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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

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35 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

We need updated spell lores. I’d like less things to rely on keeping fate dice... what kind of sick freak wants us to not use are best resource? Or perhaps that is just tzeentches ways... lol.  I’d also want more wizard relics and less melee ones tbh, I know daemon princes can be cool with them but honestly just have 2 or 3... we have like 6 melee relics at the moment right? Along the lines of updated spell lores, some spells need serious looking at, the one that buffs heroes can up there bravery by one... like what? Who would choose that bonus 😂. Damage spells are fine as is in my mind, but we need perhaps some longer ranged ones that are less powerful but pay for that with more reach. 

Our terrain piece should effect either casters or fate dice. Perhaps the ability to recycle fate dice like the cabal leader but for units in a bubble? Also I’d like more command abilities. We have one usable one and no reason to use cp on morale most games... like please gimme something for that other then the chicken GeeDubbs. Other then that general buffs to arcanite stuff to help against powercreep would be fine

for endless spells I want a tzeentch caster buff, a damage spell that turns people into tzaangor or spawn (perhaps it hurts everyone lol!) and a defensive anti spell one

also arcanites need more rules to represent a cult rising up. I’m thinking a flanking ability or formation to show they were amongst the enemy and exposed their true loyalties. We are genestealer cults fantasy style I wanna see more of that

love the concept of a cult rising up. New arcanites abilities and/or models would be cool. ALso, I don't see a lot of battalion choices that are viable currently.....multihost, changeshost, and maybe 2? covens....from what I see

Edited by MattyP

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1 hour ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

We need updated spell lores. I’d like less things to rely on keeping fate dice... what kind of sick freak wants us to not use are best resource? Or perhaps that is just tzeentches ways... lol.  I’d also want more wizard relics and less melee ones tbh, I know daemon princes can be cool with them but honestly just have 2 or 3... we have like 6 melee relics at the moment right? Along the lines of updated spell lores, some spells need serious looking at, the one that buffs heroes can up there bravery by one... like what? Who would choose that bonus 😂. Damage spells are fine as is in my mind, but we need perhaps some longer ranged ones that are less powerful but pay for that with more reach. 

Our terrain piece should effect either casters or fate dice. Perhaps the ability to recycle fate dice like the cabal leader but for units in a bubble? Also I’d like more command abilities. We have one usable one and no reason to use cp on morale most games... like please gimme something for that other then the chicken GeeDubbs. Other then that general buffs to arcanite stuff to help against powercreep would be fine

for endless spells I want a tzeentch caster buff, a damage spell that turns people into tzaangor or spawn (perhaps it hurts everyone lol!) and a defensive anti spell one

also arcanites need more rules to represent a cult rising up. I’m thinking a flanking ability or formation to show they were amongst the enemy and exposed their true loyalties. We are genestealer cults fantasy style I wanna see more of that

Spell lores definitely need some updating. I love how all of the Skaven's war engines can be overpowered for a risk. I think it would be cool if each of our spells had a normal and a risky version when casting. I would also like to see more Artifacts of Power that play to our strengths. There are so many in our current book that trigger when you kill a hero or monster in combat and that's not really our thing. More Artifacts or General Traits that make casting more interesting would be nice. Regular Tzaangors need to be streamlined. Currently a unit with all the upgrades is a pain to resolve in combat. 

As far as capturing the feeling for the lore fact that Acolytes are hiding among the cities and armies how about something like this? 

Acolyte Cults have spies everywhere. They use deceitful magic to disguise themselves as fellow soldiers but on the eve of battle they will abandon their posts to join their comrades.
At the start of the battle, choose one friendly Kairic Acolyte unit and 1 enemy Battleline unit. Remove D3 models from that Battleline unit and add that many Kairic Acolyte models to the chosen Kairic Acolyte unit. Do this for each Kairic Acolyte unit in your army. The same enemy batteline unit cannot be chosen more than once. Change the die roll from d3 to d6 if the Kairic Acolyte unit contains 20 or more models at the start of the battle. 
 

 

Edited by Reezark_SP
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1 hour ago, Reezark_SP said:

Spell lores definitely need some updating. I love how all of the Skaven's war engines can be overpowered for a risk. I think it would be cool if each of our spells had a normal and a risky version when casting. I would also like to see more Artifacts of Power that play to our strengths. There are so many in our current book that trigger when you kill a hero or monster in combat and that's not really our thing. More Artifacts or General Traits that make casting more interesting would be nice. Regular Tzaangors need to be streamlined. Currently a unit with all the upgrades is a pain to resolve in combat. 

As far as capturing the feeling for the lore fact that Acolytes are hiding among the cities and armies how about something like this? 

