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1 hour ago, Ragest said:

Ok guys, my Aos group has been arguing for 5 hours about if the horrors split failing battleshocks or not.

 

So, what do you think guys?

They count as slain, therefore they split

 

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Models lost to battleshock aren't slain, so you don't get to split, however you don't need to remove pinks first if they are fleeing due to battleshock, the warscroll only states that you must allocate wounds to pinks first.

Per the rules on battleshock:
 

They are counted as being slain, but fled, so they do not split.

Per the Horror Warscroll:
 

You only need to allocate wounds to pinks, not force them to flee first, and you only split when the model is slain (which it doesn't if it is lost to battleshock because it "flees" instead)

Incorrect, they are in fact Slain as battleshock very specifically tells you that they're slain. Its irrelevant that they "fled" because it says they count as being slain.

The horror warscroll is not laid out in a way that says they need to take wounds to split.. it literally just says "when they're slain" they split, regardless of how they're slain. I wasn't 100% on it either.. but having talked with others, this is how it's done.

Edited by Gwendar
typo's\clarifications
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13 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

They count as slain, therefore they split

 

Incorrect, they are in fact Slain as battleshock very specifically tells you that they're slain. Its irrelevant that they "fled" because it says they count as being slain.

The horror warscroll is not laid out in a way that says they need to take wounds to split.. it literally just says "when they're slain" they split, regardless of how they're slain. I wasn't 100% on it either.. but having talked with others, this is how it's done.

Sounds like we need an actual FAQ/Errata on this. If the fleeing models were intended to be handled the same way as being slain it would be:

 

Quote

. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit is slain. You decide which of the models from your units are slain – remove them from play and count them as having been slain  This represents the model fleeing.

I've bolded the changes. The original rule again
 

Quote

. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain


Does "remove them from play and count them as having been slain" mean the same thing as slain? I think it clear from the way its worded this isn't the intention although this may not be worded clearly enough. The models are "removed from play" before they are counted as slain from my interpretation.

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10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Sounds like we need an actual FAQ/Errata on this. If the fleeing models were intended to be handled the same way as being slain it would be:

 

I've bolded the changes. The original rule again
 


Does "remove them from play and count them as having been slain" mean the same thing as slain? I think it clear from the way its worded this isn't the intention although this may not be worded clearly enough. The models are "removed from play" before they are counted as slain from my interpretation.

Yes, because you're counting them as being slain. Intention doesn't matter in this case since is purely a RAW question. The OOO doesn't matter here in my opinion as the final word is "they are counted as slain" and therefore they would split. I don't disagree it needs an FAQ, so I would send it in since we should be getting the December FAQs in.. well, December 😅

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I think the warscroll is missing one simple line of text, or they have decided that we should take the rule literally and go on.

At any case, i think it needs a faq aswell. It’s an important question about one of the most important mechanic of all army.

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1 minute ago, Ragest said:

I think the warscroll is missing one simple line of text, or they have decided that we should take the rule literally and go on.

At any case, i think it needs a faq aswell. It’s an important question about one of the most important mechanic of all army.

There's a few other cases where things trigger due to models being slain via battleshock, it hasn't just applied to Horrors. If they intend it to be different, then the wording of battleshock needs to leave out the "counts as slain" thing and have Fleeing be its own thing.

For now, RAW they split when being slain via battleshock.

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Just now, Gwendar said:

There's a few other cases where things trigger due to models being slain via battleshock, it hasn't just applied to Horrors. If they intend it to be different, then the wording of battleshock needs to leave out the "counts as slain" thing and have Fleeing be its own thing.

For now, RAW they split when being slain via battleshock.

"Fleeing" is explicitly mentioned on certain warscrolls (squig herd and Flagellants at least), and so is "removed from play". In Morathi's case the small one is removed from play but doesn't count as being slain.

The "counts as slain" part is absolutely crucial to the rule since otherwise fleeing models wouldn't count towards victory conditions.

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10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

"Fleeing" is explicitly mentioned on certain warscrolls (squig herd and Flagellants at least), and so is "removed from play". In Morathi's case the small one is removed from play but doesn't count as being slain.

The "counts as slain" part is absolutely crucial to the rule since otherwise fleeing models wouldn't count towards victory conditions.

Then I can only assume the upcoming 3rd edition may do something.. I don't know if it's really something that has had enough contention to be included in the December FAQ since it's been a thing for awhile as has been stated.

