AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Kasper]

On 4/24/2021 at 11:41 PM, Hannibal said:

Hi,

 

quick question regarding Kairos special rules.

 

From his warscroll: "In addition, while friendly Wizardsare wholly within 18" of him, Kairos Fateweaver knows any spells on those Wizards’ warscrolls that are possible for him to cast."

What does "that are possible for him to cast" really mean? What are some exceptions to this rule?

 

If the spell requires something like a wound table he is unable to cast that ability. Stuff like Gift of Change would not be possible for him to cast.

[Ganigumo]

16 hours ago, SAWhit88 said:

A new player looking for some advice.

I have collected a disciples of tzeentch force that I intend to make a little less squishy with S2D units (warriors, knights, warshrine). I would also like to run the Phantasmagoria of fate battalion as I like the look of BoC units, and I would like to have a cygor as a mage sniper with fate dice. My questions are:

- Has anyone got experience of running this battalion with DoT? Or does its ability to give non wizard units a chance to dispel work too much against the summoning mechanic?

- Would I be better off taking a ghorgon than a cygor?

Any advice/anecdotes welcome and my apologies for the noob questions! 

I've got a bit of experience with phantasmagoria of fate. The battalion effect is weak (9" range on dispels isn't great) but it lets you run a very low drop list. BoC units aren't particularly strong at the moment, but they're cheap and we can supplement it. I wouldn't worry about disrupting the summoning, generally it will be better to dispel a strong spell when you have the opportunity than to get a fate point out of it.
Both the Ghorgon and Cygor are particularly weak warscrolls right now, but you could definitely cheese a character out with a Cygor and couple of destiny dice (4 or 5 to hit for free, roll or use a 2 to wound, use a 4-6 for the damage). Ghorgon's damage isn't great and it brackets way too hard.
As for other units to bring in a Phantasmagoria of Fate:

• Battleline: Gors, Ungors, Tzaangors
  • Gors and Ungors are chaff, bring them to either sit on a back objective or stay in front and protect your other units
  • Tzaangors can actually be pretty good if built around, and phantasmagoria of Fate gives you the options to do that, just don't bring them in a unit of 10 (their damage falls off too quickly when they get under 9 models)
• Ungor Raiders: chaff with a pre-game move, you could bring a horde for some decent shooting but in Tzeentch you'd be better off just bringing some flamers
• Tzaangor Enlightened(on foot): stick them ~1" behind a chaff screen of gors/ungors and let them get charged. They get rerolls if they fight second and have a 2" attack range (just make sure they're close enough to pile in to whatever hits the screen.
• Enlightened on Disk/Bullgors/Bestigors: These are your hammers. They've all got different weaknesses so pick your poison
• Skyfires: Just a useful utility piece if you have the points, make sure to find opportunities to use them in melee or you'll be wasting your points, personally I love these guys.
• Heroes:
  • Great-Bray Shaman: gives extra move to brayherd units (including tzaangors), and his spell forces a unit to move 2d6" towards him. Stick him on a balewind or bring a spellportal, and some models on discs (like tzaangor shamans or skyfires) and pull enemy units off objectives to steal them for a turn. This can absolutely win you games. He can't take spells from the Tzeentch spell lores though, since he isn't mortal, daemon, or arcanite
  • Tzaangor Shaman: Fits in the battalion, and is the only wizard to fit into the battalion that gets to take spells from our spell lore
  • Grashrak Fellhoof (underworlds): Simply phenomenal, he fits in the battalion although his warband won't and will be an extra drop, but he has the same movement increasing aura as the great bray shaman, and a spell that deals d3 mortals to a unit and gives you a +1 to hit in melee against it.
• Disciples of Tzeentch stuff to consider bringing: Fatemaster, Blue Scribes, Kairos/LoC, flamers. These all bring something interesting to the list but will come at the cost of an extra drop.  

