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33 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

You have to remove all the pinks before you can start removing Blues and Brimstones. 

Well at least they didn’t botch the streamlining.

Locus of Change on them is kinda overshadowing that Pinks have a 1 increment worse save than before. I mean, the -1 hit IS better, but not that much.

They’re definitely still above playable, because they were absurdly good before; but people are super over hyping this iteration of them.

I’m actually pretty happy about the book overall. I was sick of Horror spamming, now I feel like I can do with just the one unit from the Gaunt Summoner. All the units I wanted buffed were buffed well and got a couple pleasant surprises(100 point Magisters). So at least I can get use out of the 40% of the collection I own.

Only real disappointments are the Screamers, who are still better than before, and the Endless Spells.

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I managed to finish and paint my Fatemaster conversion. I thought I'd post it here. Thanks to some of you who shared theirs many, many pages back. It sure inspired me. 

Some other random thoughts I've had... Horrors losing a save is actually less relevant than people think thanks to Brimstones now also getting a 6+ save (so from a unit of 10 Pinks, 10 of your woun

I have 6 counts as Spawns via Wyrds Stalking Portals. Great option for anyone looking to add to and diversify their spawn models imo.  

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22 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Locus of Change on them is kinda overshadowing that Pinks have a 1 increment worse save than before. I mean, the -1 hit IS better, but not that much.

They've also gained a 6+ FNP, so overall I feel they're more resilient, especially with the high rend\MW spam out there. I was initially all about 3x20 earlier, but looking at it I think 3x10 in any configuration is good for what they will bring to the objective game. Add to that using Destiny Dice or Fold Reality to add models back and that adds even more value. It gives you the opportunity to build around something else.. if you want to go heavy shooting, there seems to be an option both in Pyrofane and Eternal Conflagration. Combat heavy can be made too, though I don't think it's a great option.

All in all, my thoughts are this: I think Tzeentch is closely related to Seraphon in terms of gameplay. You don't have strong combat or shooting (though Tzeentchs shooting is definitely much better now, it's still no CoS or Skaven) but you are all about board control. They take good pilots to win games with and I think that is still the case here and I see these changes as mostly side-grades with some slight upgrades. Having 6+ FNP Horrors that are effectively 50 wounds to sit on objectives is great and if you want to run Changehost to teleport 2 units around (something that Seraphon can also do) then you have pretty great board control.  The issue will be if you're putting out enough damage to remove threats from the table to occupy those.

A lot of recent updates have seen some very resilient armies come into play (StD, OBR, etc) so it will take time to see what works best against the current meta and how it may be altered. I suspected Tzeentchs spellcasting to get a nutty upgrade (like, a LoC having at least 3 casts) after seeing Hallowheart but.. I don't really see it which is unfortunate. I'm sure I'm off a bit, but having played against Tzeentch a lot and seeing everything here I feel that's the right track. Time will tell.

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Ahh, yeah, FnP helps. Wasn’t aware of that. I wouldn’t use Fold on them; I’d bring in Emerald Lifeswarm.

I still think we lose out a lot on the loss of deepstriking our splits though; and keeping track of their points was trivial.

Like i said before though, still eminently usable, just not as good as they were before because they were absolutely insane before. I think 2 units are still definitely sufficient for the objective game, I’m going to try going down to 1 though; at least to see what the other units bring to the table.

I don’t mind that LoC only has 2 casts. I’m probably only going to summon him in guild of Summoners, and pay the points for Kairos.

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Having combed through the split rules, it's actually not as simple as "one is better than the other" IMO. New split suffers from the Blues and Brimstones taking wounds in the same phase that the Pinks die - if you're facing Witch Aelves or other high damage units, they can potentially wipe out the 10 Pinks AND the 20 Blues+Brimstones in one go (though obviously this is unlikely), and you can't summon in the Blues/Brimstones where you need them anymore. However, the change also means that your screening unit functionally multiplies several times and is thus an absolute nightmare for melee armies to chew through to get to your backfield support heroes (meaning, before they could kill the Pinks, get the double and charge into your backfield, now they have to kill the Pinks AND the Blues and Brimstones before they can get through, against some armies this is going to be crucial), and there's some hilarious shenanigans you can play with the Hosts Duplicitious' no-retreat ability with the new Horrors. However, there is one issue that Tzeentch players will have to be aware of - the split models must be placed within 1" of the slain model, and are destroyed if they can't be placed. If Pink Horrors get completely surrounded, you'll thus lose half of your split models (half will be able to fit where the Pinks were, the other half won't be able to fit anywhere).