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To me it's crystal clear that models lost to battleshock count as slain, therefore Horrors split.

Also, using the argument "If GW meant the rule to work like that they would have said specifically this" hasn't ever worked, because for the last 20+ years GW rules have been worded poorly. Same discussions happen in DnD language; you can't assume you know the intent of the designers just because you think there's a better way they could have phrased something. 

Edited by Freejack02
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18 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

To me it's crystal clear that models lost to battleshock count as slain, therefore Horrors split.

Also, using the argument "If GW meant the rule to work like that they would have said specifically this" hasn't ever worked, because for the last 20+ years GW rules have been worded poorly. Same discussions happen in DnD language; you can't assume you know the intent of the designers just because you think there's a better way they could have phrased something. 

If this is true, why with the frenzy of the skavens they don't pile in and attack when their models flee? Or why the flee models don't count with the Chalice of Ushoran?

I'm not very sure with all of that. We are using "as slain" in some cases and not in others....

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1 hour ago, Nezzhil said:

If this is true, why with the frenzy of the skavens they don't pile in and attack when their models flee? Or why the flee models don't count with the Chalice of Ushoran?

I'm not very sure with all of that. We are using "as slain" in some cases and not in others....

The Death Frenzy should work too. Otherwise what is the intention of "count as slain" at all then? Is it just for the old system of tiebreakers? It sounds like an awful mess if you have to keep track of what models died and what models fled from battleshock in regards to return/healing mechanics etc.

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32 minutes ago, Kasper said:

The Death Frenzy should work too. Otherwise what is the intention of "count as slain" at all then? Is it just for the old system of tiebreakers? It sounds like an awful mess if you have to keep track of what models died and what models fled from battleshock in regards to return/healing mechanics etc.

But it wasn't a problem a year ago. 

Another point is the FAQs difference fled models and slain models.

I think that during the last year the RAW is becoming crazy and we are forgotten some things in the past Battletomes and older rules or FAQs because we need to justify the power creep and the points cost of some units.

Edited by Nezzhil
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31 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

But it wasn't a problem a year ago. 

Another point is the FAQs difference fled models and slain models.

I think that during the last year the RAW is becoming crazy and we are forgotten some things in the past Battletomes and older rules or FAQs because we need to justify the power creep and the points cost of some units.

I cant find anywhere that describes the difference between "fled models that count as being slain" and straight up "slain models". Ultimately the model is dead and removed from play. Honestly I think the RAI is becoming "just as crazy". People make up their own rules and interpretations of rules, instead of keeping things simpler and just looking at what the rules say.

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2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I cant find anywhere that describes the difference between "fled models that count as being slain" and straight up "slain models". Ultimately the model is dead and removed from play. Honestly I think the RAI is becoming "just as crazy". People make up their own rules and interpretations of rules, instead of keeping things simpler and just looking at what the rules say.

"Some abilities refer to units that have been ‘destroyed’. What does this mean exactly?
A: A unit is considered to be destroyed when the last model from the unit is slain or flees. When measuring the range to a destroyed unit, measure to the position occupied by the last model in the unit to be slain or flee."

A model that fled is not dead. You can't add words to the rule too. A model that flee is removed from the game and it count as slain, but it isn't slain. Why do you need to add all this verbose when the slain rule remove the models from the game too? They could said "then slain X numbers of models from the unit" or something like that.

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28 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

"Some abilities refer to units that have been ‘destroyed’. What does this mean exactly?
A: A unit is considered to be destroyed when the last model from the unit is slain or flees. When measuring the range to a destroyed unit, measure to the position occupied by the last model in the unit to be slain or flee."

 

A model that fled is not dead. You can't add words to the rule too. A model that flee is removed from the game and it count as slain, but it isn't slain. Why do you need to add all this verbose when the slain rule remove the models from the game too? They could said "then slain X numbers of models from the unit" or something like that.

Im just not convinced that this directly describes the difference between "count as slain" and "is slain" as you so desire it to be. The answer just explains that a unit is destroyed and count towards things such as kill points etc. regardless if you remove the unit due to a failed battleshock, or if it has been wiped in combat. 

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10 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Im just not convinced that this directly describes the difference between "count as slain" and "is slain" as you so desire it to be. The answer just explains that a unit is destroyed and count towards things such as kill points etc. regardless if you remove the unit due to a failed battleshock, or if it has been wiped in combat. 

