

legit to me

Edited January 5, 2020 by Paniere
misread the question

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, Grotruk said:

Hey. Can Kairos use the Ogroid spell for healing ? (not sure about the wording). It could be nice ! 😛

I just looked at the wording and yes he indeed can. Very nice catch!

Quote

Choking Tendrils has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy unit within 18" of the caster and visible to them. That unit suffers d6 mortal wounds. For each model that is slain by mortal wounds inflicted by this spell, you can heal 1 wound allocated to this model.

There are more shennanigan spells Kairos can abuse... I mean use. Curseling's for example:

Quote

Glean magic has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy WIZARD within 24" of the caster and visible to them. That unit suffers d6 mortal wounds. Pick 1 spell from that WIZARD's warscroll that is possible for this model to cast and roll a dice. On a 3+ the caster knows this spell for the rest of the battle

🤩

Hello Nagash... I heard you like magic.

Hand of Dust has a casting value of 8. If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy model within 3" the caster. Then, take a dice and hide it in one of your hands. Your opponent must pick one of your hands. If they pick the one holding the dice, the spell has no effect. If they pick the empty hand, the enemy model is slain.

Edited January 5, 2020 by The_Dudemeister

[Grotruk]

Plus I like the 2 models, there are maybe better things to do with 560 pts but I'm sold

Edited January 5, 2020 by Grotruk
Mistake for points

[Sinfullyvannila]

8 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Reading you guys, DoT seems to favor the daemons more than the mortals. But until I read the book, I'm confident that a tzaangors army can do some nice things.  That is what I'm aiming to (especially also because I like the mini AND I can play them in 40K TS).

Now, another way to answer the firts question: "Do you guys think that T part of new box will be good starter for new T player?" I just have for DoT some daemons princes, a LoC and 60 tzaangors. What did  I do yesterday? Order 3 (yes three) aether war boxes. Do some math: the DoT half is 54€, sell just one hero (easy at 25€) and you are at 54*3-25 = 137 (or even 112 if sell 2 heros). For 112eur you have 1 good hero (can be magnetized on foot or on disc!), 18 enlighten/skyfire and 9 screamer! that is just awesome. Just complete it with one or two SC and/or a LoC, you have an army more than bad.  This is a super cheap way of starting armies, and I like that. Same goes for KO. And you know what? seeing how good the KO part is (especially the superb hero) you can sell the KO half even higher making your DoT even cheaper.

PS: remember also that you got some nice hero (multi build on disc/chariot/foot) in the SC and you can even kitshat a bit some tzangoors on disc to make a shaman on disc!!

It’s actually entirely the unit composition that you get with the SC boxes. You get 1 battleline and 2 conditional battleline units, then 2 different options for a Leader unit, and all the support you need for your Flamers other than the Burning Head endless spell. You have all the models you need for a really solid 1k list.

The Aether War box  is just a bunch of units that look cool and have no synergy and no battleline choices. So you’re spending at least 80 more dollars(Kairic Acolytes and a Tzaangor Shaman) to get a playable list, probably and probably another 160(2 Tzaangors and 2 boxes of spawns to actually take advantage of the Magister ) to make a solid list.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Smashin']

9 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The Aether War box  is just a bunch of units that look cool and have no synergy and no battleline choices. So you’re spending at least 80 more dollars(Kairic Acolytes and a Tzaangor Shaman) to get a playable list, probably and probably another 160(2 Tzaangors and 2 boxes of spawns to actually take advantage of the Magister ) to make a solid list.

You can probably just swap out the Magister's head for a spare Tzaangor one from the enlightened sets to give yourself a unique Tzaangor shaman if you wanted synergy straight from the box, not sure how well it would fit on that body but it's an idea.

[Aeryenn]

I haven't seen Tzeentch Battletome review so sorry for my ignorance but since I ordered Aether-war for Kharadron Overlords I wanted to ask if it is possible now to build a 2k Tzeentch army without Horrors that is playable. Always liked Arcanites, Tzaangors and LoC, not that much horrors. 