Speaking of the Hosts, I like that the Tzeentch ones seem way better balanced against each other than Petrifex for Ossiarchs and so on. You've got a Flamer themed one which actually looks super viable, two Acolyte themed ones that either see them mutate into Tzaangors (a note, 30 Acolytes with the command ability active on them will on average mutate into 10 Tzaangors - way better than people are giving it credit for) or buff their shooting quite a bit, and the Hosts Duplicitious that seems to fit the classic Changehost archetype (lots of spell casting, lots of positional shenanigans). It's hard to gauge how useful the summoning one will be given what you give up and how different Lords of Change are compared to the other greater daemons (their combat stats got buffed quite a bit, but they are still mostly support monsters and can't cast spells on the turn they are summoned), and the Screamer one at least makes those units a bit more interesting (plus giving you a unit of 6 for free) with the free pre-game move (I'm sure there's some nasty tricks you can pull off here with units other than Screamers/Enlightened) and the nice command ability.

Overall, we've now got arguably the best tarpit battleline unit in the game for the points that is incredibly efficient defensively with the -1 to-hit Locus, our other less popular daemons both got buffs (significant for Flamers, less so for Screamers), Kairic Acolytes are looking like an efficient and strong battleline choice, and our shooting has been improved drastically. Flamers for example now easily gain +1 to-hit, can gain a further +1 or +2 to-hit against large units, deal mortal wounds on a 5+ back for every wound and mortal wound allocated to them in the combat phase (why haven't more people talked about this; a 6 model Flamer unit has 12 wounds, meaning you deal an average 4 mortal wounds back to whatever kills them in melee), have a Host dedicated to them where they freely get +1 Rend among other attainable buffs, and even dropped in points for good measure. There are nerfs in there of course but the warscroll changes (there's a lot, actually - mostly buffs to damage output), points changes (the ones that went up are fair barring perhaps Enlightened, the ones that went down are highly appreciated) and addition of Cult rules should see the book climb to different heights - instead of being reliant on Enlightened or Changehost, etc, other builds (particularly shooting ones) should actually be super viable to run now. I have a strong feeling Flamers are going to be very popular now.

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50 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I don’t mind that LoC only has 2 casts. I’m probably only going to summon him in guild of Summoners, and pay the points for Kairos.

Not a fan of summoning in most armies as I don't like taking along extra models, so I was largely looking at the same and like running with big monsters when able. Hell, my magic list for Skaven has 3 Verminlords in it. To me, it seems like something they really want to push as the summoning costs seem pretty high.. but @Jaskier makes a valid point with going heavy into Flamer\Acolyte shooting and running one of the other Hosts and I really appreciate that Tzeentch seems to have some actual tough choices for what to pick.

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Some other random thoughts I've had...

Horrors losing a save is actually less relevant than people think thanks to Brimstones now also getting a 6+ save (so from a unit of 10 Pinks, 10 of your wounds have 1 worse save, but 20 of your wounds have 1 better save), and for melee specifically the -1 to-hit from the Locus makes them MORE efficient defensively.  Additionally, the reduction in their range hurts, but Pinks and Blues actually shoot better than before if they're in range - 3 shots (or 2 shots for Blues) at 5+ 4+ is better than 1 shot at 4+ 4+. Overall, they do more damage than before albeit at a shorter range, are harder to kill than before (with the Locus), have a side-grade with split (multiplying screens is crazy good) and only went up a little bit points-wise. The Locus and Agendas are really nice buffs, even if shooting is back on the rise most armies do tend to rely on combat for most of their damage, and we can easily achieve a lot of the agendas with our Destiny dice and incredible board presence. Our spell lores got overall improved which is very important given that spamming endless spells is going to be harder than it was, with changes to casting values, an extra horde-clearing spell, being able to pick effects rather than randomly determining them, etc. Bolt of Tzeentch being a 7+ to cast for a flat D6 mortal wounds is fantastic. Arcane Suggestion is slightly harder to cast but can now target heroes and monsters. Shield of Fate got mega-buffed - at 4-9+ Destiny Dice, the affected unit gets to re-roll all saving throws - fantastic with the +1 save agenda.

