AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Qaz]

Big blocks of Tzaangors are out, now MSU Tzaangors and Enlightened are in! Nah going to try the Tzaangor Coven with the new changes. Spellportal could be changed out for the dirgehorn from BoC. Skyfire is for fire support, backline unit assassin and objective capture. 
 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

 

Lord Of Change (380)

- General

- Trait: Incorporeal Form

 - Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer

 - Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Tzaangor Shaman (180)

- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might

- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

20 x Tzaangors (360)

3 x Tzaangor Skyfire (200)

6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on foot (200)

Tzaangor Coven (110)

 

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Umbral Spellportal (60)

 

Total: 1950 / 2000

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Qaz
blurry phone image of Enlightened conversions

[Magnus The Blue]

Played a game last night with my endless spells galore list:

Spoiler

Guant summoner with familiars: General with arcane sacrifice.

Lord of Change with Gryph-feather charm

Herald of Tzeetch

The Blue Scribes

The Changling

2 * 10 Pink Horrors

10 Tzaangors

2* 10 Brimestone Horrors

Malign Sorcery up the wazzoo: Pendulum, Balewind Vortex, Chromatic Cogs, Geminids, Gnashing Jaws and Shackles

Actually played really well, against a reasonably competitive storm-cast list . Ended up wiping them off the board by the end of turn 4, they really don't like that many mortal wounds.

My favourite play had to be The Changling DDing a 11 to cast the pendulum down there battle line turn one.  15 mortal wounds done in total, but could have been ever better (6 units hit for D6 wounds each).

Ended up using both the Vortex and Cogs on the Guant summoner most turns (with arcane sacrifice), so it was throwing out 4 spells a turn with +2 to cast (familiar and LoC command) and +15" range and rained death everywhere thanks to the nice offensive realm spells (Ghur).  Couldn't recommend this comb enough if your using realms and the Summoner with familiars is the best caster to do it with in my opinion (effective 9 wounds make's it hard to shift).

10 Tzaangors did great too throwing out about 2 mortal wounds a turn before taking out a full unit of Evocators followed by a mounted mage (can't recall the name).

[FPC]

Quick thought on the Changeling slinging the Pendulum out there....what happens if you cast an Endless Spell and it's already on the table?  Would there be 2, or are they one use only?

[PlayerOfGames]

10 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Played a game last night with my endless spells galore list:

  Reveal hidden contents

Guant summoner with familiars: General with arcane sacrifice.

Lord of Change with Gryph-feather charm

Herald of Tzeetch

The Blue Scribes

The Changling

2 * 10 Pink Horrors

10 Tzaangors

2* 10 Brimestone Horrors

Malign Sorcery up the wazzoo: Pendulum, Balewind Vortex, Chromatic Cogs, Geminids, Gnashing Jaws and Shackles

Actually played really well, against a reasonably competitive storm-cast list . Ended up wiping them off the board by the end of turn 4, they really don't like that many mortal wounds.

My favourite play had to be The Changling DDing a 11 to cast the pendulum down there battle line turn one.  15 mortal wounds done in total, but could have been ever better (6 units hit for D6 wounds each).

Ended up using both the Vortex and Cogs on the Guant summoner most turns (with arcane sacrifice), so it was throwing out 4 spells a turn with +2 to cast (familiar and LoC command) and +15" range and rained death everywhere thanks to the nice offensive realm spells (Ghur).  Couldn't recommend this comb enough if your using realms and the Summoner with familiars is the best caster to do it with in my opinion (effective 9 wounds make's it hard to shift).

10 Tzaangors did great too throwing out about 2 mortal wounds a turn before taking out a full unit of Evocators followed by a mounted mage (can't recall the name).

Impressive display from the Changeling ?... I would not count on it to always work like this, though. Probably your opponent was unaware of the danger. He could have deployed half his army in the Celestial Realm, and deploy the rest in a more widespread zig-zag formation. Then the pendulum would probably only hit 2 or 3 units. A Knight-Incantor can auto-dispel it, of course ... I guess the Changeling died immediately after this heroic act?

Gaunt Summoner with familiars: actually, the attacker can choose if he wants to inflict damage on the Summoner or on the familiars...

