AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Forrix]

9 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

The disks only have 1 inch though, so you would be giving up a significant chunk of damage keeping them at 2".

Could be a good reason to take the "new" Enlightened on foot. You give up a lot for those 40 points but if you're keeping them behind a screen it doesn't really matter.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

Any thoughts on Skyfires after the Beasts of Chaos nerf? Seems like they're actually really bad. They inflict about 0.75 wounds per shot (before saves, but including MW), or 0.9166... wounds per model when in range of a Tzaangor Shaman.  So you expect roughly 3 wounds out of a unit of 3 in the shooting phase. That doesn't seem like a very good return for 200 points. Sure, you can bring them into melee, but it seems like you might as well use Enlightened for 140 points in that case, and get a much better melee unit. 

 

They're pretty cool models and I was planning to use them in my BoC army, but unfortunately they seem like a terrible choice.

Edited October 3, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign

[decker_cky]

I mean....the obvious difference is that the skyfires do it without needing to put themselves in danger. 24" is ridiculous range. 

Tzeentch armies have destiny dice for the shots that matter too. 

Skyfires may be a bit overpriced currently, but they're still a very potent unit that can play a role. They're more resilient than you think and they hit surprisingly hard in combat. 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

9 hours ago, decker_cky said:

I mean....the obvious difference is that the skyfires do it without needing to put themselves in danger. 24" is ridiculous range. 

Tzeentch armies have destiny dice for the shots that matter too. 

Skyfires may be a bit overpriced currently, but they're still a very potent unit that can play a role. They're more resilient than you think and they hit surprisingly hard in combat. 

Fair enough. I play Beasts of Chaos so I unfortunately don't have the ability to auto-trigger MW with destiny dice. 

[Pandamina]

18 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Fair enough. I play Beasts of Chaos so I unfortunately don't have the ability to auto-trigger MW with destiny dice. 

Destiny dice are pretty situational ability, as you can't really expect more than two sixes, and those sixes can be used better somewhere else most of the time (for example big casting roll). I personally still think that skyfires are decent choice in BoC battletome due to lack of ranged options.  And their unmodified roll is pretty handy against all minuses to hit.

[Hannibal]

4 hours ago, Pandamina said:

 I personally still think that skyfires are decent choice in BoC battletome due to lack of ranged options.  And their unmodified roll is pretty handy against all minuses to hit.

I second that statement. IMO Skyfires are now a pretty decent tactical unit instead of a nuclear nuke they formerly were. Without any ranged game on your side, your opponent is free to move his weak buffing characters.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

14 hours ago, Pandamina said:

Destiny dice are pretty situational ability, as you can't really expect more than two sixes, and those sixes can be used better somewhere else most of the time (for example big casting roll). I personally still think that skyfires are decent choice in BoC battletome due to lack of ranged options.  And their unmodified roll is pretty handy against all minuses to hit.

Fair point that the unmodified 6 to hit for MW can be useful.

But it seems to me like 40 Ungor Raiders (320 pts) are just straight up better at shooting and way cheaper than 2 units of Skyfires (400 pts), though. If you ambush with Raiders then their reduced range (18") isn't a huge deal. And when ambushing with the Brayblast Trumpet and the Desolating Beastherd Battalion you can expect to deal over 22 wounds (before saves) from a block of 40.  Even without Brayblast trumpet or Desolating Beastherd, they still inflict on average about 11 wounds per shooting phase. Whereas 2 units of Skyfires will give you roughly 6 to 7 wounds per shooting phase for 80 more points.

I think the Skyfire models are pretty cool, but I'm having trouble justifying taking them.

[Magnus The Blue]

3 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Fair point that the unmodified 6 to hit for MW can be useful.

But it seems to me like 40 Ungor Raiders (320 pts) are just straight up better at shooting and way cheaper than 2 units of Skyfires (400 pts), though. If you ambush with Raiders then their reduced range (18") isn't a huge deal. And when ambushing with the Brayblast Trumpet and the Desolating Beastherd Battalion you can expect to deal over 22 wounds (before saves) from a block of 40.  Even without Brayblast trumpet or Desolating Beastherd, they still inflict on average about 11 wounds per shooting phase. Whereas 2 units of Skyfires will give you roughly 6 to 7 wounds per shooting phase for 80 more points.

I think the Skyfire models are pretty cool, but I'm having trouble justifying taking them.

I think Ungor raiders are a completely different kettle of fish (and only Allies in DoT, which is the focus of this thread). 18" range and 40 models to get in range is very different from 3-6 models at 24" range (ambush helps you get in range, but you're still in charge range of most units after shooting them).

