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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

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3 hours ago, Kopfnussklopfer said:

Im a 100% noob, just painting and building my first AoS army :)

I already have alot of deamons (horrors, screamers, flamers and so on), but i wanted to add a Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
First off all, what do you think about him in general? I thought his spell would be great together with Kairos.

2. If i use the Sorcerer on Manticore, i thought about using his passive, so i need some Slaves to darkness
The warscroll i liked the most are the Iron Golems. They have an Melee and a Ranged attack, which they can both use in Melee, right?
Then, if they dont move, i can reroll 2 times their saves (together with the Manticore)? Sounds good to me, please tell me why I am wrong :D

You can use the Sorcerer Lord on manticore's oracular visions ability on himself.

Its pretty good with paradoxical shield actually, since paradoxical shield only forces rerolls on successful saves before modifiers (so it only forces a reroll on a 4, 5, or 6) and oracular visions lets you reroll anything else.

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Finally got time to read the Seraphon Battletome.

LOL

Wow! Is all I have to say. Anyone got ideas on how to Hard counter this army with not only Tzeentch but any army?

My main thing I can think of is just try and take out the Heros and bunker down on objectives (contextual to scenario)

That Teleporting though! Does anyone know if they can teleport out of Combat at all?

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6 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Finally got time to read the Seraphon Battletome.

LOL

 

My main thing I can think of is just try and take out the Heros and bunker down on objectives (contextual to scenario)

That Teleporting though! Does anyone know if they can teleport out of Combat at all?

That's about the best way to describe it, yes.

Generally that's what you need to do; on paper the units aren't great but the buffs make them great. The biggest lists going around now are usually run + double-shooting Bastiladons, large units of Skinks buffed to throw out 20+ damage each in shooting alone (the majority of those being MW's) and of course your typical howmanysalamanderscanIfitinasinglelist type builds... although these seem to be losing popularity for the above, but you'll still see people take at least 1-2 units of 3. Lucky for us, Bastiladons are easily killed with MW's... unlucky for us, with most things being a Chaos Daemon they do more damage against us.

The issue for me generally stems from Kroak\Starmaster who sit in a the corner of the board somewhere and you'll find it difficult to get to them and they'll just sit back there and throw out unbinds at you all day since it's board-wide for them 🙄. The best lists I've seen against them have literally just been your standard Changehost Conflag lists with Flamers which basically just tried to outdrop them and do to them what they're going to try to do to you; blow as much stuff off the board as possible early on so they can't score. And yes, they can teleport out of combat.

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Hey guys!

What whould you say is the good size for kairic acolyte units in a pyrofane cult list? Do you want one big unit and multiple little ones to make the most of the reroll to wound command ability, or just spam as many 20/30 men blocks as possible?  I'm not looking for hyper optimization, but I was wondering what was the common wisdom on this matter.

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8 hours ago, Gwendar said:

 And yes, they can teleport out of combat.

LOL.

Thanks for the write up mate, always good to read your input. I honestly think that the amount of teleports and stuff they get, its a bit OP. I also read theres an ability they can use where they can make a charge move within 18 inches using 3 dice? Doesn't even specify they have to be a certain distance away for legit they could be 9 inches away and still roll 3 dice, as far as I understand it.

Yeah Kroak on Balewind and just dealing mortal wounds from his ability and then all the unbinds... so gross.

I really love that they are finally killing it on the Battlefield and obviously there are going to be some lists that people take that are not super OP, but some of the stuff that I've been able to build just doesn't seem fun for my opponent, even in a tournament setting really.

Also, due to loss of tonality and everything else that makes us human on the Internet, this isn't me complaining as such, I just actually find this a bit funny at how the army operates!

The biggest thing I find funny though is how GW errataed Changehost's 2 teleports but then give Seraphon the ability to deepstrike and also teleport as many unit s they want LOL. GG.

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54 minutes ago, Sedral said:

Hey guys!

What whould you say is the good size for kairic acolyte units in a pyrofane cult list? Do you want one big unit and multiple little ones to make the most of the reroll to wound command ability, or just spam as many 20/30 men blocks as possible?  I'm not looking for hyper optimization, but I was wondering what was the common wisdom on this matter.

Depends on your list, but for the pyrofane cult you really want to take at least 1 unit in a size of 20 or 30.

the list I run takes x2 units of 20 and a single unit of 10. this gives me a bit more flexibility I feel when I play games on doing damage and getting more models in range of what im shooting, but forces me to pick which unit my fatemaster sits with.

Kairics fold pretty quick to both damage and battleshock, so taking the bigger units is way more desirable and holds longer imo. But never under estimate the ability to retreat from an enemy and block off their teleporting with 1 model lol.

