AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 hours ago, Paniere said:

Correct, they succeded in faqing up a ruleset before its official launch. Anyway this means that every pink that flees can still take petty vengeance , even though I'd rather remove a blue

No they can't, because Petty Vengeances trigger is Split and Split activates and you opt out of adding models. Split and Split again doesn't trigger off models that flee; so Petty Vengeance can't trigger.

[Brad999]

6 hours ago, Paniere said:

Correct, they succeded in faqing up a ruleset before its official launch. Anyway this means that every pink that flees can still take petty vengeance , even though I'd rather remove a blue

You don't get to choose to remove blues before pinks anyway? 

 

[Domize]

Seems flamers were hit yet again. Lost the +2 to 20 models which is fine and expected. But losing the +1 from the exalted flamer feels like a punch to the gut, considering together they went up by 75 points. 

[Paniere]

8 hours ago, Brad999 said:

You don't get to choose to remove blues before pinks anyway? 

 

When you allocate wounds or MW you must allocate them to pinks if any left. In any other case ( no pinks or no allocation, like for example for fleeing models due to BS) you get to choose.

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, Domize said:

Seems flamers were hit yet again. Lost the +2 to 20 models which is fine and expected. But losing the +1 from the exalted flamer feels like a punch to the gut, considering together they went up by 75 points. 

Ill think they'll do ok hitting with Unleash Hell on a 3+.

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Paniere said:

When you allocate wounds or MW you must allocate them to pinks if any left. In any other case ( no pinks or no allocation, like for example for fleeing models due to BS) you get to choose.

Oh that is quite true when you do battle shock you can pick who runs. Meaning you can just have blues run away rather than lose whole pinks.

 

How are chaos knights? 

Edited July 3, 2021 by mmimzie

[Jabbuk]

24 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Oh that is quite true when you do battle shock you can pick who runs. Meaning you can just have blues run away rather than lose whole pinks.

 

How are chaos knights? 

That's actually a good point. What do we do when we have a mixed unit and some horrors need to flee? What's is priority? Pinks? Blues? Whatever we want?

[Jabbuk]

23 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Horrors can still go over max size with split and it looks like they can still be healed based on the current wording, models that flee count as having been slain (just like in aos 2) so rally isn't a pain anymore, although they've been VERY explicit about horrors not splitting when they flee.

Horrors look to be in a pretty good spot.

 

Cult of the transient form got it's teeth kicked in again though. They have no such exception, so now you need to roll a 6 on a kairic that dies within 9" of a unit of tzaangors that has suffered a casualty.

I'm trying to figure out where to find all the info. This is a real puzzle. Could you point me to where it says that Horrors can't split when they flee?

On the warscroll of Horrors, it states that whenever a model is slain, it can split. Then on the latest FAQ, it says at 15.0 (Tzeentch FAQ): "...Models that have fled are treated as having been slain for rules purposes, unless noted otherwise."

So to me, it says that if a Pink Horror flees, it can split because it's considered slain. Where do you see otherwise?

Edited July 3, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Paniere]

23 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Where do you see otherwise?

[Jabbuk]

15 minutes ago, Paniere said:

Oh wow I missed it. Thanks Clearly stated here.

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Oh wow I missed it. Thanks Clearly stated here.

Yep and more or less confirms fleeing does not proc slain effects. Which means a lot of things. 

 

For one blue horrors and run over pinks (it'd be quite tough to have pinks in a unit with brims and blues in the current edition). 

[Chronos]

17 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Ill think they'll do ok hitting with Unleash Hell on a 3+.

How is this possible? Wouldn't they be hitting on 5+ if it's against units less than 10 models?

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 hours ago, Chronos said:

How is this possible? Wouldn't they be hitting on 5+ if it's against units less than 10 models?

Nevermind I missed the "delete" part. I assumed Capricious Warpflame would have had its own entry.

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Blitzd]

On 7/3/2021 at 12:38 AM, Ganigumo said:

Max size is starting size.

Where in the rules does it say that? If that's what they meant, they would have said starting size

[Sinfullyvannila]

17 minutes ago, Blitzd said:

Where in the rules does it say that? If that's what they meant, they would have said starting size

It doesn't say anywhere what it is. I believe they made similar rules in the past based on starting size. Now it seems like they wanted to formalize "Maximum size", but completely failed to define it. Its their typical technical writing malfeasance. They really need a technical editor.

[Blitzd]

3 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

It doesn't say anywhere what it is. I believe they made similar rules in the past based on starting size. Now it seems like they wanted to formalize "Maximum size", but completely failed to define it. Its their typical technical writing malfeasance. They really need a technical editor.

The problem is they've just added a new system that changes the maximum size a unit can be with reinforcement points, and looking at the plain English, that number looks to be what they are referring too. They also made a big deal about getting rid of unit maximums. While I suspect it should be starting size, without a definition, there's no way anyone can make a definitive statement like the poster I quoted did

[mmimzie]

These are problem with this stubbornness to stick with a physical product first mind set. If they embraced digital more a lot of these confusions and frustrations over rules clarity wouldn't be so bad if you knew they would patch it over the weekend it. 