The Hosts Duplicitious makes all of your units (not just the daemons) prevent enemy units from retreating if they're within 3". From everything I understand about summoned units and sub-factions, this should mean anything you summon will have this ability (correct me if I'm wrong, please - this is how it works for Slaanesh, so I'd assume it's the same for Tzeentch). Now, we have something like 3-4 spells that create Chaos Spawn within 3" of enemy units as long as the spell slays at least one model from the unit. This means you can place any Spawn summoned this way exactly 2.9" away from the corner of a unit and tag them, locking them in so long as the Spawn survives (which, depending on what army you're facing, can be really easy). As someone who regularly abuses 6" pile-ins in other armies, this is absolutely brutal, and combining it with the new Horrors (who are point-for-point possibly the best tarpit Battleline unit in the game now) is similarly absurd. I see this Host being the defacto pick for Changehost loyalists, simply because you can teleport two units of Horrors up-field to block your opponent in, then abuse split and no-retreat to keep them locked in their zone for a few turns (won't work against every army, obviously). The command trait from this Host also doubles as a half-range Blue Scribes aura of re-roll casting rolls, meaning you can save points and go for another hero if you wish (which, given how much cheaper most of our Horror heroes are, is a welcome change). and the +1 save artefact is nice for a Lord of Change (though in some cases probably worse than the Ragged Cloak). 

I also think people are sleeping on some of the warscroll changes, particularly the Changeling. Though it lost a lot of its utility, it's now a 2 cast/2 unbind wizard for the same points as a Grey Seer, meaning it's actually our most efficient spell-caster. Fateweaver similarly went up 20 points, gained a free auto-dispel that doesn't count against his number of casts per turn (for him and the Lord of Change, this is pretty huge, especially as it happens in the hero phase rather than at the start like normal dispelling, meaning you can do it on an endless spell you cast in the same hero phase if you so desire!), his spell does a flat 6 mortal wounds at the top bracket (this is incredible for hero-sniping) and ALSO went up to 3 casts/3 unbinds per turn (though Oracle of Eternity got nerfed to only work on the same rolls that Destiny dice do). Most of our wizards got big points reductions at the expense of minor warscroll nerfs (for Heralds, this is a win overall), Magisters look like steals for their drastically reduced cost, and the Ogroid now has a clear role (Tzeentch had no good ways to heal single model units before).

I wanted to just go over Enlightened a little bit, as I've seen a lot of comments about how they've been nerfed. Ultimately, Enlightened in Tzeentch were far superior to Enlightened in Beasts of Chaos, and they were still a very popular choice in Beasts of Chaos. They did lose out on synergies with the daemon keyword (Fold Reality is the big one), but they didn't "lose" the Locus rule - they never had the Locus rule before, so they didn't "lose" that; it would have been a major buff if they got that. However, the new Agendas and Host rules give them other buffs they didn't have before - the Agenda for +1 attack to all melee weapons if you make a 9" charge is incredibly easy to do with Destiny dice (even with the change to how they affect 2D6 rolls) and significantly improves their damage output. Given how you can basically guarantee success on that Agenda with them as early as the first turn, I think the points increase is fair. They're definitely weaker than before but they still look really good to me.

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For Horrors versus Acolytes, Horrors are still miles better than Acolytes for the specific role of screening (200 points of Horrors is 50 6+ 6++ (for the first 10 wounds) wounds that benefit from the Locus, 200 points of Acolytes is 20 5+ 6++ wounds that do not benefit from the Locus). Acolytes however definitely have their niche if you don't want to shell out for Horrors, or just want a cheaper Battleline filler (very relevant if you don't have the points to squeeze in 3x10 Pinks) - they're by far the better choice if you want to rack up Fate points efficiently too. Alongside Flamers, they're easily the most improved unit in the book I feel. Many of their old rules that were tied to specific models in the unit (i.e. the scroll bearer) or being near friendly Arcanite heroes have just been put into their base profile, and things like the scroll bearer now give them different buffs like +1 to casting and unbinding rolls (meaning even without other modifiers they'll usually cast Gestalt Sorcery with ease). Their shooting is overall better with Gestalt Sorcery active, and you can easily lean into it with the Pyrofane Cult As an aside, their melee is also a lot better too, especially if you can be bothered to model and keep track of the glaives.

Back to Flamers, I'm really curious to see how running something like 18x Flamers (or more?) would go - pairing them up with the Burning Head (for re-roll hit rolls of 1 without having to spend CP) should be strong and thematic, and it runs just over 700 points just for the Flamers. It's a lot of points and it's quite fragile but they are fast (with 12" Fly move + 18" range, hiding from them is next to impossible) and they look pretty darned deadly. One other big change that's super relevant for Flamers is the Aura of Mutability - it used to give re-roll wound rolls of 1, now it is a flat +1 to-wound aura (it affects both shooting and melee). With the buffs our shooting got, a +1 to-wound aura for daemonic shooting is a BIG deal, and it even has the side-effect of making Horrors that little bit scarier in combat too. This surely is a must-take for Eternal Conflagration lists. 