[PlayerOfGames]

3 hours ago, FPC said:

Quick thought on the Changeling slinging the Pendulum out there....what happens if you cast an Endless Spell and it's already on the table?  Would there be 2, or are they one use only?

In matched play, you can have only one model of an endless spell on the table (see GHB). If you want to re-cast the spell, the model has to be removed from play first (usually by dispelling it or by it moving over a  table edge). Outside of matched play you can cast it as long as you have models that are not yet on the table (Malign Sorcery).

[FPC]

Thanks makes sense. 

[AverageBoss]

51 minutes ago, PlayerOfGames said:

Gaunt Summoner with familiars: actually, the attacker can choose if he wants to inflict damage on the Summoner or on the familiars...

That was actually changed in a recent FAQ. He is effectively a 9 wound wizard now.

Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars,
Chaos Familiars
Change the first paragraph to:
‘If any wounds or mortal wounds are allocated to this model and not negated, you can choose to remove one Chaos Familiar. If you do so, the wound or mortal wound is negated.’

Edited September 21, 2018 by AverageBoss

[PlayerOfGames]

Wow, didn't know that ... That's HUGE.

[Magnus The Blue]

1 hour ago, PlayerOfGames said:

Impressive display from the Changeling ?... I would not count on it to always work like this, though. Probably your opponent was unaware of the danger. He could have deployed half his army in the Celestial Realm, and deploy the rest in a more widespread zig-zag formation. Then the pendulum would probably only hit 2 or 3 units. A Knight-Incantor can auto-dispel it, of course ... I guess the Changeling died immediately after this heroic act?

You can change your entire deployment to try and counter it, but that's cool too. Changling can stay hidden as long as necessary while disrupting movement and waiting for the time to strike.  Also helps to have spell options (Geminds work really well against a Zig-zag formation). I obviously waited until I'd drawn out the auto-dispel ;).  Still not entirely convinced, but the unit is very hard to counter and feels very Tzeetchy.

The Changeling did a few more wound by charging a character and using their weapon against them before be torn up.

 

28 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

That was actually changed in a recent FAQ. He is effectively a 9 wound wizard now.

This, also means to get to keep all the familiar goodness until your opponent has got through 4 of it's wounds. Such a strong hero now.

18 hours ago, Qaz said:

Lord Of Change (380)

- General

- Trait: Incorporeal Form

 - Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer

 - Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Tzaangor Shaman (180)

- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might

- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

20 x Tzaangors (360)

3 x Tzaangor Skyfire (200)

6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on foot (200)

Tzaangor Coven (110)

 

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Umbral Spellportal (60)

 

Total: 1950 / 2000

I'd definitely consider dropping the Spellportal, just doesn't feel like it's worth 60 points now it's one spell or endless spell a turn. Personally I don't think you're going to be casting enough spells to make the LoC, Mark of the Conjurer, Cogs combo worth it (assuming that's what your going for). Lots of points and potentially pinning your LoC down to your side of the battlefield and you'll still only get an ok summon turn 2 and maybe another turn 4. I'd concentrate on max making the LoC tanky (Gryph feather and Incorporeal form is a personal favourite) and use it aggressively to keep the heat off the Tzaangors.

 

 

[kenshin620]

The Tzeentch Shadespire Warband looks pretty cool looking, it seems to be an Arcanite Wizard, a Horror, an Acolyte, and a Tzaangor,

NO IDEA how the heck thats going to work for AoS though! Thats like what 4 separate units?

 

[Heroflegend21]

This might be a dumb question, but concerning the new beast of chaos and how closely it deals with Tzeentch units is it possible to add tzeentch arcanite or daemon units to a beasts of chaos army?

[FPC]

Well, above/a page ago I proposed “MSU” Tzaangors surrounded by wizards for MW slinging. I can say from first impression it’s quite good. At least in my initial run vs. Nighthaunt.

my list was:

Guant summoner (bolt)

Magister (glimpse)

Tzaangor Shaman (treason)

4x10 Tzaangors (standard kit of mutants/heavies/specials)

1x10 Pink Horrors (forget their spell, cast endless spells with them)

 

Nighthaunt list from memory:

Grimhailer

Guardian of Souls

Spirit Torment

One other hero, maybe lord executioner

2x10 Grimghast Reapers (maybe 3x10?)