ALSO! Any unit that has 10 or more models in it gets to add 1 to their bravery, so that block of 20 man Kairics goes up to a 7 bravery when at 20 or more :). Never forget that!

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45 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

LOL.

Thanks for the write up mate, always good to read your input. I honestly think that the amount of teleports and stuff they get, its a bit OP. I also read theres an ability they can use where they can make a charge move within 18 inches using 3 dice? Doesn't even specify they have to be a certain distance away for legit they could be 9 inches away and still roll 3 dice, as far as I understand it.

Yeah Kroak on Balewind and just dealing mortal wounds from his ability and then all the unbinds... so gross.

I really love that they are finally killing it on the Battlefield and obviously there are going to be some lists that people take that are not super OP, but some of the stuff that I've been able to build just doesn't seem fun for my opponent, even in a tournament setting really.

Also, due to loss of tonality and everything else that makes us human on the Internet, this isn't me complaining as such, I just actually find this a bit funny at how the army operates!

The biggest thing I find funny though is how GW errataed Changehost's 2 teleports but then give Seraphon the ability to deepstrike and also teleport as many unit s they want LOL. GG.

Yeah, they have that as well but I can't remember what gives it.. generally I don't see that as much as the above lists and trust me I've seen it all playing against so many tournament guys on tabletop simulator. The teleporting is seldom the issue honestly.. for me it really is just the amount of power they can put out in shooting alone and for how cheap everything is, they can easily have 4-6 threats on the board at a time which is absolutely absurd.

A lot of buffs aren't even spell casts, but just straight up abilities or things spent with CP of which they will have a near infinite supply of with Kroak\Starmasters who will be safely tucked away in a corner of the board to where I can seldom even have 30" range Jezzails able to hit him; not before they get blown off by similarly long-ranged Bastiladons. I've taken a break from Skaven as Kroaks spell alone makes it near impossible to do much as he can easily just kill off all my 5 wound wizards if they get a double turn which cripples my biggest hammers.

Anyway, I don't want to rant about Seraphon as I've kept it pretty much to myself... people know what the problem with them is, but thanks to COVID we haven't had any real tournament info to go off and GW don't look at Tabletop Simulator despite some pretty large\major tournaments happening there where they've done exceptionally well, as well as KO. I know their rules writers are numerous and I often wonder how the communication is in the office.. far too often it seems things get fixed for Faction A but then Faction B's update has basically the same thing for better or worse just like you're describing... Oh well. I think as Tzeentch, we honestly have a good set of tools to deal with them, especially since we can usually beat them on drops and strike first.

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I‘ll be trying one of these fun list soon (to recover from my S2D ptsd) I just had a brief flick through the BT, maybe there are synergies I haven‘t seen yet:

 

Raven Host.pdf


or

Raven Host 2.pdf

 

I’m basically trying to use as many S2D units as possible

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13 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah, they have that as well but I can't remember what gives it.. generally I don't see that as much as the above lists and trust me I've seen it all playing against so many tournament guys on tabletop simulator. The teleporting is seldom the issue honestly.. for me it really is just the amount of power they can put out in shooting alone and for how cheap everything is, they can easily have 4-6 threats on the board at a time which is absolutely absurd.

A lot of buffs aren't even spell casts, but just straight up abilities or things spent with CP of which they will have a near infinite supply of with Kroak\Starmasters who will be safely tucked away in a corner of the board to where I can seldom even have 30" range Jezzails able to hit him; not before they get blown off by similarly long-ranged Bastiladons. I've taken a break from Skaven as Kroaks spell alone makes it near impossible to do much as he can easily just kill off all my 5 wound wizards if they get a double turn which cripples my biggest hammers.

Anyway, I don't want to rant about Seraphon as I've kept it pretty much to myself... people know what the problem with them is, but thanks to COVID we haven't had any real tournament info to go off and GW don't look at Tabletop Simulator despite some pretty large\major tournaments happening there where they've done exceptionally well, as well as KO. I know their rules writers are numerous and I often wonder how the communication is in the office.. far too often it seems things get fixed for Faction A but then Faction B's update has basically the same thing for better or worse just like you're describing... Oh well. I think as Tzeentch, we honestly have a good set of tools to deal with them, especially since we can usually beat them on drops and strike first.

I'm lucky and have a Kroak Seraphon player in my group. I have played him 10+ times. Generally horror based changehost can win by attrition on obj, but it can get ropey if they do some solid opening damage.

Flamer version I think is weak against castle Kroak, you have to commit so heavily to do damage it exposes you in the following turns.

I have had success focusing on the astrolith bearer with mw spells through portal, then focusing on dispelling the balewind and in a response, the following turn Be'lakoring the kroak. This usually will give you enough time to set up your blobs of horrors and objective holders and then weather the following turns.