Unfortunately most of the subfactions don't really do much for phantasmagoria of fate, and the heroes we're bringing don't really have access to interesting artifact choices in our book.
This is basically the list I've been playing around with, and its definitely a more casual one because I've tried to build it around Guild of Summoners as well as phantasmagoria of fate. (spoilered because this post is really long already)
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Great Bray Shaman of Tzeentch (100)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Everspring Diadem
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Grashrak Fellhoof (140)

Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Ungors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Ungors of Tzeentch (60)

Units
10 x Ungor Raiders of Tzeentch (80)
10 x Ungor Raiders of Tzeentch (80)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131
 

 

[SAWhit88]

On 4/27/2021 at 3:28 PM, Ganigumo said:

I've got a bit of experience with phantasmagoria of fate. The battalion effect is weak (9" range on dispels isn't great) but it lets you run a very low drop list. BoC units aren't particularly strong at the moment, but they're cheap and we can supplement it. I wouldn't worry about disrupting the summoning, generally it will be better to dispel a strong spell when you have the opportunity than to get a fate point out of it.
Both the Ghorgon and Cygor are particularly weak warscrolls right now, but you could definitely cheese a character out with a Cygor and couple of destiny dice (4 or 5 to hit for free, roll or use a 2 to wound, use a 4-6 for the damage). Ghorgon's damage isn't great and it brackets way too hard.
As for other units to bring in a Phantasmagoria of Fate:

• Battleline: Gors, Ungors, Tzaangors
  • Gors and Ungors are chaff, bring them to either sit on a back objective or stay in front and protect your other units
  • Tzaangors can actually be pretty good if built around, and phantasmagoria of Fate gives you the options to do that, just don't bring them in a unit of 10 (their damage falls off too quickly when they get under 9 models)
• Ungor Raiders: chaff with a pre-game move, you could bring a horde for some decent shooting but in Tzeentch you'd be better off just bringing some flamers
• Tzaangor Enlightened(on foot): stick them ~1" behind a chaff screen of gors/ungors and let them get charged. They get rerolls if they fight second and have a 2" attack range (just make sure they're close enough to pile in to whatever hits the screen.
• Enlightened on Disk/Bullgors/Bestigors: These are your hammers. They've all got different weaknesses so pick your poison
• Skyfires: Just a useful utility piece if you have the points, make sure to find opportunities to use them in melee or you'll be wasting your points, personally I love these guys.
• Heroes:
  • Great-Bray Shaman: gives extra move to brayherd units (including tzaangors), and his spell forces a unit to move 2d6" towards him. Stick him on a balewind or bring a spellportal, and some models on discs (like tzaangor shamans or skyfires) and pull enemy units off objectives to steal them for a turn. This can absolutely win you games. He can't take spells from the Tzeentch spell lores though, since he isn't mortal, daemon, or arcanite
  • Tzaangor Shaman: Fits in the battalion, and is the only wizard to fit into the battalion that gets to take spells from our spell lore
  • Grashrak Fellhoof (underworlds): Simply phenomenal, he fits in the battalion although his warband won't and will be an extra drop, but he has the same movement increasing aura as the great bray shaman, and a spell that deals d3 mortals to a unit and gives you a +1 to hit in melee against it.
• Disciples of Tzeentch stuff to consider bringing: Fatemaster, Blue Scribes, Kairos/LoC, flamers. These all bring something interesting to the list but will come at the cost of an extra drop.  

Unfortunately most of the subfactions don't really do much for phantasmagoria of fate, and the heroes we're bringing don't really have access to interesting artifact choices in our book.
This is basically the list I've been playing around with, and its definitely a more casual one because I've tried to build it around Guild of Summoners as well as phantasmagoria of fate. (spoilered because this post is really long already)
 

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Great Bray Shaman of Tzeentch (100)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Everspring Diadem
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Grashrak Fellhoof (140)

Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Ungors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Ungors of Tzeentch (60)

Units
10 x Ungor Raiders of Tzeentch (80)
10 x Ungor Raiders of Tzeentch (80)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131
 

 

This is brilliant advice mate - thanks for taking the time to go into so much detail, it's really appreciated. Definitely got me buzzed to start building that army list. I had other questions ready but you've answered most of them - am surprised to hear you recommend Grashrak though, most of what I've read absolutely dumps on those warbands so you've got me intrigued! Thanks again for the response!