1x10 Bladegeists

2x10 Chainrasp (maybe 3x10?)

6 Spirit Hosts

So I won first turn choice. Nighthaunt went first. Moved up a little, dropped 10 reapers, 10 revenants, 1 character behind and off to my right.  Failed all charges.  Tzeentch T1 Tzaangor mortal wounds killed the deepstriking character, 3 revenants, 3 reapers, and gemnids from horrors did 3 more to each (this all was a bit above average). Basically wiped that deepstrike party. One Tzaangor unit charged killing the leftovers of one deepstruck unit.

Tzeentch lucked into the double turn. Tzaangor mortal wounds did a solid amount to spirit hosts, one or two to some chainrasps.  Aethervoid pendulum finished up the spirit hosts, and killed 4-5 reapers on my flank, plus a few chainrasps.  Surprisingly good roll on pink horror shooting killed several chainrasps. Combat, left flank tzaangors couldn’t quite kill the final reapers and 5 would come back. Right flank killed a handful of chainrasps and reapers. Got hit back hard.

Nighthaunt second turn hit back a bit and killed off the right tzaangors and my Shaman (spirit torment for a free round of attacks for high charge roll).  Killed a few pinks but I DD’d a 1 for 4 back in battle shock. 

Heading into T3, Nighthaunt rolled a double turn, but that meant I got to throw the gemnids into his 6 remaining reapers. Rolled a 6 and killed 3. Not too much more the Nighthaunt could do. Called it there.

All in all I think in a smaller point game and with certain matchups, loading up on Tzaangors seems very strong. It’s probably not going to win tournaments but it’s a strong ability. In all honesty, talking about it after the game, they might not have been as nerfed as it first seemed. The change to the shield helps durability a bit. 30 used to put out a ton of melee damage but throwing out 8 on average MW per turn is something that can be huge. Scaling to 2000 points that average can quickly become 12+. It’s putting a lot of eggs in that ability, but it’s not like Tzaangors are bad in melee and the MW are their only output. Screening with pinks who add MWs to the total and can sling out some endless spells are great.

[RaritanAnon]

So I'm pretty interested in starting up a small army of Tzeentch. I was actually going to do this before 2.0 but was sort of driven away with how cheese Tzeentch was on the onset. Now they're not too terrible. Problem is, I don't know jack about building an army list. This is especially important because I don't want to use any Tzaangors or Kairics at all. Just Daemons of Tzeentch. I'm aiming for 1k right now, but I'm not especially sure what's the best option. I especially don't know what heroes are good any more, but I know I like Screamers and Horrors and Flamers and all that jazz a lot. This is what I came up with. 

Allegiance: Tzeentch 
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Balewind Vortex (40)
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 38

Aside from what's visible, what other Daemons do I need to buy to get it going? So far my shopping list looks like this

Start Collecting Tzeentch (convert blue scribes out of chariot) 

Gaunt Summoner 

Ogroid

1x Pink box

4x Blues/Brims boxes

Does that sound right?

Edited September 24, 2018 by RaritanAnon

[AverageBoss]

8 hours ago, Heroflegend21 said:

This might be a dumb question, but concerning the new beast of chaos and how closely it deals with Tzeentch units is it possible to add tzeentch arcanite or daemon units to a beasts of chaos army?

No, as Beasts can only take Slaves to Darkness as allies.

[Magnus The Blue]

5 hours ago, RaritanAnon said:

Allegiance: Tzeentch 
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Balewind Vortex (40)
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 38

Aside from what's visible, what other Daemons do I need to buy to get it going? So far my shopping list looks like this

Start Collecting Tzeentch (convert blue scribes out of chariot) 

Gaunt Summoner 

Ogroid

1x Pink box

4x Blues/Brims boxes

Does that sound right?