If you want to 'changehost flamer' Kroak you have to play it like tau in 40k. You target the saurus guard with one blob and then all the other fire into Kroak once he has no 'drones' to soak wounds. 

Generally my matches are 60/40 in favour of Seraphon but in general I think we can win on obj on some battleplan. 

Zoning is the most important skill against tier S armies like KO, Seraphon etc you need to have map denial constantly in your mind if you are to win. 

Hope that helps.

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1 hour ago, Blisterfeet said:

I'm lucky and have a Kroak Seraphon player in my group. I have played him 10+ times. Generally horror based changehost can win by attrition on obj, but it can get ropey if they do some solid opening damage.

Flamer version I think is weak against castle Kroak, you have to commit so heavily to do damage it exposes you in the following turns.

I have had success focusing on the astrolith bearer with mw spells through portal, then focusing on dispelling the balewind and in a response, the following turn Be'lakoring the kroak. This usually will give you enough time to set up your blobs of horrors and objective holders and then weather the following turns.

If you want to 'changehost flamer' Kroak you have to play it like tau in 40k. You target the saurus guard with one blob and then all the other fire into Kroak once he has no 'drones' to soak wounds. 

Generally my matches are 60/40 in favour of Seraphon but in general I think we can win on obj on some battleplan. 

Zoning is the most important skill against tier S armies like KO, Seraphon etc you need to have map denial constantly in your mind if you are to win. 

Hope that helps.

I used to play against Seraphon nearly every week so I'm also quite familiar.. but more-so now that I've played against every possible list configuration for months now against players better than myself 😅. Zone denial is something that's been ingrained in my playing for a long time to the point where I have issues now with zoning out board edges against armies who don't even have any means of a teleport because I'm so used to doing it.

I don't know if I agree with the Flamer route being weak; you don't usually go after Kroak with it, you just kill everything else right away. I've watched this be done by some of the best tournament players on both sides of the table, multiple times while they streamed their games on TTS. Generally in these lists you also have a Spellportal as you mentioned and Changecaster with a Balewind so you have a reasonable chance at killing Kroak or his little band of helpers like you said. Honestly though, I've found that a lot of the time he can just be ignored. If you wipe everything else off the table easily and then just sit and summon things for an early lead then there isn't really anything he can do.

I think Seraphon\Tzeentch is a balanced matchup, all things considered. Kroak is the biggest issue just because of the board-wide unbinds coupled with multiple +'s to casts\unbinds.. hence one reason Flamer spam works well at just deleting all their scoring units off the board right away. My magic based Hosts lists would struggle a bit more potentially, but those lists also have Be'lakor in them to shut him off as needed.

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15 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I‘ll be trying one of these fun list soon (to recover from my S2D ptsd) I just had a brief flick through the BT, maybe there are synergies I haven‘t seen yet:

 

Raven Host.pdf 1.06 MB · 13 downloads


or

Raven Host 2.pdf 1.05 MB · 9 downloads

 

I’m basically trying to use as many S2D units as possible

I like both lists, but I think I prefer the one without the Chaos Mammoth more so, albeit, it's a crazy huge threat and I didn't know it existed until your post! Any idea where to buy one these days or have they stopped making them?

I'm just not sure about how competitive that Mammoth would be (unless you're seeing something that I dont) and I'll try and explain my thinking behind it:

- im not sure of his base size and havent been able to find anything reliable online, but im guessing it is quite big seeing as though I found some okay photos of the model online and I think he will be hard to position. BUT that being said, adding one to hit rolls from a Tzeentch Agenda is totally going to go off on this guy just making it a HUGE threat to anyone in its path and you could legit plonk it on an objective and just claim it I think, especially if you reworked your list that has this guy in it and put a sorcerer lord near him (drop the LOC I think and also buff up other units you've included) and just did his spell and oracular visions on him. Man that would be gross

- Raven host 2 is at a 9 drop. yeah you will be going first (maybe, but if I saw that mammoth I wouldnt let you if I was a fast moving army) and you'll also get a lot of spells off, I count up to 8 if you get them all off and then the magister does his shenans of doubles cast again, but it doesn't look reliable without the scribes (another reason to drop the LOC and take the scribes on balewind if you have it). You could fit a battalion in I reckon and get some juicy other kewl stuff

- Your Raven host 1 looks much better if im honest, and boasts more synergies and would probably hold up a bit more competitively (in my mind), spesh with the battalion and the Chaos Lord on foots ability to make someone fight again.

