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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

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2 minutes ago, HMB said:

thank you so much!! I will test something in future 

You're welcome.

Just to correct myself though - The Cult of a Thousand Eyes coven from Wrath of the Everchosen book, might not be the best for the Tzaangors as Tzaangors don't have the "Mortal" Keyword, and the coven focuses on Mortals - apologies for that just wanted to correct it.

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@Gwendarye maybe blue scribes can be strong for portal casted with 2+ . Maybe swapping changecaster and balewind . U lose d6 damage spell but u make your emglighted better. I domt know but feel loke if i play 6 emglighted,  +1 to hit make my damage output mutch better!:)

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11 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

@Gwendarye maybe blue scribes can be strong for portal casted with 2+ . Maybe swapping changecaster and balewind . U lose d6 damage spell but u make your emglighted better. I domt know but feel loke if i play 6 emglighted,  +1 to hit make my damage output mutch better!:)

Yeah, he's usually the one that's casting the Portal in those lists T1. After that he's just on Tzeentch's Firestorm duty and running across the table to summon Blues onto objectives.

Again, I don't personally think it's worth losing the Changecaster on BW either 😅. The point of the list is to sit back 1-2 turns, spam magic, generate bodies and keep things locked down with Chaos Spawn\Horrors. +1 to hit will give them ~3-5 more damage on average.. but you then lose two d6 MW spells (Bolt of Tzeentch and Pink Fire) at 24" just so you can gain that Shaman.

Like I always say, give it a try.. but I usually only think a Shaman is worth it if I'm running 6 Skyfires and 6 Enlightened at least.. but at that point, I'm not running a caster based list and I'm likely building into Hosts Arcanum or something.

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6 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Hey mate, are you mostly running Daemons or Mortals/Arcanites? Are you after more magic/shooting/combat that kind of thing?

Probably more daemon with some shooting and magic of course. Something around horrors. I have all the entries and numerous troops so I can do whatever

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Im kinda new to tzeentch, how skyshoal coven works? It says a unit make a NORMAL move, so i cant charge enemy unit and pass across with the charge move? ( like terradonts) . I can only pass across in movement phase? Maybe a retreat too? Thx all ! :)

Edited by Tizianolol

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1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Im kinda new to tzeentch, how skyshoal coven works? It says a unit make a NORMAL move, so i cant charge enemy unit and pass across with the charge move? ( like terradonts) . I can only pass across in movement phase? Maybe a retreat too? Thx all ! :)

Correct, the MW's only go off in the movement phase (so yeah, a retreat as well).

Just my input, but Skyshoal isn't super worth it in practice. You'll hardly ever get to fly over something and the units of 3 make it hard to get the most of out the units RR's. Even if you do fly over, you only pick 1 unit to do MW's to.. even if you passed over 3.

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@Asimov then if you're into the shooting and Magic with Daemons and Horrors, I'd say check out the Changehost Battalion coupled with the Eternal Conflagration Coven. This is mostly the most competitive Daemons build at the present, as it's got a lot of Magic, Shooting and if you buff your units correctly, can ht pretty hard in Melee as well. Especially if you're using the Chamon Realm. 

There's a lot fo lists floating around for the Changehost and Eternal Conflag combo, and  a few that are floating around this Forum a few posts back, but in the spirit of laziness, here is a list that I have written for you as a base* of what it may look like, depending on what you have in your collection:

image.png.28e324f2979607900afacf6c5b88235b.png 

*This is just a rough guide though, but leaves you 50 points to play with for the extra CP (recommend taking) or extra endless spell.

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3 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

(so yeah, a retreat as well).

Didn't even think of that! You the man!

Agree it's not really worth it, costs too much for what it is and offers and most of the time you probs wont be trying to fly over stuff JUST to do MWs, even with their high movement.

