AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Quarmiel]

Purple Sun of Shyish: "If the unit has Wounds characteristic of 6 or more, it suffers 2D6 mortal wounds instead".

According to this an unit of 5 Liberators has 10 wounds and I should deal them 2d6 mw - is it correct?

[michu]

No, it has wound characteristic 2. You do not add wounds of all models in unit. That ability is for Heroes and Monsters.

[Nevvermore]

18 minutes ago, Quarmiel said:

Purple Sun of Shyish: "If the unit has Wounds characteristic of 6 or more, it suffers 2D6 mortal wounds instead".

According to this an unit of 5 Liberators has 10 wounds and I should deal them 2d6 mw - is it correct?

the Wounds characteristic of a unit is the number printed on the warscroll.

[AaronWilson]

2 hours ago, Olincay said:

So I'm alittle confused, i've heard people saying you need to have 10 fate points in the bank to be able to use your splitting points from pinks/blues ect.
Is this correct? 

 

Hey mate, just to clear it up for your self.

You can use Blue / Brimstone horror points instead of fate points but our summoning rules currently state "At the end of your movement phase, if you have 10 or more fate points you can use them to summon of the summonable units list". 

So while you can combine BH points with fate points they don't substitute them, so until we are at 10 fate points we can't summon them at all as they are summoned via our normal mechanic, all be using it the BH points instead of / with Fate points. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by AaronWIlson

[Olincay]

34 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Hey mate, just to clear it up for your self.

You can use Blue / Brimstone horror points instead of fate points but our summoning rules currently state "At the end of your movement phase, if you have 10 or more fate points you can use them to summon of the summonable units list". 

So while you can combine BH points with fate points they don't substitute them, so until we are at 10 fate points we can't summon them at all as they are summoned via our normal mechanic, all be using it the BH points instead of / with Fate points. 

Right, clear as mud haha.

So why are we paying premium points for pinks if they're not really splitting for free? The more time goes on the more underwhelmed by summoning i am becomming, same can be said for Tzeentch in general really. 

Cheers for clarifying that up tho. 

[AaronWilson]

I mean they are splitting for free, it's just we can only summon them once we've hit 10 fate points. At that point if you had 40 Blue Horror points you could use all 40 and summon 4 units of 10 blue horrors. 

[Tommy]

I really like the way fate/horror points can be mixed, e.g. 8 dead pinks letting you summon 20 blues (well, two lots of 10 I guess?) using the 16 horror points collected so far plus 4 fate points thrown in.

Means you don't have to wait around for the last pinks to die, your opponent can't slow down your reinforcements by not targeting those last few pinks, and you can always use the petty vengeance thing instead of gathering those last few horror points you know you won't use.

Will make things more tactically open hopefully. And should be fun! ?

[Nevvermore]

I'm sad that the name is the only good thing about the "Petty Vengeance" ability. It's no substitute for summoning that's for sure!

[AaronWilson]

57 minutes ago, Tommy said:

I really like the way fate/horror points can be mixed, e.g. 8 dead pinks letting you summon 20 blues (well, two lots of 10 I guess?) using the 16 horror points collected so far plus 4 fate points thrown in.

Means you don't have to wait around for the last pinks to die, your opponent can't slow down your reinforcements by not targeting those last few pinks, and you can always use the petty vengeance thing instead of gathering those last few horror points you know you won't use.

Will make things more tactically open hopefully. And should be fun! ?

It is really useful, I'm a bit dissapointed we have to wait until 10 fate points to start using them though. Between unbinds that could be turn 3, which is quite late in the game 

[Tommy]

Yep turn 3 is late alright, especially with heroes dying off. At least with horrors it can be 4 fate points plus 6 horror points or whatever which potentially gets 'em in earlier.

I don't see summoning being massively OP at all in practice. Feels a lot more like hard work than free stuff!

[BillyOcean]

3 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

 until we are at 10 fate points we can't summon them at all as they are summoned via our normal mechanic, all be using it the BH points instead of / with Fate points. 

I agree that under the current wording, we cannot summon Blue Horrors until we have at least 10 of the generic summon points, even if we are going to use special Blue Horror points to summon them. HOWEVER, I think we all need to stop assuming that the wording of these rules reflect how the game is supposed to be played. If the AoS2 release has taught us anything, its that the design team is unable to translate their intentions into clear rules language - thinking of the whole 1st turn debacle among other things. 