That said, this last nerf feels like it's a bit too far (after the point rise) and doesn't make them unplayable but I can't see them making it into many competitive lists.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I think Ungor raiders are a completely different kettle of fish (and only Allies in DoT, which is the focus of this thread). 18" range and 40 models to get in range is very different from 3-6 models at 24" range (ambush helps you get in range, but you're still in charge range of most units after shooting them).

That said, this last nerf feels like it's a bit too far (after the point rise) and doesn't make them unplayable but I can't see them making it into many competitive lists.

With the Phantasmagoria of Fate Battalion Ungor Raiders don't cost ally points. Of course, if playing them in Tzeentch allegiance you miss out on ambushing, though.

[Mo7650]

Hi guys

I have a question, in the Balewind Vortex rules it says that I cannot put a wizard who has more than one model in its unit on it. I suppose this is to stop someone putting pink horrors on it, but what about Gaunt Summoner with Chaos familiars? The familiars aren't really models in the unit in the normal sense are they? So can I use balewind Vortex with 'Gaunt Summoner with Chaos familiars'?

I am planning to go arcane sacrifice with balewind vortex combo for some magical punishment!

Thanks in advance! My game is tomorrow! 

[Calum Todd]

2 hours ago, Mo7650 said:

Hi guys

I have a question, in the Balewind Vortex rules it says that I cannot put a wizard who has more than one model in its unit on it. I suppose this is to stop someone putting pink horrors on it, but what about Gaunt Summoner with Chaos familiars? The familiars aren't really models in the unit in the normal sense are they? So can I use balewind Vortex with 'Gaunt Summoner with Chaos familiars'?

I am planning to go arcane sacrifice with balewind vortex combo for some magical punishment!

Thanks in advance! My game is tomorrow! 

Same set up as myself. The Balewind and Gaunt become one model so the Familiars can be placed around the Balewind instead of balancing on top. This is my interpretation anyway, and I don't believe there's any issues. They're effectively glorified wound markers and don't really do anything.

Good luck tomorrow.

[Mo7650]

Thanks!

[HMB]

is it possible to create funny/good lists with Slave to Darkness without the Fatesworn now?

[decker_cky]

Eyes of the nine warscroll is up. I'm not feeling smart enough to figure out if there's actually any value to it. 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/aos-warscroll-eyes-of-the-nine-en.pdf

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

Eyes of the nine warscroll is up. I'm not feeling smart enough to figure out if there's actually any value to it. 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/aos-warscroll-eyes-of-the-nine-en.pdf

Huh so they just shoved everyone but the wizard into one weird unit. Well thats....something.

[AverageBoss]

6 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

With the Phantasmagoria of Fate Battalion Ungor Raiders don't cost ally points. Of course, if playing them in Tzeentch allegiance you miss out on ambushing, though.

Actually they are allies as the battalion itself lacks the Tzeentch keyword (which makes everything in the battalion an ally, including Tzaangors). And at that point it can't be taken at all as Beasts of Chaos (the battalion keyword) is not a valid Tzeentch ally.

[Cauthon]

If you use Skyfires as a gun line  unit yeah you’ll prolly be disappointed with their damage output (except when you accidentally roll 3 6’s). 

 

I think theg they bring a lot more utility to the table than that and imo utility is the name of the game for DoT. 

 

Having such great movement and sneaky good melee is a lot more useful later in the game than 40 Gors imo. 

 

Cool you ambushed and shot something and maybe disrupted a unit for a turn while it turned around to smear you. You might have done more wounds in that one volley than a similar sized unit of skyfires would do, but if your skyfires are playing the ranged game (24” range is bananas good) you’re potentially getting 3-5 full volleys out of your skyfires. 

 

Charecters need to keep a close eye on skyfires, they can disregard short range shooting. 

 

If if you get a bit of value out of their manouverability and their surprisingly decent melee, 16 and change points per wound is a pretty good price imo.  

 

Skyfires are pretty leathal in melee in mid to late game I’ve found. More than capable of punking a hero off an objective late. Especially when they don’t think you can/will. 

[kenshin620]

5 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Actually they are allies as the battalion itself lacks the Tzeentch keyword (which makes everything in the battalion an ally, including Tzaangors). And at that point it can't be taken at all as Beasts of Chaos (the battalion keyword) is not a valid Tzeentch ally.

It's almost been 2 weeks since BoC came out and they still haven't officially FAQ'd/Errata it yet. Seriously have they not realized the RAW problem yet!

Meanwhile "Ooh oops Codex Space Wolves isn't even out yet, but here we have to release a PDF replacement for their Warlord Trait Sagas since we didn't make those changes before printing!"

[merzbau]

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Huh so they just shoved everyone but the wizard into one weird unit. Well thats....something. 

If I remember correctly, weren't the last season (Shadespire)'s units *all* done as single units, to their detriment as useful units in matched play? They point out in the Community article that this means the rest of the Eyes can LOS! Vortimus, but it's still a bit silly not to be able to take him on his own.