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Had a great game on Sunday against a Soulblight list (never played them before)/. We ended up playing total commitment, which I think is an awesome scenario for tzeentch as it allows us to build up some momentum with spells, summoning, movement/blocking etc and the fact that it's played on such a long board means that even if you take turn 1 then get double turned it doesn't hit as hard as it would Turn 1.

I played my Pyrofane/Witchfyre coven combo and it worked well. Had a big blob of 30 Kairics that just couldnt do much because he made me -1 to hit from his Hero's aura, which even with the re-rolls from the fatey boi still hurts a bit tbh. Must say, anything on a zombie dragon or terrorgheist just hits so hard and turned my big blob of kairics into a melted ice cream sandwhich on a hot aussy summer day!

Still managed to get the win in the end, but it was mostly down to the high movement of the enlightened on disc, the summoning of blues in my back line and him just not prioritizing his movement.

The gent I played was awesome, plays a lot fo 9thEd still and not much AOS so he was a bit green on the rules etc, so I feel like with the list he took and if he had of been up to speed with the current meta, he may have snagged the win in the end but I ended up getting it on points.

Took the extra CP this list and yeah it really helps. Especially because by turn 2 I had 4 and having that safety net for battleshock on both horrors and kairics is ust great!

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So I finally got a game in with my phantasmagoria of Fate guild of summoners and it went pretty poorly for me. The list:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Great Bray Shaman of Tzeentch (100)
Great Bray Shaman of Tzeentch (100)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Everspring Diadem
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum

Battleline
10 x Gors of Tzeentch (70)
10 x Gors of Tzeentch (70)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (100)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
10 x Ungor Raiders of Tzeentch (80)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

We played battle for the pass and he was playing nurgle, he brought a couple blightking 5 mans, a 6 man plague drone unit, a 2 man blightlord unit, 30 plaguebearwrs, a guo and a few other heroes.

I took first turn and had my balewind dispelled despite having the rerolls from scribes and an arcane terrain. Which pushed my first LoC summon to t2, and my second to t4, when I had already lost.

My 20 tzaangors got charged by a 5 man unit of blightkings, and did nearly 0 damage over 4 combat phases, only getting freed up when the LoC could start blasting them.

The first turn of the enlightened on foot went fine, using a gor screen to get rerolls and killing 1.5 plague drones in a single phase, but didn't last long after.

Skyfires did nothing. I shot the GuO with both units, did 3 damage, and then he healed it and they got stuck in combat against drones/blightlords, doing very little damage, even with full rerolls most combats.

Gors and ungors sat on points, or worked as chaff, they did their job.

MVP was a bray shaman I put on a balewind. I was able to steal a few objectives for a turn by dragging units off the objective.

My destiny die rolls were ABYSMAL, 5 4s, 3 3s, and a 2, and I know I rolled pretty poorly overall, and my opponents rolls were fire (seriously, that 5++ felt like a 3++, I put about 15 mortal wounds into the GUO in one phase, and he only took 5 or 6, and there were similar rolls for the blightlords and plague drones).

I made some mistakes that may have turned the game though, I shouldnt have bothered attacking the GUO at all, and instead focused on the other units. I tried to explode a unit of blightkings on t4, to get it off the objective, but I should have blasted the harbinger of decay instead, and just used the bray shaman to pull the blightkings off the point (which I ended up doing anyways). I also should have pulled my gors off my objective, that I couldnt hold against the plaguebearers, and moved to try to help cap another objective.

 

I could play better, but the list could do with some work too, skyfires were sketchy, and without the LoC my damage output is far too low, I'll need to find something else, or maybe change subfactions.

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@Ganigumo it really hurts how the LOC you get from Guild has to come in at the end of the Movement phase. Like you probably learnt, if you get it in Turn 2 it's not done much and then there's a high chance your opponent is in position to really cripple your summoning based on their positioning, or even just kill it once it's been brought in! The real bonus from Guild is the 12" immune to battleshock and the 4+ extra CP I reckon!

I think you could easily swap out those Tzaangors on foot for Bestigors (if you have them?) as they are cheaper, hit as hard if not better and have similar stats im pretty sure.