 

But they are alittle afraid of being too aggressive with FAQs because they make the physical product less reliable to customers and hurts future sells or books. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, mmimzie said:

These are problem with this stubbornness to stick with a physical product first mind set. If they embraced digital more a lot of these confusions and frustrations over rules clarity wouldn't be so bad if you knew they would patch it over the weekend it. 

 

But they are alittle afraid of being too aggressive with FAQs because they make the physical product less reliable to customers and hurts future sells or books. 

Those are literally Frequently Asked Questions though. That's one of the reasons they send content creators books to leak a week in advance. Part of the deal is the content creators compile questions the audience ask to have a basis for the the FAQ.

You can't expect something like that to be ready on release day.

[Azog Thraka]

Where do we see tzeentch demons in the competitive rankings after the FAQ?  Mid-tier?  If someone were just getting started with tzeentch, would the start collecting box be a good place to start?

[AaronWilson]

After speaking to some playtesters on twitter - this is how I will be playing the rule. 

First thing - any model that flees cannot split and split again.

Any model that flees can be rallied, lifeswarmed or fold reality. 

You can never have more then 10 pinks, 20 blues & 20 brims in one unit.

If I start with 10 pinks, and get to a situation where I can have 5 pinks and 10 blues, I can attempt to rally / fold reality / emerald lifeswarm the other 5 pinks back into the unit. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by AaronWilson

[Paniere]

20 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

After speaking to some playtesters on twitter - this is how I will be playing the rule. 

First thing - any model that flees cannot split and split again.

Any model that flees can be rallied, lifeswarmed or fold reality. 

You can never have more then 10 pinks, 20 blues & 20 brims in one unit.

If I start with 10 pinks, and get to a situation where I can have 5 pinks and 10 blues, I can attempt to rally / fold reality / emerald lifeswarm the other 5 pinks back into the unit. 

I' d be very surprised if this will be the case: let's take your example. You rallied back 5 pinks, now you have 10 pinks and 10 blues. Let's say all 10 pinks die. I should have now 30 blues. I don't see what rule I'm violating by adding blues number 21 to 30. Split and split again allows me to do it.

[Paniere]

37 minutes ago, Azog Thraka said:

Where do we see tzeentch demons in the competitive rankings after the FAQ?  Mid-tier?  If someone were just getting started with tzeentch, would the start collecting box be a good place to start?

definitely top tier , if not S then A, but it's just a guess at this point

[Ganigumo]

Yeah Tzeentch is definitely still top tier, although it's possible our only top tier list now will be hosts arcanum archaon.

Horrors are still super efficient, and our magic is great. The flamer hits and changehost removal might've brought our eternal conflagration lists down a bit, but we should have the tools to play an A tier daemon list at least.

Arcanites got hit pretty hard again, but guild of summoners got a big buff in the spell lores enhancement and new cogs. GoS can run mixed mortal/daemon too. Probably not top tier, maybe B tier now? You can still get a lot of bodies on the board if you run pinks/gaunt summoners.

Cult of the Transient form is D tier, maybe F tier. They were already pretty bad (although I personally love the narrative of it) as they didn't get a rule saying they could add models over the max size. So now not only do you need a kairic to die in the combat phase within 9" of a tzaangor unit and roll a 6, you also need that tzaangor unit to have taken casualties. 

[Jabbuk]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Yeah Tzeentch is definitely still top tier, although it's possible our only top tier list now will be hosts arcanum archaon.

Horrors are still super efficient, and our magic is great. The flamer hits and changehost removal might've brought our eternal conflagration lists down a bit, but we should have the tools to play an A tier daemon list at least.

Arcanites got hit pretty hard again, but guild of summoners got a big buff in the spell lores enhancement and new cogs. GoS can run mixed mortal/daemon too. Probably not top tier, maybe B tier now? You can still get a lot of bodies on the board if you run pinks/gaunt summoners.

Cult of the Transient form is D tier, maybe F tier. They were already pretty bad (although I personally love the narrative of it) as they didn't get a rule saying they could add models over the max size. So now not only do you need a kairic to die in the combat phase within 9" of a tzaangor unit and roll a 6, you also need that tzaangor unit to have taken casualties. 

What about Pyrofane Cult though? I felt like from the guides and comments here, it was pretty good.

[Ganigumo]

2 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

What about Pyrofane Cult though? I felt like from the guides and comments here, it was pretty good.

Not quite sure where they're gonna land. Kairics went up a lot comparably to the rest of the game (25 points or 25% increase) especially for a unit that wasn't dominant or saw a lot of high level play.

Pyrofane cult losing the battalion that let a unit of kairics shoot in the hero phase is also a big deal I think. I think they were a solid mid tier army in 2.0, just overshadowed by the stronger tzeentch builds but I don't have a good feel for if they've dropped significantly.