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:41 PM, SAWhit88 said:

A new player looking for some advice.

I have collected a disciples of tzeentch force that I intend to make a little less squishy with S2D units (warriors, knights, warshrine). I would also like to run the Phantasmagoria of fate battalion as I like the look of BoC units, and I would like to have a cygor as a mage sniper with fate dice. My questions are:

- Has anyone got experience of running this battalion with DoT? Or does its ability to give non wizard units a chance to dispel work too much against the summoning mechanic?

- Would I be better off taking a ghorgon than a cygor?

Any advice/anecdotes welcome and my apologies for the noob questions! 

If youre going for not-squishy Horrors are much more durable than the S2D models; assuming you have a Daemon hero to provide Locus and Inspiring Presence.

Ungors are an ok alternative but you'd be going for a different kind of durability. Just absolutely flooding the board with them an maneuvering them so that your opponent can only kill so many units per turn.

[NinthMusketeer]

Hey so maybe I missed the discussion already but did anyone else notice that flamingors are cannon as of Be'Lakor?

[Ganigumo]

7 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Hey so maybe I missed the discussion already but did anyone else notice that flamingors are cannon as of Be'Lakor?

Wait what? That's how i painted mine up!

[NinthMusketeer]

Page 18, first paragraph; "Periodically, bands of pink-skinned Tzaangors had emerged..."

[Malakithe]

Well...bye bye battalions...back to the drawing board lol

[NinthMusketeer]

So what's the deal with battalions? I can't stand the sound of the guy's voice in the leak video (seriously is it like sandpaper in the ears for anyone else?) So I am limited to second hand knowledge.

[jeremym]

38 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

So what's the deal with battalions? I can't stand the sound of the guy's voice in the leak video (seriously is it like sandpaper in the ears for anyone else?) So I am limited to second hand knowledge.

You're in luck, the official gw release today explaining some of the information. 

In short, faction specific battalions will no longer be supported in matched play. Instead being replaced with generalized battalions. These battalions are unknown at this time, but you can expect more information in the next few weeks. 

Thats it, the whole deal. Don't count on building around change host and doing a 1 drop. 

[NinthMusketeer]

Well that is at least one crapshow I am less worried about than excited to see how it splatters.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Well that is at least one crapshow I am less worried about than excited to see how it splatters.

Im less optimistic about it. I think the success of eliminating them is predicated on them absolutely nailing unit Warscroll balance and they seem utterly incapable of that.

[Ganigumo]

8 hours ago, jeremym said:

You're in luck, the official gw release today explaining some of the information. 

In short, faction specific battalions will no longer be supported in matched play. Instead being replaced with generalized battalions. These battalions are unknown at this time, but you can expect more information in the next few weeks. 

Thats it, the whole deal. Don't count on building around change host and doing a 1 drop. 

Do you have a source on that? Because in the interview as part of the reveal show they absolutely did not confirm the removal of warscroll battalions, just that "core battalions" address the issue of "haves" and "have nots". There's no reason core battalions and warscroll battalions can't coexist.

3 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Im less optimistic about it. I think the success of eliminating them is predicated on them absolutely nailing unit Warscroll balance and they seem utterly incapable of that.

Agreed. Battalions are part of an allegiance just like warscrolls, spells, and abilities. All removing warscroll battalions does is remove one level of rules, it doesn't actually address army power inequalities. That line of thinking is a joke when you consider BoC has pretty good battalions but Seraphon's best lists don't have any to suit them.

Theoretically the game is easier to balance in the long term, but we lose an interesting part of it, and in the short term the best we'll get is a mixup, and at worst the balance will be off even more as all the mid-low tier armies with good battalions drop off a cliff powerwise.