Yeah unfortunately Skyfires are currently underwhelming. Enlightened on Disc are just better in value, in my opinion. I think if they saw a points drop in the future then they would be more viable! But hey, at least you got to experience them. Their combat isn;t that bad though, just doesn't compare to enlightened.

Maybe try Hosts Arcanum if you take more stuff on discs, because you get the free screamers, shamans and enlightened on disc could move a bit pre game etc and it gives you the auto unbinds against your enemy.

Blightkings hit very hard. I hate going up against them, but they are slow! Which is good!

thanks for the write up!

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@RUNCMD

Sadly I don't have any bestigors yet, or in my immediate future as I'll be starting work on my sons of behemat army. Although something that surprised me this game was how useful the banner was, since I had 5-6 wizards it put out some decent damage.

I think getting the LoC on turn 1 is fine if you go first, since the first hero phase is usually low impact so you wouldnt lose out on much.

The extra CP and battleshock immunity was very useful though.

I could try some enlightened on disc as a hammer unit, I'm also considering working curseling and Grashrak into the list. If I switch subfactions I'll probably go factionless i think, and bring in a Fatemaster.

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@Ganigumo I agree LOC turn 1 is preferable and fine. Turn 2 it hurts a bit more.

fatemaster is great. I'm having a lot of success with him at the present with my current list, but will try GOS coven soon to see if he is more effective with the battleshock immunity artifact.

I'm not sold on the Curseling at the present. I have used him a couple of times and found he didn't do that great, so if you have a good experience with him I'd be interested to know.

Enlightened for the Hammer is great, then coupling with something as a screen to make sure they don't get charged is even better and almost acts as a small anvil!

Just read Grashak's warscroll, he looks great!

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If warscroll of skyshoal was lime terradont ( you can pass across during charge too) it was worth  imo. Like that its usless. I dont know why GW design battalion like that:(

 

Abother question, what do you think about arcanite cabal and how it works?:)

Edited by Tizianolol

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9 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The extra CP and battleshock immunity was very useful though.

This effectively means you cant use your fate dice of 1s on the Pinks to bring D6 back though? Since they are immune in the first place and hence wont be able to even take the test. 

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11 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

@Asimov then if you're into the shooting and Magic with Daemons and Horrors, I'd say check out the Changehost Battalion coupled with the Eternal Conflagration Coven. This is mostly the most competitive Daemons build at the present, as it's got a lot of Magic, Shooting and if you buff your units correctly, can ht pretty hard in Melee as well. Especially if you're using the Chamon Realm. 

There's a lot fo lists floating around for the Changehost and Eternal Conflag combo, and  a few that are floating around this Forum a few posts back, but in the spirit of laziness, here is a list that I have written for you as a base* of what it may look like, depending on what you have in your collection:

image.png.28e324f2979607900afacf6c5b88235b.png 

*This is just a rough guide though, but leaves you 50 points to play with for the extra CP (recommend taking) or extra endless spell.

Are Flamers only worthwhile within Eternal Conflag, or are they reasonable in Hosts Duplicitous?

I thought about this list below. It is built mainly from 2 SC:Tzeentch + LoC + Blue/Brim boxes.

1st SC building Changecaster + 3 Flamers + 1 Exalted (no disc) + 10 Pinks

2nd SC building Fluxmaster on the Disc from the first SC + 3 Flamers + 10 Pinks.

This would leave me with 6 screamers + 1 disc + exalted leftover. Might be able to sell them or keep them for later, dont know yet. Seems reasonably cheap to buy into.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Units
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 90

 

Edited by Kasper

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12 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

@Asimov then if you're into the shooting and Magic with Daemons and Horrors, I'd say check out the Changehost Battalion coupled with the Eternal Conflagration Coven. This is mostly the most competitive Daemons build at the present, as it's got a lot of Magic, Shooting and if you buff your units correctly, can ht pretty hard in Melee as well. Especially if you're using the Chamon Realm. 