- Raven host 1 i'm not too sure if the Magister is going to be of a greater benefit to you than taking another chaos sorc lord tbh. Unless you're going to chuck Arcane suggestion on him and then use that on a nasty unit of something to de-buff them? Otherwise again another chaos sorc lord on foot with his spell and also oracular would be better for what you have taken, then you can also put Arcane suggestion on him and use that if your guys need it, OR chuck him on a bale wind and he can cast both and add 1 to saves, plus give him the extra wound artefact and he's kinda sitting pretty in my mind just being a tower of grossness! (this is what I aim to do with him :) )

I like the direction you're going. I can't get over how gross it would be to go up against a giant mammoth like that, with some of the agendas going off (like the add 1 to hit rolls OR the add 1 to saves), whilst he is re-rolling saves from the chaos sorc lord AND then re-rolling all hits and wounds because of his spell... PLUS if the Chaos Sorc lord is on a balewind and turn 2 or 3 he debuffs a unit nearby to subtract 1 from hit a wound because of arcane suggestion, with all the buffs on the mammoth its just this huge wrecking ball hahahaha.

Thanks for sharing!

 

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7 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

I like both lists, but I think I prefer the one without the Chaos Mammoth more so, albeit, it's a crazy huge threat and I didn't know it existed until your post! Any idea where to buy one these days or have they stopped making them?

I'm just not sure about how competitive that Mammoth would be (unless you're seeing something that I dont) and I'll try and explain my thinking behind it:

- im not sure of his base size and havent been able to find anything reliable online, but im guessing it is quite big seeing as though I found some okay photos of the model online and I think he will be hard to position. BUT that being said, adding one to hit rolls from a Tzeentch Agenda is totally going to go off on this guy just making it a HUGE threat to anyone in its path and you could legit plonk it on an objective and just claim it I think, especially if you reworked your list that has this guy in it and put a sorcerer lord near him (drop the LOC I think and also buff up other units you've included) and just did his spell and oracular visions on him. Man that would be gross

- Raven host 2 is at a 9 drop. yeah you will be going first (maybe, but if I saw that mammoth I wouldnt let you if I was a fast moving army) and you'll also get a lot of spells off, I count up to 8 if you get them all off and then the magister does his shenans of doubles cast again, but it doesn't look reliable without the scribes (another reason to drop the LOC and take the scribes on balewind if you have it). You could fit a battalion in I reckon and get some juicy other kewl stuff

- Your Raven host 1 looks much better if im honest, and boasts more synergies and would probably hold up a bit more competitively (in my mind), spesh with the battalion and the Chaos Lord on foots ability to make someone fight again.

- Raven host 1 i'm not too sure if the Magister is going to be of a greater benefit to you than taking another chaos sorc lord tbh. Unless you're going to chuck Arcane suggestion on him and then use that on a nasty unit of something to de-buff them? Otherwise again another chaos sorc lord on foot with his spell and also oracular would be better for what you have taken, then you can also put Arcane suggestion on him and use that if your guys need it, OR chuck him on a bale wind and he can cast both and add 1 to saves, plus give him the extra wound artefact and he's kinda sitting pretty in my mind just being a tower of grossness! (this is what I aim to do with him :) )

I like the direction you're going. I can't get over how gross it would be to go up against a giant mammoth like that, with some of the agendas going off (like the add 1 to hit rolls OR the add 1 to saves), whilst he is re-rolling saves from the chaos sorc lord AND then re-rolling all hits and wounds because of his spell... PLUS if the Chaos Sorc lord is on a balewind and turn 2 or 3 he debuffs a unit nearby to subtract 1 from hit a wound because of arcane suggestion, with all the buffs on the mammoth its just this huge wrecking ball hahahaha.

Thanks for sharing!

 

Thanks for the comment!

You can get a great mammoth model from Mierce miniatures (http://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_rve_mbs_815_200). You can get the adequate huge base as mdf online :)

 

Sadly the Mammoth was put into legends so it‘s not competetive by any means. It usually works better in a Slaves to Darkness army in the Subfaction „Ravagers“. There you can give your general an 18“ aura. With this synergie my mammoth oneshotted Alarielle (Khorne Mark) and in a different Game it stomped 30 Ard boys (Mark of Slaanesh) (killed 23 and the rest ran)

 

I‘ll take your advices on the two lists into consideration, thanks again!

B116CB50-CDB8-4193-B2AC-4D066FCCC6DC.jpeg.ebd768a66496943656537227a2d0c6b5.jpeg
Edited by JackStreicher

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You can also comvert a decent war mammoth out of a LotR Mumak, just get some variant of chaos guys to ride it and slap on some spiky bits

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Been tweaking my list. The idea is a fluffy, but still decent mortal list. 

Cult Of Personality
Allegiance: Tzeentch - Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

LEADERS
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160) - Lore of Fate : Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240) - Lore of Fate : Glimpse the Future
The Changeling (140) - Lore of Change : Treason of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman (150) - Lore of Fate : Arcane Suggestion
Lord of Change (380) - General - Command Trait : Shrouded in Unnatural Flame - Artefact : Chainfire Amulet - Lore of Change : Fold Reality

UNITS
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)

The plan is to have the the Gaunt Summoner pop in some Pink Horrors. The Acolytes hang back on backfield objects to fling fireballs and cast their spell. The Tzaangors and Enlightened push forward, boltered by the heroes,all the while casting and summoning as much as possible. 