I believe the intention is that if we are summoning Blue Horrors,  the BH points substitute for generic summon points in all respects, both when paying the cost and determining whether 10 are available.

So, lets all calm down and all of us email the design team at aosfaq@gwplc.com to ask for clarification. If the question is frequently asked, it will be answered!

[AaronWilson]

40 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Yep turn 3 is late alright, especially with heroes dying off. At least with horrors it can be 4 fate points plus 6 horror points or whatever which potentially gets 'em in earlier.

I don't see summoning being massively OP at all in practice. Feels a lot more like hard work than free stuff!

Tommy, sadly it doesn't as we can't physically summon anything until we're at 10 Fate Points, despite how many Blue / Brimstone horrors pints we have. 

13 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

I agree that under the current wording, we cannot summon Blue Horrors until we have at least 10 of the generic summon points, even if we are going to use special Blue Horror points to summon them. HOWEVER, I think we all need to stop assuming that the wording of these rules reflect how the game is supposed to be played. If the AoS2 release has taught us anything, its that the design team is unable to translate their intentions into clear rules language - thinking of the whole 1st turn debacle among other things. 

I believe the intention is that if we are summoning Blue Horrors,  the BH points substitute for generic summon points in all respects, both when paying the cost and determining whether 10 are available.

So, lets all calm down and all of us email the design team at aosfaq@gwplc.com to ask for clarification. If the question is frequently asked, it will be answered!

To be fair matey I'm not panicking, just making it clear for players how the new summoning rule works I'll drop a email to GW as well though, as if they did intend for it work differently they haven't worded it well at all

[BillyOcean]

1 minute ago, AaronWIlson said:

To be fair matey I'm not panicking, just making it clear for players how the new summoning rule works I'll drop a email to GW as well though, as if they did intend for it work differently they haven't worded it well at all

Yep, sorry I didn't mean to suggest you were panicking - that was just a throwaway line. I agree its useful to point out that this is how things work under the current language - we don't want any fellow Tzeentchians getting caught out by the rules lawyers! 

I was just trying to head off lengthy discussion of how bad Pinks are now - I think its a glitch in the language and we want to get it clarified first. 

[AaronWilson]

They would be more attractive if they could split in your next hero phase regardless of Fate Points but I think even at 200 there upfront cost is very high. They have a poor save, a average shooting attack granted they are a wizard. The splitting is nice, but blues & brimstones aren't doing anything exciting even considering they're "free".  Free is good but not if it doesn't warrant the initial cost

It's a shame, I think we will see Tzeentch lists move into a lot more Tzaangors simply using the fate point system as a bonus, either spawning Screamers for fast chaff or Heralds for more spell casts / a different spawn point for deamons.

[Richelieu]

4 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

Hey mate, just to clear it up for your self.

You can use Blue / Brimstone horror points instead of fate points but our summoning rules currently state "At the end of your movement phase, if you have 10 or more fate points you can use them to summon of the summonable units list". 

So while you can combine BH points with fate points they don't substitute them, so until we are at 10 fate points we can't summon them at all as they are summoned via our normal mechanic, all be using it the BH points instead of / with Fate points. 

Your interpretation really isn't clear cut.  Warscrolls override everything else, and the warscrolls say that for the purposes of summoning rules involving blue horrors you can use blue horror points instead of fate points.  

You can summon if fate = 10

For the purposes of summoning blues, blue horror points = fate points

Therefore you can summon blues if you have 10 blue horror points.

[BillyOcean]

40 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

blues & brimstones aren't doing anything exciting even considering they're "free"

The way I play Tzeentch, blues and brims are critical as chaff walls. Clearly they are now too expensive to spend points on for that purpose, so I'm looking for ways to pop them out in front of the main line for "free". I was planning to farm a unit of pinks, probably with the quicksilver swords, to generate blue points then replenish the pinks with Fold Reality or fate dice on battleshock. This would allow me to drop 1-2 units of blues 9" away from my opponent turn 1, achieving the chaff effect nicely. Obviously, the new rule as written prevents that trick because I'm unlikely to rack up 10 generic Fate Points turn 1. So its important to get it clarified. 

[kenshin620]

2 hours ago, Nevvermore said:

I'm sad that the name is the only good thing about the "Petty Vengeance" ability. It's no substitute for summoning that's for sure!

Yea it seems like a band aid for budget players that don't have Blue and Brimstone Horrors.