[Magnus The Blue]

2 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I haven't seen Tzeentch Battletome review so sorry for my ignorance but since I ordered Aether-war for Kharadron Overlords I wanted to ask if it is possible now to build a 2k Tzeentch army without Horrors that is playable. Always liked Arcanites, Tzaangors and LoC, not that much horrors. 

Absolutely, you can now also get Flamers or Screamers as Battleline if you want.  Also, don't forget you can use the Beasts of Chaos Tzeetch Battalion if you want to get Tzeetch bestigors, Gors, Dragon Orgors etc! 

Horrors are a solid unit but far from essential.

[MitGas]

Quote

Glean magic has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy WIZARD within 24" of the caster and visible to them. That unit suffers d6 mortal wounds. Pick 1 spell from that WIZARD's warscroll that is possible for this model to cast and roll a dice. On a 3+ the caster knows this spell for the rest of the battle

Where is this new version of Glean Magic found? The new battletome doesn't have it in the Curseling's warscroll?

[DaftSkunk]

47 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Where is this new version of Glean Magic found? The new battletome doesn't have it in the Curseling's warscroll?

Another poster mentioned The Dark Artisan has a pretty high resolution battletome review. There you can read at 42:32 that the new version of Glean Magic doesn't deal any damage. It's: CV 3, 24" range, enemy wizard. Pick 1 Spell from that wizards warscroll, on 3+ the Curseling learns it.

So better than before (I think he had to beat the CV of the stolen spell to learn it?), but not a wizard sniper.

What I'd like to know is, whether "pick a spell from that wizards warscroll" means that you can't get the extra faction-lore spell that the wizard knows. It'd be weird if you couldn't but the way I read it, you can't?

Edited January 6, 2020 by DaftSkunk

[Smashin']

43 minutes ago, DaftSkunk said:

What I'd like to know is, whether "pick a spell from that wizards warscroll" means that you can't get the extra faction-lore spell that the wizard knows. It'd be weird if you couldn't but the way I read it, you can't?

This is correct, as they mention warscroll specifically you can only learn spells shown on the target Wizard's warscroll, for example when facing Bonereapers you can target a Boneshaper to learn Shard-storm (should be named BONESTORM) but not protection of Nagash or whatever else that wizard knows from their faction spell lore.

However if they've kept the Curseling's Vessel of Chaos rule you can attempt to cast whatever you unbind including lore spells (Only to be attempted as soon as it's unbound, you don't learn it permanently).

Edited January 6, 2020 by Smashin'

[JonnyTheKing]

Personally I think this is one of the more interesting battletomes we’ve had in a while, Tzeentch seems strong, not broken strong (Yes this is a good thing, shock!) 

Personally really excited to try out the Summoners at the some point when I have the spare cash to get another 2 LoC, but for now I’m looking forward to trying the Acolyte subfaction as any excuse to finally get more acolytes out is a good excuse 

[JonnyTheKing]

Just now, JonnyTheKing said:

Personally I think this is one of the more interesting battletomes we’ve had in a while, Tzeentch seems strong, not broken strong (Yes this is a good thing, shock!) 

Personally really excited to try out the Summoners at the some point when I have the spare cash to get another 2 LoC, but for now I’m looking forward to trying the Acolyte subfaction as any excuse to finally get more acolytes out is a good excuse 

Follow up, anyone going to experiment with any STD units in your army? Personally thinking of giving the Sorceror on Manticore a try as the spell is nuts on it, also will be taking the endless spell that does more mortal wounds with more sorcerers nearby on him 

[GeneralZero]

First I'd say that I wanted a chicken oriented tzeentch army because I didn't like the horrors and even the daemons. So, my core army will be tzaangors. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can get from the battletome because reading from this thread, it is not the best time loving chichken boys! 

But don't forget a thing: the disc mounted miniatures are one if not the fastest units in this whole game. And I like that.

But,

- skyfire is still a thing for ranged support

- enlighten still hit like a truck

- tzaangors....well, dunno. I didn't read much about them and some synergies.