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29 minutes ago, TheTaintedSpud said:

Been tweaking my list. The idea is a fluffy, but still decent mortal list. 

Cult Of Personality
Allegiance: Tzeentch - Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

LEADERS
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160) - Lore of Fate : Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240) - Lore of Fate : Glimpse the Future
The Changeling (140) - Lore of Change : Treason of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman (150) - Lore of Fate : Arcane Suggestion
Lord of Change (380) - General - Command Trait : Shrouded in Unnatural Flame - Artefact : Chainfire Amulet - Lore of Change : Fold Reality

UNITS
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)

The plan is to have the the Gaunt Summoner pop in some Pink Horrors. The Acolytes hang back on backfield objects to fling fireballs and cast their spell. The Tzaangors and Enlightened push forward, boltered by the heroes,all the while casting and summoning as much as possible. 

I like the premise. Just a few things I would consider. Why pyrofane with knits of 10 acolytes? Duplicitous would give the loc a great trait and artifact, and the host ability is strong. 

 

Tzaangor shamen is weak sauce really. A better fit to support the tzaangor would be a fatemaster. But then you've got two ca's competing for competing for your points.

 

The list lacks rerolls for casting. Blue scribes imo are pretty much mandatory in a tzeentch list. For its points that warscroll is probably the best in the book. Full of flavour and awesome abilities. But not bent. 

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Been thinking about Hosts Arcanum + Skyshoal Coven tonight out of nowhere and just came up with this so it's a bit rough. General idea is reasonable MW output from all the Screamers (who are also cheap battleline, IE extra points on a lot of BP's) and you can give the Enlightened\Skyfires the pre-game move from Hosts. Skyshoal lets the Enlightened\Screamers throw out d3 MW's on a 2+ for each unit they pass across which works in conjunction with the Screamers 5+ MW's.

The free 6 Screamers and free auto-unbinds are pretty neat too I guess 😉

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Screamers of Tzeentch (160)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Battalions
Skyshoal Coven (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 115
 

Thinking I may run it in an upcoming tournament in a week.. not sure if it's a gimmick or if it could actually work.

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@Gwendar I would say consolidate one of those Screamer units into one of the others to end up running either a unit of 9 or x2 units of 6 to lower the drops (albeit only by one) but also better objective holding and for better use/maximise the use of the Inbuilt CP ability from the Host.

I think I would swap possibly the Changeling out for the Fluxmaster and the only reason I say that is to have it stay near a Pack of Screamers to make them the -1 to hit in combat, and also swapping out the artefact of the Well of Arcane might to giving him the Aura of Mutability (the +1 to wound rolls for daemon units within 9').  Also - if you're playing in Chamon, the Fluxmaster can burn a CP to add +1 to the screamers bites making them pretty choppy in the end for such a cheap battleline unit.

Also the Fluxmaster being 10 points cheaper you might get the triumph as well, but I guess you're losing the extra spell from the Changeling and his very nice -1 to hit ability. So I guess there's def merit in both. Guess it will be all down to testing.

I think in my mind, I would use the flux master and a pack of screamers and even some enlightened to race across the board turn 1, trying to position myself however needed in case of the double, then turn two if possible, have everything fly over any units as needed doing the mortals, then summon those 6 free screamers and then possibly even other items based on summoning points and then you have a lot of board control turn 2 (providing you/I had Tzeentch's favour). If it was a pack of just 6 screamers, its still quite a lot to do some gnarly stuff especially with buffs and spells (especially if you had the shaman up there doing arcane suggestion = probably my favourite spell ever).

I really think theres some merit in the list. HIGH movement, potential for some serious damage/stress for your opponent and I think that screamers are an overlooked/under rated unit in Tzeentch ( I know I need more).

Let us know how you go with your tests and what you did and didn't like, noting you mentioned this is still a rough blueprint! Keen to hear more!

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7 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

@Gwendar I would say consolidate one of those Screamer units into one of the others to end up running either a unit of 9 or x2 units of 6 to lower the drops (albeit only by one) but also better objective holding and for better use/maximise the use of the Inbuilt CP ability from the Host.

I think I would swap possibly the Changeling out for the Fluxmaster and the only reason I say that is to have it stay near a Pack of Screamers to make them the -1 to hit in combat, and also swapping out the artefact of the Well of Arcane might to giving him the Aura of Mutability (the +1 to wound rolls for daemon units within 9').  Also - if you're playing in Chamon, the Fluxmaster can burn a CP to add +1 to the screamers bites making them pretty choppy in the end for such a cheap battleline unit.