[BillyOcean]

5 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

You can summon if fate = 10

For the purposes of summoning blues, blue horror points = fate points

 

I agree this is how its intended to work. But I think theres some clunkiness in the wording that makes it i unclear whether Blue Points count as Fate Points when determining whether the threshold of 10 is met, as well as when paying the cost. I'd really like for it to be clarified as I don't want to argue about it at a tournament table.

[Richelieu]

4 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

I agree this is how its intended to work. But I think theres some clunkiness in the wording that makes it i unclear whether Blue Points count as Fate Points when determining whether the threshold of 10 is met, as well as when paying the cost. I'd really like for it to be clarified as I don't want to argue about it at a tournament table.

Definitely clunky and should be clarified, but I lean towards what is both obviously intended and a legitimate interpretation, that for all summoning rules purposes involving blues, you can substitute blue points for fate points.  Which is not to say that @AaronWIlsons interpretation is without merit as well.

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

Tommy, sadly it doesn't as we can't physically summon anything until we're at 10 Fate Points

Thanks man, I missed that detail. RAW I'd say you're right, but hopefully they'll errata it the other way.

[Drib]

I guess the same bad wording will apply to the FSWB, as they might have  forgotten that units from some battalions have an allegiance that opposes the battalion warscroll. It's hard to think, that they lose their keyword and allegiance just by having a battalion.

Well for now it works like this, but then again, which allied battalion (including all units) is cheap enough to be used in any army?

Edited June 28, 2018 by Drib

[Gilby]

Are we sure about the FSWB thing?

p6 of the designer commentary:

"Warscroll battalions that share the same allegiance as an army can always be taken as part of the army, and if they include any allied units, these units do not count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (or against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle). An army can include a warscroll battalion of a different allegiance to the rest of the army, but if it does so the units in it do count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (and the points for the battalion and the units in it count against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle)."

 

The, "units in it do count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have", surely refers to units that are not part of your armies allegiance? Otherwise you're spending ally points on your own battleline (can Tzeentch even ally Tzeentch?). I think this is the way you're meant to read it given the context of the previous section talking about how allies don't cost ally points if the battalion is the same allegiance as your army.

As everything is Tzeentch then you're just spending 160 ally points on the battalion as an ally?

[Boss Salvage]

Tzeentchians! Finally wandering over to TGA thanks to AOS 2.0 annnnd finally picking up my Disciples book, despite having played Daemons of Tzeentch through 8E and the pre-battletome days of AOS. I'm planning on mostly playing my new Daemons of Khorne in the new edition (questionable decision!), but my DOT are painted and mostly rebased, plus destiny dice are amazing. It's pretty stunning the price hikes our dudes have suffered - to the point that making lists with pink horror battelines is a bit unpleasant - but I'll give it a shot.

Anyway, LGS is doing a 1k bring-n-battle thing on Saturday, think this is where I'm at:

Daemon Prince Of Tzeentch (160)
- General
- Command Trait : Incorporeal Form
- Artefact : Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change : Treason of Tzeentch
Herald Of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change : Fold Reality
UNITS
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change : Unchecked Mutation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change : Arcane Transformation
3 x Screamers Of Tzeentch (100)

1000/1000

I prefer fighty Tizz, hence some of the tooling here, and am aiming on keeping horrors in the game through their banners, destiny dice and folding reality. My original plan was to run my soul grinder (as I did throughout AOS 1.0) instead of DP, but I feel like I needed a second hero and as many spells as I could muster, to at least try for some fate points.

I've reported all of my AOS games ever (over on Dakka but the great PB debacle deleted all the pics), so you'll hear about these as well

Edited June 28, 2018 by Boss Salvage

[TheOtherJosh]

@Boss Salvage Ahh welcome aboard!

Its an interesting list indeed. I might well steal your idea! 

Sword or Axe for the dp? (Probably sword, better to hit, though I’ll likely end up snagging my Khorne DP with Axe as a stand-in )

I assume wings?

Why not use a Herald on Disc to increase mobility? Are you specifically looking for the spell for the Herald on foot?

Screamers because of the new faq change? Would they be more beneficial than say an Exalted Flamer?

What do you think you would do after 1000 points? 

Any thoughts on the new Realm Artefacts/Weapons?

Edited June 28, 2018 by TheOtherJosh

[Cambot1231]

I think chaos warriors provide the necessary speed bump our wizards need at 4+ save and are great for shrugging mortal wounds from your characters onto them with treacherous bond (given the spell is still there in ghb2018) Worth another look.  My two blocks of warriors are always still standing by the end of the game.