- shaman on disc: zero post about them...

- Acolyte...well, for now, I don't need them as I already have so many chichken. I'll see later.

- LoC/Kairic. I can't imagine not including one in my army, will it be at the start or from summon. In summon, that means for me going with with many wizards to get it soon (9 points).

- Pink horrors:  I don't like them but I think that it is difficult to ignore the free summon. So, at least I have to buy one unit (maybe 2) that make me buy also buy one blue horror box (at least phhhhhh).

Now, the main problem for me will be choose the heros.

- ogroid: love the mini, probably must have on par with the big chicken (LoC/K) to heal and have some CC capability/boost.

- gaunt: a must have, at least for the free pinks.  

- magister on disc: just because I have ordered the aether box... (will get 3 resell 1 or 2, magnetize to be on foot/on disc)

- changeling: I really love the mini, but I don't know what he is worth

- the other wizards: I don't know.

For pink horrors, I'd go a SC+blue box (giving me all I need, one wizard included in this SC) 

So, what do you think that I should add as wizzard and/or heros in a chicken list?

Question about Gaunt: is the one on disc a StD exclusive and the foot one a DoT exclusive? WtF did GW smoke? (Same wtf reaction for mutalith not being in the battletome!!! grrrrr)

Edited January 6, 2020 by GeneralZero

[AverageBoss]

12 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

For pink horrors, I'd go a SC+blue box (giving me all I need, one wizard included in this SC)

Question about Gaunt: is the one on disc a StD exclusive and the foot one a DoT exclusive? WtF did GW smoke? (Same wtf reaction for mutalith not being in the battletome!!! grrrrr)

You actually need two Blue/Brim boxes per unit of pinks. 10x Pinks will split into 20x Blues and then 20x Brims.

Both Gaunts have both the StD and Tzeentch keywords, so both can be used just fine in both armies.

[Magnus The Blue]

First off, both Guants are playable with both alligences (Slaves and DoT) as they have the appropriate keywork. In fact most of the slaves book can be included in DoT once it has a mark of Tzeetch (without being allies).

In terms of Tzaangor, I think they got a lot better simple because of the Agendas and to a lesser extent the covens.  Tides of Anachy agenda is super easy with destiny dice and is a massive bonus to big blobs of Tzaangor who often want to do a long range charge turn one anyway. Add another agenda the next turn for either +1 to hit or Save and you have a powerhouse unit. 

I also think the Host Duplicitous is great for combat focused Tzeentch and really messes with some armies (Rats and Lizards especially).  The Artefact and command trait are also rock solid if your going for a Lord of Change.

[CountryMou3e]

What's the ranged and melee stats on the new horror scroll now ?

[GeneralZero]

2 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

You actually need two Blue/Brim boxes per unit of pinks. 10x Pinks will split into 20x Blues and then 20x Brims.

Mathematically, yes but in game: how to kill the pinks? you erase one pink, then allocate the wounds to the blue (summoned) before allocate the next wound to the pink?

Example: unit 10 pinks: take 4 wounds. Do I have to kill 4 pinks and replace them by 8 blues? Or can I kill one pink, then 2 blues then one flame?

In this case, one box of blues is enough. In contrary, one box is enough....often lol

Another example: the unit is now for example 6pinks+4blues and got 5 wounds? how is the wounds distribution?

[Magnus The Blue]

You have to remove all the pinks first, then blues and finally Brims. You can't pick and choose.

So your 10 model unit of pinks takes 10 wounds: replace them with 20 blues. 

[Prometheo567]

Now that we are on a shopping spree, do you need a Tzeentch player should purchase the Beasts of Chaos and/or Slaves to Darkness battletomes? I mean if I intend to play as Allegiance:Tzeentch, of course. Any specific warscrolls or elegible lores that are only present there? Would you consider their Endless Spells (usable by tzaangor shamen and StD sorcerers I guess) to be usable?

Sorry if it is a stupid or already asked question.