Also the Fluxmaster being 10 points cheaper you might get the triumph as well, but I guess you're losing the extra spell from the Changeling and his very nice -1 to hit ability. So I guess there's def merit in both. Guess it will be all down to testing.

I think in my mind, I would use the flux master and a pack of screamers and even some enlightened to race across the board turn 1, trying to position myself however needed in case of the double, then turn two if possible, have everything fly over any units as needed doing the mortals, then summon those 6 free screamers and then possibly even other items based on summoning points and then you have a lot of board control turn 2 (providing you/I had Tzeentch's favour). If it was a pack of just 6 screamers, its still quite a lot to do some gnarly stuff especially with buffs and spells (especially if you had the shaman up there doing arcane suggestion = probably my favourite spell ever).

I really think theres some merit in the list. HIGH movement, potential for some serious damage/stress for your opponent and I think that screamers are an overlooked/under rated unit in Tzeentch ( I know I need more).

Let us know how you go with your tests and what you did and didn't like, noting you mentioned this is still a rough blueprint! Keen to hear more!

True, I suppose that would make sense and will make that change to the Screamers.. I wrote this when I was near going to bed and I was already on 4 hours of sleep so I was just kinda pressing buttons with my eyes half shut 😅

The Changeling was just an addition to use up points and figured a 2-cast wizard was the best bet, especially with the built in -1 to hit, effectively giving a unit -2 to hit against the Pinks or Screamers if he could keep up (or come in T1 with the free 6 Screamers).. but I see what you're saying. The other choice was a Curseling, but felt I could get more out of the Changeling, especially with 3 auto-unbinds per game. Still, I just feel like Screamers aren't exactly dishing out damage; even with the +1 to wound from the aura and -1 rend a unit of 6 will only do about 5 wounds against anything but a monster. Would RR'ing two d6 MW's spells be better than that though? Who knows. The better bet would probably be to give him Aspect for the DD replenishment.. but I wanted my Scribes to be more than just a RR battery. Granted, I also need to realize that this isn't my other lists that have 5 wizards standing around each other to even benefit from those RR's in the first place... he's really just acting as a 2+ means of getting off Firestorm and something fast to get summons out with.

So there's a few things to experiment with here, for sure.

Someone on FB suggested a Fatemaster to run along the Skyfires for the RR's, but after thinking about it I don't feel it's entirely worth that CP when I would likely need to spend it on Screamers or other things. If they really want to kill a hero, then I'll use 2-3 DD to get them 6's and deal out those MW's (another reason I should probably use Aspect of Tzeentch 🤣). I definitely think I will be giving your suggestions a try though just to make everything be a little more aggressive which isn't how I typically play Tzeentch (or anything really, I'm a very reactionary\passive player) but is most definitely how this need to be played. I'll definitely be sure to update you all with batreps if I can actually get some testing in this weekend... I need to actually practice these lists before I take them to tournaments for once.

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8 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Someone on FB suggested a Fatemaster to run along the Skyfires for the RR's, but after thinking about it I don't feel it's entirely worth that CP when I would likely need to spend it on Screamers or other things. If they really want to kill a hero, then I'll use 2-3 DD to get them 6's and deal out those MW's (another reason I should probably use Aspect of Tzeentch 🤣). I definitely think I will be giving your suggestions a try though just to make everything be a little more aggressive which isn't how I typically play Tzeentch (or anything really, I'm a very reactionary\passive player) but is most definitely how this need to be played. I'll definitely be sure to update you all with batreps if I can actually get some testing in this weekend... I need to actually practice these lists before I take them to tournaments for once.

Yeah Fatemaster was one that I was thinking about suggesting but I think the CPs are better spent elsewhere. Aspect is a great artefact and I think it would do well in this list as well if you're not too concerned with Aura of Mutability. I think I love Aura because it makes Tzeentch quite choppy when it comes to those critical wound rolls, and on a pack of Horrors, when they are at 20 or so they already get that nice lil +1 but then the help on the wounds makes them actually stand up straight a bit and with some agenda's, they can be quite nice in both combat and shooting!

I really wish you could just have one big unit of Enlightened and Skyfires for this Battalion really. A unit of 6 of both, in my mind, makes it easier to buff than having 4 units of 3, spesh with only one Shaman. Safe to say the Mortal/Arcanite side of Tzeentch is a bit lacking atm, in terms of cost v reward. Interested to know your thoughts on that?

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4 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Yeah Fatemaster was one that I was thinking about suggesting but I think the CPs are better spent elsewhere. Aspect is a great artefact and I think it would do well in this list as well if you're not too concerned with Aura of Mutability. I think I love Aura because it makes Tzeentch quite choppy when it comes to those critical wound rolls, and on a pack of Horrors, when they are at 20 or so they already get that nice lil +1 but then the help on the wounds makes them actually stand up straight a bit and with some agenda's, they can be quite nice in both combat and shooting!