Acolyte Cults have spies everywhere. They use deceitful magic to disguise themselves as fellow soldiers but on the eve of battle they will abandon their posts to join their comrades.
At the start of the battle, choose one friendly Kairic Acolyte unit and 1 enemy Battleline unit. Remove D3 models from that Battleline unit and add that many Kairic Acolyte models to the chosen Kairic Acolyte unit. Do this for each Kairic Acolyte unit in your army. The same enemy batteline unit cannot be chosen more than once. Change the die roll from d3 to d6 if the Kairic Acolyte unit contains 20 or more models at the start of the battle. 
 

 

 

This either straight up cant happen or needs to be worded way better. If you have 3 units of KA you basically wipe out all battlelines for some armies. Stormfiends are gone, Mounrfang are gone, Crypt Flayers/Ghouls, etc. It would have to be only enemy battleline units of the same wounds characteristic. Otherwise your battleline just gets to deal 4-19 mortal wounds at start of game, for each one you have.

Edited by SleeperAgent

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40 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Spell lores definitely need some updating. I love how all of the Skaven's war engines can be overpowered for a risk. I think it would be cool if each of our spells had a normal and a risky version when casting. I would also like to see more Artifacts of Power that play to our strengths. There are so many in our current book that trigger when you kill a hero or monster in combat and that's not really our thing. More Artifacts or General Traits that make casting more interesting would be nice. Regular Tzaangors need to be streamlined. Currently a unit with all the upgrades is a pain to resolve in combat. 

As far as capturing the feeling for the lore fact that Acolytes are hiding among the cities and armies how about something like this? 

Acolyte Cults have spies everywhere. They use deceitful magic to disguise themselves as fellow soldiers but on the eve of battle they will abandon their posts to join their comrades.
At the start of the battle, choose one friendly Kairic Acolyte unit and 1 enemy Battleline unit. Remove D3 models from that Battleline unit and add that many Kairic Acolyte models to the chosen Kairic Acolyte unit. Do this for each Kairic Acolyte unit in your army. The same enemy batteline unit cannot be chosen more than once. Change the die roll from d3 to d6 if the Kairic Acolyte unit contains 20 or more models at the start of the battle. 
 

 

that's pretty cool I think .  Love to see some abilities like that

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4 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

 

What if the KA  gained a deep strike ability?

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1 minute ago, MattyP said:

What if the KA  gained a deep strike ability?

Thats fine, but replacing other peoples models before they get to do anything will lead to many salty players. 

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55 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Spell lores definitely need some updating. I love how all of the Skaven's war engines can be overpowered for a risk. I think it would be cool if each of our spells had a normal and a risky version when casting. I would also like to see more Artifacts of Power that play to our strengths. There are so many in our current book that trigger when you kill a hero or monster in combat and that's not really our thing. More Artifacts or General Traits that make casting more interesting would be nice. Regular Tzaangors need to be streamlined. Currently a unit with all the upgrades is a pain to resolve in combat. 

As far as capturing the feeling for the lore fact that Acolytes are hiding among the cities and armies how about something like this? 

Acolyte Cults have spies everywhere. They use deceitful magic to disguise themselves as fellow soldiers but on the eve of battle they will abandon their posts to join their comrades.
At the start of the battle, choose one friendly Kairic Acolyte unit and 1 enemy Battleline unit. Remove D3 models from that Battleline unit and add that many Kairic Acolyte models to the chosen Kairic Acolyte unit. Do this for each Kairic Acolyte unit in your army. The same enemy batteline unit cannot be chosen more than once. Change the die roll from d3 to d6 if the Kairic Acolyte unit contains 20 or more models at the start of the battle. 
 

 

I was actually thinking something along the line of the changlings rules for acolytes. Also gristlegore wouldn’t like losing d3 models from their monster battleline 😂😂😂

i think the melee weapons should’ve been staff upgrades tbh, we have a lot of casters with token range weapons (although they would need to be serious upgrades to be worth it on the current staff weapons) I was thinking since we all know the staff is where the magic comes from, the staff upgrades could be upgrades to arcane bolt! And it would be kool to get a trait allowing us to circumvent arcan bolts rule of one (perhaps the staff relics would add something to the name of the spell making it unique in some manner thus not counting toward the one cast per phase rule)

another way of implementing the acolyte rebellion would be to have a similar ability to FEC summoning but I don’t like the feel of that

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16 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Thats fine, but replacing other peoples models before they get to do anything will lead to many salty players. 

MWUAHHAHAHAHA YOUR STORNHORN WAS SECRETLY A SINGLE ACOLYTE!