I mostly play pure Demons and they are good fun, but you've got to be really careful building list, especially at low points. Almost every unit is low on wounds (for the points) except for Blues and Brimstones, which means is very easy to get wiped out before you can summon in reinforcements (from Pinks splitting if nothing else).  So at 1k, I'd have 1 endless spell max to make sure you have enough bodies.

I don't think the blue scribes are worth it at this points level, once your pinks are dead you've only got 3 wizards left. Better to have a herald (on foot) to boost the MW output. If you really need a spell to go off, you've always got destiny dice.

Treacherous bond doesn't feel like the best choice on the Gaunt Summoner, it already has 9 wounds thanks to familiars. I'd recommend making it your General with Arcane Sacrifice and Bolt of Tzeentch spell, since it has two casts and doesn't want to get close, so makes a lot of use from the extra range and re-roll.

I'd loce to say put in some flamers and screamers, but neither are very good and you don't really have the spare points at this level for any.

[Qaz]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:06 AM, Magnus The Blue said:

Lots of points and potentially pinning your LoC down to your side of the battlefield and you'll still only get an ok summon turn 2 and maybe another turn 4. 

It is tempting to sit back and just shoot a spell through the portal every turn but my plan is slightly different. I plan to use the portal to snipe key character pieces like Hag queens, Bloodsecretors, knight incantors etc. Then move the LoC forward, either ignoring the portal entirely or have the pinks have fun throwing spells thought it. I think that's worth 60 points to have that utility but a lot more game time needed to see if it's worth it. 

Can always dispel the portal and summon it back if I need it. If it's not working out, the Doomblast Dirgehorn looks like a good replacement. 

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:06 AM, Magnus The Blue said:

I'd concentrate on max making the LoC tanky (Gryph feather and Incorporeal form is a personal favourite) and use it aggressively to keep the heat off the Tzaangors.

I have tried this build and it works but after awhile, people learn to bog down the big bird instead and keep vulnerable targets out of reach. It is tanky and hard to deal with though especially with Cogs' reroll saves. 

So, I am exploring other builds at the moment.  

[Magnus The Blue]

2 hours ago, Qaz said:

It is tempting to sit back and just shoot a spell through the portal every turn but my plan is slightly different. I plan to use the portal to snipe key character pieces like Hag queens, Bloodsecretors, knight incantors etc. Then move the LoC forward, either ignoring the portal entirely or have the pinks have fun throwing spells thought it. I think that's worth 60 points to have that utility but a lot more game time needed to see if it's worth it. 

Can always dispel the portal and summon it back if I need it. If it's not working out, the Doomblast Dirgehorn looks like a good replacement. 

...................

I have tried this build and it works but after awhile, people learn to bog down the big bird instead and keep vulnerable targets out of reach. It is tanky and hard to deal with though especially with Cogs' reroll saves. 

So, I am exploring other builds at the moment.  

Will be interesting to see how the portal goes for you. I do like the idea of being to throw out a long range Gate from the LoC turn one, potentially from outside dispel range.

Personally, not convinced by the Dirgehorn, since only the Shaman can cast and Germinds will have the same effect and some mortal wounds too (although obviously more likely to backfire).

[RaritanAnon]

8 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I mostly play pure Demons and they are good fun, but you've got to be really careful building list, especially at low points. Almost every unit is low on wounds (for the points) except for Blues and Brimstones, which means is very easy to get wiped out before you can summon in reinforcements (from Pinks splitting if nothing else).  So at 1k, I'd have 1 endless spell max to make sure you have enough bodies.

I don't think the blue scribes are worth it at this points level, once your pinks are dead you've only got 3 wizards left. Better to have a herald (on foot) to boost the MW output. If you really need a spell to go off, you've always got destiny dice.

Treacherous bond doesn't feel like the best choice on the Gaunt Summoner, it already has 9 wounds thanks to familiars. I'd recommend making it your General with Arcane Sacrifice and Bolt of Tzeentch spell, since it has two casts and doesn't want to get close, so makes a lot of use from the extra range and re-roll.

I'd loce to say put in some flamers and screamers, but neither are very good and you don't really have the spare points at this level for any.

That's saying a lot of words but not necessarily helping any lol. But I understand where you're coming from. Blue scribes is probably better for 2k, I agree. Easily swapped for herald. But do I even want a herald? 