As it is, I'm just glad I can make an Arcanite Cabal without duplicating a model or buying the ancient Fatemaster (or doing the work to convert an alternate).

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Actually they are allies as the battalion itself lacks the Tzeentch keyword (which makes everything in the battalion an ally, including Tzaangors). And at that point it can't be taken at all as Beasts of Chaos (the battalion keyword) is not a valid Tzeentch ally.

The writers and other GW reps did emphasize multiple times that the god-marked Battalions fit into god-marked armies without costing ally points, though. If you're playing Tzeentch with the Battalion and your opponent tells you it's illegal because of some obscure RAW reasoning, they're just being an ass.

Edited October 5, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign

[kenshin620]

24 minutes ago, merzbau said:

If I remember correctly, weren't the last season (Shadespire)'s units *all* done as single units, to their detriment as useful units in matched play? They point out in the Community article that this means the rest of the Eyes can LOS! Vortimus, but it's still a bit silly not to be able to take him on his own.

As it is, I'm just glad I can make an Arcanite Cabal without duplicating a model or buying the ancient Fatemaster (or doing the work to convert an alternate).

Actually Spiteclaws Swarm and The Chosen Axes were Hero+Unit combos too.

2 units from a Shadespire warband itself isn't strange, but the Tzeentch one is unique in that it is widely different "units" (as in unit type) within the squad unit (1 tzaangor, 2 karic acolytes, and 1 blue horror that turns into a brimstone horror). The moonclan warband is somewhat similar with squigs and grots being one unit. Usually units try not to mix or average out "profiles".  I honestly almost expected the tzaangor and the blue horror to be separate units from the acolytes, though that'd also be super weird I suppose!

 

7 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

The writers and other GW reps did emphasize multiple times that the god-marked Battalions fit into god-marked armies without costing ally points, though. If you're playing Tzeentch with the Battalion and your opponent tells you it's illegal because of some obscure RAW reasoning, they're just being an ass.

Well I wouldn't call it obscure seeing they specifically singled out Everchosen and Nighthaunt Battalions in the faqs. (And by implication Clan Pestilens)

It'll be like if somehow theres a RAI "rule" that Beastclaw Raiders break Behemoth limits despite no official printed rule, but there exists some warhammer community articles that claim so. (this is an example, sadly I'm pretty sure BCR can't break behemoth limits)

 

But I am very much in the RAI camp, it simply makes no sense for the god marks to exist within BoC as they themselves provide 0 benefit to the beasts themselves so it must be intended they can move into other allegiances. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate with the above statements. It just seems odd for them to specifically make those Battalion Ally rules and specifically say "no you can't have those battalions without paying ally costs" but then suddenly these BoC ones are fine without a specific exception text.

Then again they still haven't FAQ "companion" weapons for old armies, despite specifically now stating Companions in newer unit profiles. So theres that raw vs rai debate they haven't fixed yet.

[AverageBoss]

I agree they should be allowed in god armies no problem, and if that is the intent this need to be fixed asap. If it did go the other way, it would be FAR from the only thing in the game that makes no sense though.

Sadly developer/writer statements outside an official FAQ are not something that can be taken as law, and the FAQ often swings in direct opposition of these statements. Not to mention these statements simply not being as accessible as the FAQ document.

Many DoT players here probably remember when the writer of the DoT book said it was okay to use Destiny Dice on mortal wound rolls. Then the FAQ dropped afterward saying: "no, you can't".

[RickyU]

If you take a Disciples of Tzeentch army with marked slaves to darkness do they still get the re-roll of 1 to saves from the slaves to darkness allegiance? I'm thinking they don't as it would be a Disciples of Tzeentch allegiance instead but I thought I'd check. If not it seems Slaves to darkness tzeentch units are a little worse in disciple lists. 

I hope all this makes sense (I've confused myself a little writing it ?). 

[Waiyuren]

1 hour ago, RickyU said:

If you take a Disciples of Tzeentch army with marked slaves to darkness do they still get the re-roll of 1 to saves from the slaves to darkness allegiance? I'm thinking they don't as it would be a Disciples of Tzeentch allegiance instead but I thought I'd check. If not it seems Slaves to darkness tzeentch units are a little worse in disciple lists. 

I hope all this makes sense (I've confused myself a little writing it ?). 

You are correct; only one allegiance can be given to an army regardless of the units in it. The keyword abilities of the units themselves would still work though, such as the chaos lord's.

[RickyU]

46 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

You are correct; only one allegiance can be given to an army regardless of the units in it. The keyword abilities of the units themselves would still work though, such as the chaos lord's.

Thank you, I thought that was right. I'll have to give the army some good thought.