I really wish you could just have one big unit of Enlightened and Skyfires for this Battalion really. A unit of 6 of both, in my mind, makes it easier to buff than having 4 units of 3, spesh with only one Shaman. Safe to say the Mortal/Arcanite side of Tzeentch is a bit lacking atm, in terms of cost v reward. Interested to know your thoughts on that?

I mean, if I was going to only be shooting with Skyfires then sure, I could see merit in that.. but I don't do that and I have always used them quite aggressively as (contrary to popular belief) they do very well hitting 5-6+ save units first in combat and pairing that with Enlightened means you can tag the same unit with both units and then both get their RR's if they swing with that unit next. People grossly underestimate just how much those Discs can do 🤣

But yeah.. I agree completely. I would really prefer running 6 of each than splitting them like this, but I still think it could potentially be worth it for the MW's from the battalion. This does allow me to send them in opposite directions if needed and threaten more of the board and while the +1 to hit from the Shaman is nice, neither unit gain much from it in all honesty. Enlightened only gain about 2 damage on average by having the +1 to hit on the Spears and Beaks if they're getting the RR's.. but for Skyfires it's a marginal increase of 1 (or less than 1) and is better as a means to just counter Look out, Sir and let you use 4's on DD to at least auto-hit if you don't have 6's to spend.

I really wanted to throw a unit of 20 Tzaangors into this but.. yeah, Arcanite Tzeentch just isn't in a great spot unless you're running 60+ Kairics in Pyrofane\Wytchfire. I can't fathom spending 140 more points for 40 wounds and 'meh' damage output compared to 50 wounds worth of Horrors sitting somewhere. I mean that's an entire wizard I would be losing.. if they were on a 4+ save and\or fought in CC a bit better than I would definitely think that cost is justified.. but not as is.

Edited by Gwendar

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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

I really wanted to throw a unit of 20 Tzaangors into this but.. yeah, Arcanite Tzeentch just isn't in a great spot unless you're running 60+ Kairics in Pyrofane\Wytchfire. I can't fathom spending 140 more points for 40 less wounds and not 'meh' damage output compared to 50 wounds worth of Horrors sitting somewhere. I mean that's an entire wizard I would be losing.. if they were on a 4+ save and\or fought in CC a bit better than I would definitely think that cost is justified.. but not as is.

Totally this. I'm focusing on the Mortal side of tzeentch but it's hard to not get some support from Daemons, be that from horrors or Flamers or Screamers. I don't even bother with Tzaangors on foot, no point atm. Return on investment is just too low and I don't think there's much in the way of synergies that are reliable with the covens, albeit I've never played them due to not having the models, so if anyone in this thread reading this can comment on the Tzaangor covens please chime in!

The witchfyre/pyrofane combo is what im experimenting with now in multiple different forms and i'm enjoying it but Kairics man, they fold like butter and battleshock, so it's imperative to have some 1's and 2's in those DD's. But like you mentioned, I have 50 of them in my list, and you don't get a discount at any level and 30 is the max.

Just whilst it's in my mind and im typing, I would really love to see some more Daemons for Slaves to Darkness that could be mixed into any other Chaos allegiance. That would be an interesting element for Tzeentch. Some of the mortals work really well in our Allegiance, but having a cool unit of STD Daemons that we could abuse with fold reality would be cool!

 

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34 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Totally this. I'm focusing on the Mortal side of tzeentch but it's hard to not get some support from Daemons, be that from horrors or Flamers or Screamers. I don't even bother with Tzaangors on foot, no point atm. Return on investment is just too low and I don't think there's much in the way of synergies that are reliable with the covens, albeit I've never played them due to not having the models, so if anyone in this thread reading this can comment on the Tzaangor covens please chime in!

The witchfyre/pyrofane combo is what im experimenting with now in multiple different forms and i'm enjoying it but Kairics man, they fold like butter and battleshock, so it's imperative to have some 1's and 2's in those DD's. But like you mentioned, I have 50 of them in my list, and you don't get a discount at any level and 30 is the max.

Just whilst it's in my mind and im typing, I would really love to see some more Daemons for Slaves to Darkness that could be mixed into any other Chaos allegiance. That would be an interesting element for Tzeentch. Some of the mortals work really well in our Allegiance, but having a cool unit of STD Daemons that we could abuse with fold reality would be cool!