If I drop the 140, and the two endless spells, I can fit in something like 6 screamers to backup the Ogroid (or vise versa) for combat. Or heck, 6 enlightened on foot can do that as well. It's something to consider at least. 

Allegiance: Tzeentch 

Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)

- General

- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 

- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch

Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)

- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 

- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

6 x Tzaangor Enlightened (200)

Balewind Vortex (40)

 

Total: 1000 / 1000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 200

Wounds: 51

 

 

[kenshin620]

On 9/23/2018 at 12:55 PM, Heroflegend21 said:

This might be a dumb question, but concerning the new beast of chaos and how closely it deals with Tzeentch units is it possible to add tzeentch arcanite or daemon units to a beasts of chaos army?

Technically in a BoC no, they can only take Slaves to Darkness as allies.

Assuming the battalion stuff though is god allegiance ok, you can take BoC in tzeentch armies as long as you pay a battalion tax. But that means no BoC army, so no herdstone or spells or beast summoning and the other fixings!

[tokek]

Can I call on the arcane wisdom of the community to sanity check an idea my son has for the next month in a local escalation league.

Magister General with Arcane Sacrifice

Use destiny dice to get a double to summon a Balewind Vortex

Get an extra spell for the double and can cast an additional spell from the Balewind rules

Perform Arcane Sacrifice  to get a net +15" range on spells and those precious re-rolls

Cast the extra spell gained with re-roll

Cast the additional spell from the Balewind with destiny dice to get a double - getting an extra spell

Cast the last extra spell with re-roll

Part of the point of this is to get maximum spell casts to build up a fate pool as quickly as he can -  the other part of it is to rain down mortal wounds from across the table and tie something up with a Spawn while he is at it.

So does that work as described or have we both missed some restriction or nuance that would not let it work? As a seraphon player I will admit to not knowing all things Tzeentch very well.

[FPC]

I don’t see a problem with that, just heavily contingent on doubles of mid to high destiny dice. Theoretically could use Cogs too for another extra.

Probably not too reliable and I’d wonder where this would really get you. Mark of the Conjuror would boost it a lot, tho.

Could also be missing something myself.

[tokek]

58 minutes ago, FPC said:

I don’t see a problem with that, just heavily contingent on doubles of mid to high destiny dice. Theoretically could use Cogs too for another extra.

Probably not too reliable and I’d wonder where this would really get you. Mark of the Conjuror would boost it a lot, tho.

Could also be missing something myself.

Well yes, not supposed to be the most reliable thing ever. He just wants to run his Arcanites as a cabal of wizards with the minimum possible minions - so maximise the spellcasting and turn his opponents into spawn/brimstones/tzaangors whenever possible.

Nice to know he has his rules straight though.

[RaritanAnon]

So I've got an idea for a list to compete in my local shop's hyper competitive meta. It's designed to be anti-meta and anti-fun, essentially. It's all in theory, though. Let me know what you think. 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Herald Of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Lord Of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch(70)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch(70)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch(70)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (100)
Multitudinous Host (240)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104
 

So the Horrors heal d3 each hero phase and can go above max size. Brimstones heal 1. Every death fuels the horror unit in front of it, and the pinks can be replenished with Fold Reality and their Banner. Not to mention however many Flamers, Screamers, and other Horrors I can summon in every turn.

I can swap the Gaunt out for an Ogroid if I'm fighting a more elite army and spawn Brimstones to tie up nasties, too. 

The issue herein is that I'll need something like 80 extra Blue Horrors and Brimstones. And like a good 20ish extra Pinks, however many Daemons of whatever I summon. 

On the other hand, it's also something like 200+ wounds to chew through. It may not kill quickly, but it's definitely survivable as long as I have a hero to keep summoning. 

What do you guys think? A fool's errand? 

[TheOtherJosh]

12 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

What do you guys think? A fool's errand? 

Possibly. But it also might turn out Just. As. Planned. 

[TheOtherJosh]

@RaritanAnon It might be worthwhile to consider “Treacherous Bond” on the Summoner.

It has the potential to make them much more resilient especially when using the horrors as the wound pool.