For reference, if you can keep 18 Flamers wholly within 9" of an Exalted Flamer with the Aura of Mutability and the Burning Head while using Eternal Conflagration rules, at 18" range they put out; 54 shots at 3+ to-hit re-rolling 1s (increasing to 2s to-hit against units of 10+ models), 2s to-wound, -1 Rend, D3 Damage. I haven't done any comparisons to other big scary shooting units from Cities of Sigmar for example, but just from a quick assessment that looks absolutely brutal. Under the new points, that's an 850 point combo, and that also includes 6 shots from the Exalted Flamer at 18" range that are 4+ to-hit re-rolling 1s (increasing to 3s or 2s to-hit against units of 10+ or 20+ models), 2s to-wound, -2 Rend, D3 Damage!

Just to give you an idea of what that might look like, having done some quick maths against a mate's highly competitive Hallowheart army list (lots of shooting, wizards, endless spells and Phoenix Guard), if I split my shots appropriately and roll average (which, let's be honest, will never actually happen - that's why this is just a hypothetical) from that death-ball above, I'd comfortably wipe out all of his actual wizards (so not the Tome carrier, but everything else including a Hurricanum, and even factoring in Look Out Sir where appropriate) and virtually all his shooting in one turn - that's roughly 1000 points slain in one turn, and the 850 point deathball only requires you to position your units wholly within range of two specific models and summon an endless spell (i.e. very easy to pull this combo off). Obviously this doesn't factor in a lot of things like being in range, not being damaged, turn priority, cover, line of sight, etc but just as a base-line of average damage that's way better than I initially thought! Whether it's going to be competitive or not with regards to actually building a list is the real question, though - especially when fitting a battalion in to get the Aura of Mutability (as the Eternal Conflagration has its own mandatory artefact), taking Battleline and support heroes. I'd wager 18x Flamers is probably too much invested in shooting, but for those of us like me that have wanted something different from the monotony of Horrors/Changehost/Enlightened, Flamers being this good is certainly very welcome.

 

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Thankfully, there's nothing that mandates they be in a particular unit size - my example above was working with the assumption of 3x6 Flamers, but you could easily run 6x3, 2x9, etc. Just gotta be wholly within 9" for all the synergies (excepting the +1/+2 to-hit against big units, and the -1 Rend), so that covers the +1 to-wound from the Aura of Mutability, the +1 to-hit for being near an Exalted Flamer, as well as the re-roll hit rolls of 1 from the Burning Head. Also just wanted to clarify a few mistakes, Flamers are only a 9" move (had Horrors and their 12" range on the mind) so they have an effective 27" range, and Exalted Flamers also aren't heroes so can't carry the AoM, need someone else to carry it up (I keep forgetting they aren't heroes, doh!).

I toyed around with trying to make a low drop list (still easily attainable via Changehost) and the fact that the Flamers are Battleline for Eternal Conflagration means you can save points and not be forced to take 3x10 Pink Horrors (though at least one or two units seem too good not to take). Filling out a Changehost is theoretically easier than before if you take either Eternal Conflagration (Flamers as Battleline) or Hosts Arcanum (Screamers as Battleline) but whether you can make an effective list out of it without running Pink Horrors is the real question. I really like the two teleports offered by Changehost and appreciate how much simpler and less gamey it is compared to the swaps, it's still a very powerful ability and there's absolutely some cheese combos you can pull with it (i.e. sling all your endless spells out, then send a Daemonrift/Purple Sun/etc through the enemy lines with whatever caster you teleport up).  Compared to other recent Battletomes, it seems Tzeentch still has a fairly good way of getting a 1-2 drop list.

@Lou_Cypher They lost it unfortunately, though I'd say all the other buffs they got more than make up for it.

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Sorry if this has been mentioned but Gaunt Summoners (disc and foot) have both the Tzeentch and STD keywords (and daemon and mortal). So they can cast STD endless spells(hello realmscape rupture) in Disciples of Tzeentch and have access to both The daemon and (I think) the mortal/arcanite lore.

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17 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

it's still a very powerful ability and there's absolutely some cheese combos you can pull with it (i.e. sling all your endless spells out, then send a Daemonrift/Purple Sun/etc through the enemy lines with whatever caster you teleport up)

I also appreciate the incredible ease of teleporting the Flamer units as described (may be worth bringing 1 large unit at least) with an Exalted and shooting a unit or two off right away... I think you've got me fully hooked on a couple of Horror units and loading up on heroes + Flamers for a magic\shoot heavy list. 