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2 hours ago, MattyP said:

love the concept of a cult rising up. New arcanites abilities and/or models would be cool. ALso, I don't see a lot of battalion choices that are viable currently.....multihost, changeshost, and maybe 2? covens....from what I see

math wise the cult of the transient form is actually lit. Do a minimum cabal with three disc guys and minimum skyfires and tzaangors, then just run only acolytes 😂😂😂 the formation literally causes acolytes in battalion strength to be worth 4.5 points per model (as a one in 6 chance to turn into a tzaangor upon death means they are “discounted” by 3 points cuz tzaangors are 18 per model lol)

so running a swarm of acolytes could work lol (of course horrors work out to be similar with split but get a guaranteed split a second opposed to a chance... which is why we all know what works better)

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I am a dedicated Freeguild guy..... snicker all you want!  

But in the interest of proving my buddy Snoopy's assertion that the only winning Tzeentch list is the Skyfire orgy lists making the rounds lately I undertook some research, buying, building and farming out (ye gods my painting is bad).

The result is the attached list; Billy Blake's Battalion.

I 've been running it for three weeks now and after 11 battles and 11 wins, none going the full 5 rounds I can tell you that I am yearning for that ultimate badge of honor... Seeing GW nerf it! lol. Seriously this is a fun, versatile list that will have your opponent checking his rule books, and FAQs for hours to see if you really can rain that many mortal wounds down on his superduper  Khorn killers, or his theretofore undefeated Flesh-eaters!  It is a delight. While pricy, at $523 (not counting the painter... eeek) it is well worth the price and will change your Tzeentch perspective for the better. 

Be warned that it is also frail and very unforgiving of generals who lose focus and don't keep a close eye on their opponent's army and threat matrixes. 

Enjoy!

 BillyBlake'sBattalion.pdf

BillyBlake'sBattalion.pdf

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18 minutes ago, Matador said:

I am a dedicated Freeguild guy..... snicker all you want!  

But in the interest of proving my buddy Snoopy's assertion that the only winning Tzeentch list is the Skyfire orgy lists making the rounds lately I undertook some research, buying, building and farming out (ye gods my painting is bad).

The result is the attached list; Billy Blake's Battalion.

I 've been running it for three weeks now and after 11 battles and 11 wins, none going the full 5 rounds I can tell you that I am yearning for that ultimate badge of honor... Seeing GW nerf it! lol. Seriously this is a fun, versatile list that will have your opponent checking his rule books, and FAQs for hours to see if you really can rain that many mortal wounds down on his superduper  Khorn killers, or his theretofore undefeated Flesh-eaters!  It is a delight. While pricy, at $523 (not counting the painter... eeek) it is well worth the price and will change your Tzeentch perspective for the better. 

Be warned that it is also frail and very unforgiving of generals who lose focus and don't keep a close eye on their opponent's army and threat matrixes. 

Enjoy!

 BillyBlake'sBattalion.pdf

BillyBlake'sBattalion.pdf

Skyfires were already nerfed tho, I don’t see as many “orgy” lists making the rounds. In fact the most recent winning list for tzeentch I’ve personally seen was horror spam

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Hey Changers!

Just picked up a force of Tzeentch deamons and I'm thinking of testing the waters with this silly list:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders

Kairos Fateweaver (380) - Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (180) - General - Trait: Nexus of Fate - Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer - Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond - Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (160) - Artefact: Warpfire Blade - Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Battleline

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200) - Lore of Change: Fold Reality

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200) - Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Endless Spells

Umbral Spellportal (60)

The Burning Head (40)

Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 1250 / 1250 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 200 Wounds: 47

 

The basic idea being that the Burning Head gives the 2 units of horrors rerolls on 1s to hit and if it does damage to them, that's ok because I can use Destiny Dice or Fold Reality to bring them back and gather Fate/Blue Horror points. Kairos uses Spell Portal plus Gift of Change to snipe any heroes that get to close and turn them into Chaos Spawn and the Pallisade is just in the list to be a road block on a crowded board or hole up against shooting lists.  The Daemon Prince is a melee bruiser who can also go hero hunting when needed.

I know its not competitive but I'm hoping it is a list to help me feel out where I want to go with Tzeentch as I build my forces up.

 

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3 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

This either straight up cant happen or needs to be worded way better. If you have 3 units of KA you basically wipe out all battlelines for some armies. Stormfiends are gone, Mounrfang are gone, Crypt Flayers/Ghouls, etc. It would have to be only enemy battleline units of the same wounds characteristic. Otherwise your battleline just gets to deal 4-19 mortal wounds at start of game, for each one you have.