There's a lot fo lists floating around for the Changehost and Eternal Conflag combo, and  a few that are floating around this Forum a few posts back, but in the spirit of laziness, here is a list that I have written for you as a base* of what it may look like, depending on what you have in your collection:

image.png.28e324f2979607900afacf6c5b88235b.png 

*This is just a rough guide though, but leaves you 50 points to play with for the extra CP (recommend taking) or extra endless spell.

Thanks a lot! This will do perfectly

Do you think it is worth to take a chaos spawn with the extra 50? or the extra CP for 50 is still a thing?

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4 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Abother question, what do you think about arcanite cabal and how it works?:)

I dunno, that one's a little harder to gauge. I think the cost of 140 for it is steep but the effect is nice, even if it only affects 1 of the heroes (hence if that hero you chose dies, you no longer gain the effect of the battalion) but I don't think it brings enough to be worth it overall. At least not in my book.

 

2 hours ago, Kasper said:

This effectively means you cant use your fate dice of 1s on the Pinks to bring D6 back though? Since they are immune in the first place and hence wont be able to even take the test. 

Correct. If it was worded "they do not have to take battleshock tests" then it would be your choice. Since it's worded "Do not take" then you wouldn't be able to use the 1. All you'd need to do is keep 1 model outside that 12" aura though.

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Are Flamers only worthwhile within Eternal Conflag, or are they reasonable in Hosts Duplicitous?

I thought about this list below. It is built mainly from 2 SC:Tzeentch + LoC + Blue/Brim boxes.

1st SC building Changecaster + 3 Flamers + 1 Exalted (no disc) + 10 Pinks

2nd SC building Fluxmaster on the Disc from the first SC + 3 Flamers + 10 Pinks.

This would leave me with 6 screamers + 1 disc + exalted leftover. Might be able to sell them or keep them for later, dont know yet. Seems reasonably cheap to buy into.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Units
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 90

 

I think they're generally still worth it, but I really feel like you'd want to still try to bring 9-12. That -1 rend accounts for about 2-3 damage per unit of 3 Flamers which obviously adds up (so 6 Flamers would gain ~5 damage from the -1 rend assuming all other buffs to get them to 2/2/0/d3).

I think the bottom line is that Conflag just makes more sense even if you run a bunch of Pinks since their shooting also benefits from that -1 rend.. but that isn't to say that HD is the worst option you can go with. All those Horrors holding things up can mean a lot against certain matchups, completely nullifying my Clanrats ability to retreat + charge. Alternatively, Conflag would just let you blow the unit off the table... so 😅

 

1 hour ago, Asimov said:

Thanks a lot! This will do perfectly

Do you think it is worth to take a chaos spawn with the extra 50? or the extra CP for 50 is still a thing?

@RUNCMD can give his input but I think you want that CP or an Endless. CP gives you BS immunity, the ability to use the LoC's ability more often, or RR 1's to hit on the unit of 6 Flamers (which is nice when their profile is 2/2/-1/d3). A Chaos Spawn isn't going to do anything for you really as they're pretty bad overall 😉

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@Tizianolol @Gwendar my thoughts on arcanite cabal is that its purpose is mostly as a cheap artifact and CP. The effect is fairly weak, but the heroes in the battalion are pretty useful and I know I've often found trouble fitting battalions in when listbuilding since most of our battalions require a heavy commitment to a certain style of play.

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@Ganigumo true, I think for me I just have a hard time justifying it in most lists because I'm filling it so heavily with lots of wizards or Enlightened\Skyfires that I simply don't have room for 2 battalions. Stacking it with Aspect on a different model could be funny too... I dunno, I may go and see if I can write a list on lunch that could benefit.

EDIT: Yeah, I just can't make any double-battalion setup that really benefits from it? I did make an HA list with Tzaangor Coven and Cabal.. but squeezing it in with Witchfyre may be good too (I just didn't want to do that personally since I would lose the LoC from my list).