Ok, but that implies that only the Tzeentch players are clever to understand that. The general consensus is that I expect o see a lot of Skaven player using the Death Frenzy + Warbringer spell, or Ossiarch players using the fled models with a Harvester, or the STD or FeC Endless Spell counting the fled models. But, all these powerful strategies are dismissed and I don't understand why.

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Yeah that’s something i was thinking, why i never see a std player counting “slains” in battleshock for the sigil, or fec or skaven, as you already said. It’s like everyone has decided to use the rules for this scenario and forget about the rest of the mechanics.

Thah should be all or anyone, and if you do this to everyone i think qe are going to see things worse than one pink splitting into two.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nezzhil said:

Ok, but that implies that only the Tzeentch players are clever to understand that. The general consensus is that I expect o see a lot of Skaven player using the Death Frenzy + Warbringer spell, or Ossiarch players using the fled models with a Harvester, or the STD or FeC Endless Spell counting the fled models. But, all these powerful strategies are dismissed and I don't understand why.

I dont see why the other abilities shouldnt work. OBR is immune to battleshock.

Do you really propose that FEC players keep track of exactly what models fled to battleshock and what models died in combat/shooting/magic? Because surely you cant return slain models with the Chalice if they fled, right? 

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6 hours ago, Kasper said:

The Death Frenzy should work too. Otherwise what is the intention of "count as slain" at all then? Is it just for the old system of tiebreakers? It sounds like an awful mess if you have to keep track of what models died and what models fled from battleshock in regards to return/healing mechanics etc.

 

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

I dont see why the other abilities shouldnt work. OBR is immune to battleshock.

Do you really propose that FEC players keep track of exactly what models fled to battleshock and what models died in combat/shooting/magic? Because surely you cant return slain models with the Chalice if they fled, right? 

The intention of "count as slain" is so that they still count towards victory conditions, and can be healed back, while not triggered "on slain" effects. This statement exists explicitly for these purposes. 

The "counts as slain" part is so that we don't need to keep track of which models fled and which models were slain.

The model is never slain. It is "removed from play" then after it is removed you treat it as having been slain.
There are other rules in the game which reference "fleeing" directly(squig herds, any rule that adds models to the number that flee), and rules which reference being removed from play without being slain (morathi). The context of the rules make it very clear that fleeing is different from being slain.

"Counts as slain" does not mean the same thing as "slain", not only are there linguistic implications to the "counts as" part (you don't need to "count as" something you already are, and the statement if the model is supposed to be slain literally means "slain models count as slain"), but the context around it heavily suggests this as well.

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And we have some FAQs that like this:

"Q: Some abilities allow you to remove a unit from the battlefield and set it up again, and say that this ‘counts as their move for the movement phase’ (or words to that effect). Do these units count as having made a move for the purposes of any other rules or abilities? A: No, it simply restricts them from making a move later  on."

When an effect is "as other state", it is only applicable to the evaluate the state of a model but it can't be used to trigger other effects caused by abilities.

For example: "You can attack with a unit in the Hero phase that model but you can't use CT of the combat phase because you are not in the combat phase." or "You can return models that were slain but the moment when a model was removed by a battleshock don't trigger the slain event".

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Listen guys, I know it seems weird but there are no restrictions in the rules on what 'counts as slain' means. Currently the only direct interpretation is that the models count as slain for all purposes. The rules don't say 'count as slain for the purposes of victory conditions' or 'count as slain except for the purposes of triggering special rules', they say 'count as slain'. That means they count as slain, full stop. We have a restriction for 'counts as their move' due to the FAQ, but nothing for slain. Until we have a restriction or an FAQ, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that supports your argument directly and telling people that they're wrong when using the rules as written is silly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they FAQ it later to support your arguments, but as of right now they're only based on your feelings of what you think should be correct. A model that flees counts as slain, and all things that apply to slain apply to fleeing. 

As for other triggers that work with slain, there are usually limits on them that keep them from working in the battleshock phase. I don't know Skaven, but I do know Khorne blood warriors for example say 'If a model from this unit is slain in the combat phase'. There are similar limitations on skullreapers and the bood tithe table, but nothing on wrathmongers. GW could have easily applied a similar limitation on Horrors like 'when this model is slain in any phase other than battleshock', but they didn't. If you want to house rule it with your play group so that it makes more sense for you then sure, more power to you. Just don't come online and tell people that your house rules are the right way to play the game and using the rules as written is somehow wrong.