Its funny I thought I specified that the targeted battleline units had to be Order since in the lore the cults are infiltrating the cities of Order all across the Realms. But I must have spaced out on that detail. That would eliminate the worry of Stormfiends and Beastclaw battleline being affected. I'd also be fine with a further restriction that the batteline unit in question can only have a Wound characteristic of 2 or less, since the idea in my mind was that the Acolytes have infiltrated the enemy's lowest ranking soldiers among the army. I did, however, specifically say that the same battleline unit cannot be targeted more than once, so that would eliminate the possibility of multiple Acolyte units focusing down a single battleline unit until it was completely gone.

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Ok how about this?

Kairic Acolytes have their spies everywhere in the cities of Order. Many have used their magical disguises to hide themselves amongst the common soldiers to gleam knowledge of the enemy's battleplan in order to gain a strategic advantage. 

After both sides have finished deploying, roll a die for each friendly Kairic Acolytes unit in the army. On a 6, choose a friendly unit and redeploy it. This effect may succeed on a 5 or 6 if the Acolytes unit contains 20 or more models.

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10 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Its funny I thought I specified that the targeted battleline units had to be Order since in the lore the cults are infiltrating the cities of Order all across the Realms. But I must have spaced out on that detail. That would eliminate the worry of Stormfiends and Beastclaw battleline being affected. I'd also be fine with a further restriction that the batteline unit in question can only have a Wound characteristic of 2 or less, since the idea in my mind was that the Acolytes have infiltrated the enemy's lowest ranking soldiers among the army. I did, however, specifically say that the same battleline unit cannot be targeted more than once, so that would eliminate the possibility of multiple Acolyte units focusing down a single battleline unit until it was completely gone.

A super battalion could have that as a rule, gives the player a cp ability that either summons two units of acolytes on the flank or summons one but it replaces a unit an opponent owns of one wound models. That way if you have no available targets it still works and if you do you can mess with the opponent as your change magic majorly screws with them. 

id also like to see a rule for the lord of change... can make fate dice but has a chance of death if it does so (as a in game representation of medaling too much and getting and getting itself killed lol)

I also think more change magic needs to exist, the “nurgle rot” formation either needs to lose the disc dudes (honestly... shooting in a melee formation?!? At least make it melee discs. I swear they just injected the disc guys to make the formation cost more models lol. The change coven should have two units of acolytes, and the other coven should’ve had a leader model that taught them cooler magic bolts like my fave the magister!) I mean the shooty one isn’t bad it’s just the discs seem out of place in both formations. Also I love the nurgles rot which makes tzaangors but I hate skyfires so I’m conflicted  

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Could someone please share an example of a heavy horror spam list?

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1 hour ago, Nqshou said:

Could someone please share an example of a heavy horror spam list?

Okie doke

lord of change

the trait that gives minus one to hit at range plus the minus one to hit relic (I forget the name sorry) and whatever spell you’d like as a lore spell 

pink horror*10

pink horror*10

pink horror*10 (these fill out our battleline and grant us 4 casters so far, excellent firebase and lots of spells with possible plus two to cast! Yummy)

mixture of blues and brimstones (mostly blues, keep brimstones as a way of keeping points for other things you want as blues split for free so no need to focus on brimstones. It is recommended to keep both at unit sizes of ten, but if you want more initial staying power from a single unit for any reason feel free to bump up a blue horror unit to whatever you see fit, the msu style is however what makes the list so annoying, as often the opponent can only delete them one at a time, only for another unit to be spawned on your turn)

gaunt summoner w/the look out sir spell as our anti horde (we like the number advantage) and a highly survivable caster to summon with

end with some endless spells (take any you like but spell portal and any that disrupt movement and charges such as palisade, graveside, and shackles are extremely useful and recommended. I’d also suggest the burning head, as so many attacks could be potentially buffed and for the most part you don’t care about losses. You can also use a damaging endless spell you hurt your horrors on purpose in order to reinforce another area of the battle. I suggest pendulum for this task as it can’t backfire on you and does a lot of damage in a controlled area. This allows you to pick up as many horror points as needed while also retaining control over how many units are hit. Remember that since it is cast in the hero phase you will get to summon with those points immediately that turn! Since summoning happens in the movement phase I believe) and grab the changhost formation

 