The issue I have with it remains the same though; what am I really gaining? I get more DD back which is nice, but the issue is that it kind of wants you to go into an Arcanite heavy list, and Arcanite artifacts are really not great compared to the 3 powers that Daemon's can get. So in that regard you're not really gaining much from the extra artifacts and you're really just getting lower drops and another CP. Cabal is probably alright on it's own and I could see some use out of 2 Tzaangor Shamans and a Fatemaster for an Enligthened\Skyfire heavy list perhaps.. but again I just don't see it being incredibly worth it, personally.

Edited by Gwendar

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9 hours ago, Kasper said:

This effectively means you cant use your fate dice of 1s on the Pinks to bring D6 back though? Since they are immune in the first place and hence wont be able to even take the test. 

Yeah correct, but if something nasty charges in and wipes the pinks into blue and possibly brims straight away the DD of 1 won't matter and you don't want that screen running at all.

Its easy enough to make a pink out of the "wholly within "so you can get them back and then when placing the blues make them wholly within again due to base size. This is one effective way ive found to use Horrors as a screen really. 

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8 hours ago, Asimov said:

Thanks a lot! This will do perfectly

Do you think it is worth to take a chaos spawn with the extra 50? or the extra CP for 50 is still a thing?

I personally prefer the Extra CP. But play around with it and see what works best. Personally I love the chaos spawn lol. So im kinda conflicted in answering, but the CP has far more utility for games, where as spawns are better for holding up a unit and, kinda just doing that really.

Edited by RUNCMD
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13 hours ago, Kasper said:

Are Flamers only worthwhile within Eternal Conflag, or are they reasonable in Hosts Duplicitous?

I think Flamers are worth it in probably 70% of Tzeentch lists and most covens, apart from the Cult of the Transient form. Sure the EC and HD covens make them bettert, spesh EC with them becoming battleline and also giving them rend, but the fear that a unit of 6 and an exalted can put into an opponent is worth it, let a lone ( or 12 of them buffed by an Exalted. That being said it's a heavy investment to not take the EC and give them rend.

Edit: extra words.

Edited by RUNCMD
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On 10/5/2020 at 8:23 PM, Gwendar said:

Got a 1 game per week 2k league starting today with the ability to change lists per opponent. Now, I probably won't do that as I want to develop all-comers lists rather than tailor... but I think these are some variants I will be running throughout.

Duplicitous full-casting:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 80

A new iteration on my magic-based Duplicitous builds.. swapping out Skyfires for more bodies and Wizards to generate even more bodies. Not much forward board presence, but interested in trying it out nonetheless. If it doesn't work after a couple games, I'll probably switch back to the Skyfires at the cost of some Pinks and the Sorc Lord or something as that's consistently done better anyway. "Ain't broke don't fix it" kind of thing 😉

Semi necro but have you had time to get more games in with this build? I dont like the idea of the Skyfires because from my experience with them in BoC they were really lackluster and disappointing. I do get the speed and the long range snipe potential, but still. I feel like the horde clear spell from the Manticore looks much better on paper.

I thought about swapping out the Darkfire Daemonrift and instead include the Prismatic Palisade, especially since you can create 2 chaos spawns and set them up just within 3" of a unit, then cast the Palisade between the spawn and the enemy unit and really mess up with their pile-in since they likely wouldnt be allowed to do a pile-in due to the requirement of ending closer and due to HD they couldnt retreat either. You could effectively lock down a big blob of HGB (or anything really) in the middle of the map until the Palisade was dispelled. The Palisade also protects the Spawn from being sniped with shooting/magic due to blocking LoS.

Isnt Blue Scribes a little redundant in HD though? You already have the trait to give casters rerolls. Did you put it on the Manticore because you reckon it is the most tanky model due to the +1 save artefact? Just wondering why he got it over someone else, since he wont benefit from it himself. 

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