Edited by Grimrock
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13 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Listen guys, I know it seems weird but there are no restrictions in the rules on what 'counts as slain' means. Currently as the rules are written the only direct interpretation is that the models count as slain for all purposes. It doesn't say 'counts as slain for the purposes of victory conditions' or 'counts as slain except for the purposes of triggering special rules', it says 'counts as slain'. That means they count as slain, full stop. We have a restriction for 'counts as their move' due to the FAQ, but nothing for slain. Until we have a restriction or an FAQ, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that supports your argument directly and telling people that they're wrong when using the rules as written is silly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they FAQ it later to support your arguments, but as of right now they're only based on your feelings of what you think should be correct. A model that flees counts as slain, and all things that apply to slain apply to fleeing. 

As for other triggers that work with slain, there are usually limits on them that keep them from working in the battleshock phase. I don't know Skaven, but I do know Khorne blood warriors for example say 'If a model from this unit is slain in the combat phase'. There are similar limitations on skullreapers and the bood tithe table, but nothing on wrathmongers. GW could have easily applied a similar limitation on Horrors like 'when this model is slain in any phase other than battleshock', but they didn't. 

The Skaven is at any moment, the Ushoran is at any moment, the Icon is at any moment and we never apply that.

Your statement implies that AoS core rules are trash. If we can't use the wording of the FAQs to resolve question like "what it means 'as X'" it implies that none of the abilities could be evaluated as RAW because none of the words are FAQed and well explained for all the cases and purposes.

I can argue that as RAW "'as count' is not 100% equal to 'is'" because a FAQ restricts the "as count" and it is the only reference we have that explains what it is "as count" for the wording of the rules. 

Edited by Nezzhil
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These are the definitions in the rules

Slain: Place a slain model to one side – it is removed from play.

Flee: remove them from play and count them as having been slain.

Split units are also counted as being slain, but not as having fled.

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30 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

The Skaven is at any moment, the Ushoran is at any moment, the Icon is at any moment and we never apply that.

Your statement implies that AoS core rules are trash. If we can't use the wording of the FAQs to resolve question like "what it means 'as X'" it implies that none of the abilities could be evaluated as RAW because none of the words are FAQed and well explained for all the cases and purposes.

I can argue that as RAW "'as count' is not 100% equal to 'is'" because a FAQ restricts the "as count" and it is the only reference we have that explains what it is "as count" for the wording of the rules. 

There are definitely instances where 'count as' are not equal to the original statement, and that makes perfect sense because what would be the point of saying 'count as' in the first place? The issue with this rule is that there are no limiters to the statement to define what 'count as' means. We can guess at it all day long, but there is nothing in the rules to support those guesses. You can say that a model counting as slain shouldn't get the benefit of one rule or another because it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't suddenly make it a core rule. I could just as easily say that 'count as slain' is only there to prevent a unit from being able to heal those models back, but that's just me adding my own interpretation to the rules. Until we get an FAQ or clarification, counts as slain can mean nothing other than counts as slain. 

Edited by Grimrock
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4 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Well then I'm sorry to say but you've been playing those rules wrong.

There are definitely instances where 'count as' are not equal to the original statement, and that makes perfect sense because what would be the point of saying 'count as' in the first place? The issue with this rule is that there are no limiters to the statement to define what 'count as' means. We can guess at it all day long, but there is nothing in the rules to support those guesses. You can say that a model counting as slain shouldn't get the benefit of one rule or another because it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't suddenly make it a core rule. Until we get an FAQ or clarification, counts as slain can mean nothing other than counts as slain. 

Why is your argument the truth and am I wrong?
I'm assuming that the wording of any FAQ is applied to all the cases with the same wording. You are assuming that the game didn't contain any wording and all the cases must be explained, as a player of a lot of games that is unthinkable to me.

Please tell me a FAQ that said "as count" implies all the possible effects.

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8 hours ago, Nezzhil said:

Why do you need to add all this verbose when the slain rule remove the models from the game too? They could said "then slain X numbers of models from the unit" or something like that.

Sure, they could have written that - but again this is a poor argument; just because you think something could have been worded differently doesn't change what it says. 

Edited by Freejack02
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