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9 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

also i couldn't make it out but it looked like pinks also have a spell on thier scroll they might able to spam.

It's a self-buff really, that's it. They can't cast anything else (even Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt).. but yeah, all Horror units can cast it even if other's cast it previously.

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45 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I also appreciate the incredible ease of teleporting the Flamer units as described (may be worth bringing 1 large unit at least) with an Exalted and shooting a unit or two off right away... I think you've got me fully hooked on a couple of Horror units and loading up on heroes + Flamers for a magic\shoot heavy list. 

Im liking the sound of this also. If I wasnt so lazy I would try to make a list but I almost exclusively use warscroll builder lol

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3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Im liking the sound of this also. If I wasnt so lazy I would try to make a list but I almost exclusively use warscroll builder lol

Yeah... kind of where I am with using Azyr or WSB. I may get one put together by tomorrow just so I can get models ordered 😅

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Love all this banter, it's solid. @Jaskier thanks for all your thoughts, i'm loving that flamer spam! def a lot to keep in mind because I am a Changehost enthusiast!

 

Question for all about the new Magister on Disc - Is anyone else angry that this Hero is completely the same - minus the disc and Save stats (from what I remember watching the tome review w GWG) as the Magister on foot? There's simply no reason to buy that box for that model as it offers nothing different to the other Magister, and he could simply be kit bashed by adding a disc and some green stuff imo!

I love that we got a new model but feel as if it was somewhat of a major waste of opportunity for them to update something else like the Blue Scribes model, give us a really nice new set of rules for a Magister that made it worth picking one over the other or just a totally new Hero in general, on a disc!

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4 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

No one is talking about the Changeling. He lost his ability to hide, which was kind of the point, but what sort of new tactics could be used with him now?

Hes is also now a 2 cast / 2 dispell wizard for only 120 points. That has value on its own.

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14 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

It's a self-buff really, that's it. They can't cast anything else (even Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt).. but yeah, all Horror units can cast it even if other's cast it previously.

what kind of buff like a damage buff? +1 to hit? rend?

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Just now, RUNCMD said:

Love all this banter, it's solid. @Jaskier thanks for all your thoughts, i'm loving that flamer spam! def a lot to keep in mind because I am a Changehost enthusiast!

 

Question for all about the new Magister on Disc - Is anyone else angry that this Hero is completely the same - minus the disc and Save stats (from what I remember watching the tome review w GWG) as the Magister on foot? There's simply no reason to buy that box for that model as it offers nothing different to the other Magister, and he could simply be kit bashed by adding a disc and some green stuff imo!

I love that we got a new model but feel as if it was somewhat of a major waste of opportunity for them to update something else like the Blue Scribes model, give us a really nice new set of rules for a Magister that made it worth picking one over the other or just a totally new Hero in general, on a disc!

I actually like that he is the same and that GW has been going that route lately. AoS has avoided having you spend points on upgrades (everything has always been free), and so many old warscrolls all cost the same points if you takes those upgrades (including mounts) or not. Lately they have been making you pay for that mobility on those characters with separately costed warscrolls.

At this point you can more or less imagine it as: a Magister costs 100 points, you may upgrade him to be mounted on a Disk of Tzeentch for +40 points.

Also, I hate the exclusive box set models (especially crammed into a box with multiple armies). One of my biggest pet peeves with their current business model.

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10 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

what kind of buff like a damage buff? +1 to hit? rend?

+1 to hit. It can be cast on other units, the range makes it hard.
 

11 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

There's simply no reason to buy that box for that model

I'm pretty happy if that's the case. I really dislike making models for these limited box sets and then saying we'll get the models in blisters soon but.. nearly a year later and still no Skaven or FeC heroes, others in the same boat for longer I think.

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From what I could make out from a blurry picture, the Pink Horrors' spell gives them +1 to-hit with all their attacks.

Yeah the Changeling seems like a no-brainer if you want an efficient wizard choice, it's 10 points more than a Changecaster (Herald on foot) for a guaranteed extra cast and unbind each turn, regardless of whether you use its' other special rules. Fateweaver being a 3 cast/unbind Lord of Change with a spell that does flat 6 mortal wounds at the top bracket (and some various other buffs, i.e. the free auto-dispel, boosted combat stats, etc) with the offset of not manipulating any dice roll you want seems like an overall buff, right? 400 points is steep but I'm certainly considering running it whereas before I had next to zero interest.

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5 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

400 points is steep but I'm certainly considering running it whereas before I had zero interest.

I have interest but with him not being able to be used with Changehost (specific name and not keyword I think?) I'm not sure how much use he'll get from me.

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