[NinthMusketeer]

9 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Im less optimistic about it. I think the success of eliminating them is predicated on them absolutely nailing unit Warscroll balance and they seem utterly incapable of that.

Oh don't get me wrong, I just have more or less abandoned matched play so it's not an issue I have to deal with. I will be quite surprised if it is not wildly imbalanced from the onset, but I am in a position where I can sit on the sidelines and go 'ouch that has got to hurt!'

[WargamerRyguy]

Quick question, when you pay 100 points to take 10 Blue Horrors, do you also get to split those 10 into 10 brimstone horrors when the Blue ones die, without paying additional points? Thanks

[Jabbuk]

12 hours ago, WargamerRyguy said:

Quick question, when you pay 100 points to take 10 Blue Horrors, do you also get to split those 10 into 10 brimstone horrors when the Blue ones die, without paying additional points? Thanks

Yes. They're all part of the "Horrors of Tzeentch" warscroll now.

[WargamerRyguy]

6 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Yes. They're all part of the "Horrors of Tzeentch" warscroll now.

Great, thank you! 

[Jabbuk]

I managed to finish and paint my Fatemaster conversion. I thought I'd post it here. Thanks to some of you who shared theirs many, many pages back. It sure inspired me. 

[CountryMou3e]

anyone had any fun with sigvald allied in ? He looks like a great body guard for a loc

[ireland012]

Hey lords of change,

I just had some custom Tzeentch dice made up.  Would anyone be interested in a set?  $40 per 50 dice plus shipping, US based.  Let me know!

[CarkFish]

On 5/9/2021 at 6:06 AM, jeremym said:

You're in luck, the official gw release today explaining some of the information. 

In short, faction specific battalions will no longer be supported in matched play. Instead being replaced with generalized battalions. These battalions are unknown at this time, but you can expect more information in the next few weeks. 

Thats it, the whole deal. Don't count on building around change host and doing a 1 drop. 

I missed this ... Are you able to link me to where they day battalions are gone?

[Ganigumo]

7 hours ago, CarkFish said:

I missed this ... Are you able to link me to where they day battalions are gone?

It's not confirmed yet, but its a possibility. It was in a video where they were discussing some of the things for 3rd edition. They said something along the lines of "The new core battalions address the haves and have-nots quite well". The introduction of core battalions alone addresses this to an extent, the removal of warscroll battalions also does. To me the addition of core battalions is a slam dunk, but removing warscroll battalions takes out an interesting part of the game and doesn't improve balance AT ALL in the short term anyways (some strong armies have bad battalions, and some bad armies have good battalions).

So it's confirmed we're getting generic battalions in the core rule book, but not confirmed that allegiance battalions will be unavailable in matched play yet, although one one of the leakers that hasn't been wrong yet said they would be removed (Personally I'm still skeptical since the guy had a tendency to gloss over the small important details).

It certainly looks like the direction we're going in is one without allegiance battalions but I wouldn't put down money on either outcome. They changed nighthaunt battalions into subfactions, which seems to imply they're going away, but they also printed like 6 Gloomspite warscrolls in Kragnos (although that might have just been GW being lazy and copy pasting the white dwarf stuff)

[Rellsipels]

This sounds absolutely crazy with Horrors. I'm convinced they'll make some changes to the Horrors warscroll, or something, to make this a bit more reasonable. What changes, if any, would you like to see? Or not see?

[Craze]

1 hour ago, Rellsipels said:

This sounds absolutely crazy with Horrors. I'm convinced they'll make some changes to the Horrors warscroll, or something, to make this a bit more reasonable. What changes, if any, would you like to see? Or not see?

The picture doesn't show. Could you elaborate what it is about?

[Rellsipels]

56 minutes ago, Craze said:

The picture doesn't show. Could you elaborate what it is about?

Oops. Yeah its the new Rally command ability that let's you resurrect models. From this article.