 

this is of course an unfinished list as I wanted to keep it as open as possible so that you could finish it as you like, but still see the base of a “horror spam” list and understand how to make your own. The base idea is as follows: the opponent loses effectiveness as they lose models... you don’t! This is because horrors split, so as your force dies you either stay the same damage wise or actually gain damage such as when a pink horror splits into two blues, doubling their shots at the price of a bit of range. The formation I suggested allows for a second relic, please consider either the mark of the conjurer on the gaunt summoner (the lord of change is too valuable to give anything other then a durability relic sadly) or the relic that allows rerolls of one to cast for daemons nearby. Another change could be to make the gaunt summoner warlord and grab the arcanite trait: arcane sacrifice. This will allow you to sacrifice nearby horrors to split even faster and spawn more units, thus gaining more and more area as you spread out horrors. Due to fate points you will get from the enemy casting and you casting, the horror points allow you to “fill in the blanks” and as such make tzeentch summoning sometimes match that of the seraphon if enough horrors are dying. The added mobility of the changehost formation allows you to continue to gain favourable matchups on objectives (such as switch a dying unit for a bigger one, scoring an objective) or even keeping opponents stalled in melee as every blue they kill gets replaced, and you simply spawn more brimstones to fill in your gunlines. The teleport abilities of the changehost also allow you to keep your pinks and lord of change safe from harm, and always remember to use those ones to pass battleshock for the pink horrors as they hold banners that allow for d6 horrors to come back when they roll a one for battleshock

if you would like an actual complete list, or one for 1000 points please don’t be afraid to ask, as I love adding content to this thread! I hope with this post I’ve broadened your understanding of why the list is effective and why horrors can be so scary in large numbers. Please if I missed anything @me so I can learn more tricks haha. I hope I was not confusing and I didn’t add too much info at once

Edited by TheadTheOgorSlayer
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Hi guys, wanted to share my 1250 list to spark some more discussion:

 

[Heros]
Lord of Change (Mark of Conjurer, Tzeentch Inferno)
Gaunt Summoner w/ Chaos Familiars (Arcane Sacrifice, Treacherous Bond)
Herald of Tzeentch (Bolt of Tzeentch)
[Units]
2x 10 Pink Horrors (Fold Reality,  Unchecked Mutation)
[Spells]
Balewind Vortex
Chronomatic Cogs
Aethervoid Pendulum

 

So the idea is ramping up. I try to summon 2x 10 blues t1 to populate the field. and bubble wrap my hero's. t3 and t4 is where I should truly shine by outnumbering my opponent in summoned points and controlling the battlefield. Hoping I'm not too far behind objective wise. I'm thinking of switching up the endless spells and do miss the extra protection items on Lord of Change for the -2 to hit. But for now I'll be testing this list with a friend for locals next week. Fire away
 

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I was not expecting so much. Thank you for your reply. I do have a bunch of questions : 1. Why do you bring Blue horrors when you can bring more pink horrors that will then split into blue when they die? Do you do that to directly bring more bodies to the fight and therefore get control of objectives? 2. Could you please share a 1K list, and what should be added to this list to make it a 2k list? Thanks again.

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I think its because you need 8 deamon units for the battelion and thus you need cheaper units to fill the list for the requirement

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41 minutes ago, Nqshou said:

I was not expecting so much. Thank you for your reply. I do have a bunch of questions : 1. Why do you bring Blue horrors when you can bring more pink horrors that will then split into blue when they die? Do you do that to directly bring more bodies to the fight and therefore get control of objectives? 2. Could you please share a 1K list, and what should be added to this list to make it a 2k list? Thanks again.

The changehost requires 9 units to use its ability twice so as such filling out the list with as many cheap msu units allowance the teleports to stay frequent. You can always add a pink horror unit at the expense of two initial blues if you fancy, it’s all about finding the balance of horror types (which is why I intentionally left that part of the list completely blank and only filled the base) blues are cost efficient and initial bulk can be important so I belaive personally 5 casters is enough and filling out with blues and brimstones is sufficient, especially since this list cares almost completely on board control and doesn’t need extra casters in my mind. As for a 1k I’ll formulate one or just put up the one I already have ready but be warned the one I have ready is less horror spam and More my next list utilizing heavy horror use, but it does still use similar tactics. Horror spam at lower levels is difficult to do as it’s harder to promote “growth” with deaths but it’s still doable, I’ll post it later today

Edited by TheadTheOgorSlayer

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32 minutes ago, Fenomeen said:

I think its because you need 8 deamon units for the battelion and thus you need cheaper units to fill the list for the requirement

This is also a good point! And why good horror spam works best at high levels. It should be noted you can achieve a similar list with the multitudinous horde battalion however it will not be as competitive (but the added horror healing can be hilarious and fun, it’s just that it’s unneeded for the list to work and that the mobility added to the changehost is a much better bonus for actually completing the objectives most games need to win)

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Also remember that summoned units don’t count towards kill points so for minor vistories in case of ties the ability to summon troops is invaluable

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