 

It's odd really... there isn't really a Coven that does much for purely Tzaangors as Transient Form is still Acolyte focused with the added side effect of "oh and when one dies you can maybe add a Tzaangor to a unit on a 6! That's cool, right?" and that's it. There really needed to be a combat focused Coven that buffs up Tzaangors, Skyfires and Enlightened while Pyrofane was left to the Acolytes for an alternate shooty build. I think the faction has a solid ability to make something focused like that as a mini-BoC with more wizards, but it's missing the Coven to do so. You can run them in BoC but I mean... why would you when you could just run cheap Ungors and Bestigors instead? 

I'm not sure if I ever shared my Pyrofane list, but it's probably one that I enjoy the most next to the Hosts Duplicitous stuff. 2x30 and 1x10 Acolytes (and the Enlightened for the Witchfyre tax which aren't bad for 100 points) along with my standard Kairos + Spellportal and Changecaster + Balewind to sit back and sling spells. I run it with a Fatemaster, Curseling and Magister on Disc as well, but been looking at a Changeling and\or Blue Scribes to swap in.. only ran the list twice so far but it's been interesting. I always keep a CP ready for BS but I think that's a holdover from playing Skaven the last 3 1/2 years that I can't shake 🤣. I don't think it's great all in all, but it's a way to get a shooting heavy list that isn't "I'm going to delete 2-3 units per turn in a 1-drop" in the form of Conflag Flamers.

Yeah, but I guess StD is meant to be mortals all in all so I don't know if we'll see unmarked daemons. I've looked at StD a bit recently but I just prefer inserting Chosen into lists and that's about it. Tzeentch is getting you DD which is a big reason you always see Tzeentch Archaon lists.. but aside from that I don't know how useful it is outside charge rolls. That said, 40 Marauders (who don't really need DD charge rolls to be honest), 10 Chosen or 10 Knights backed up by a Chaos Lord and Sorcerer Lord can put out pretty incredible numbers if you include the +1 attack Agenda. Having any of those units fight twice and RR all saves, hits and wounds is nuts, especially when you can use DD to just make the Sorcerer Lords spell go off and ensure you get that 9+ charge.



Anyway, I've rambled too long and created another wall of text.

Looks like you got me thinking again.. maybe at some point I'll expand on that Chosen idea but try out Knights and Marauders instead. Math isn't everything in a dice game.. but I like those numbers 😉. These are assuming each unit has the full RR's and +1 attack. The Knights I gave +1 to hit to via the CA from the mounted Lord\Karkadrak.. if you can get in a double-pile in (note the unit has to be within 3" of something per the CA wording) then you could easily delete 2 units, especially with the reach on the Knights.
stdtzeentch.PNG.fa8a726fbf66a1e618a08ce5de43855e.PNG

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6 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

You can run them in BoC but I mean... why would you when you could just run cheap Ungors and Bestigors instead? 
 

Again! This! Bestigors at 120 for 10! So damn good!

Onto your analysis of Maruders, Chosen and Knights, i totally agree. Chosen in a Tzeentch list are mental, and I have written a few lists that I'll share once I have the time to write them out, which also include big bin chicken Kairos!

Will touch base with them later.

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11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

It's odd really... there isn't really a Coven that does much for purely Tzaangors as Transient Form is still Acolyte focused with the added side effect of "oh and when one dies you can maybe add a Tzaangor to a unit on a 6! That's cool, right?" and that's it. There really needed to be a combat focused Coven that buffs up Tzaangors, Skyfires and Enlightened while Pyrofane was left to the Acolytes for an alternate shooty build. I think the faction has a solid ability to make something focused like that as a mini-BoC with more wizards, but it's missing the Coven to do so. You can run them in BoC but I mean... why would you when you could just run cheap Ungors and Bestigors instead? 

I'm not sure if I ever shared my Pyrofane list, but it's probably one that I enjoy the most next to the Hosts Duplicitous stuff. 2x30 and 1x10 Acolytes (and the Enlightened for the Witchfyre tax which aren't bad for 100 points) along with my standard Kairos + Spellportal and Changecaster + Balewind to sit back and sling spells. I run it with a Fatemaster, Curseling and Magister on Disc as well, but been looking at a Changeling and\or Blue Scribes to swap in.. only ran the list twice so far but it's been interesting. I always keep a CP ready for BS but I think that's a holdover from playing Skaven the last 3 1/2 years that I can't shake 🤣. I don't think it's great all in all, but it's a way to get a shooting heavy list that isn't "I'm going to delete 2-3 units per turn in a 1-drop" in the form of Conflag Flamers.

Yeah, but I guess StD is meant to be mortals all in all so I don't know if we'll see unmarked daemons. I've looked at StD a bit recently but I just prefer inserting Chosen into lists and that's about it. Tzeentch is getting you DD which is a big reason you always see Tzeentch Archaon lists.. but aside from that I don't know how useful it is outside charge rolls. That said, 40 Marauders (who don't really need DD charge rolls to be honest), 10 Chosen or 10 Knights backed up by a Chaos Lord and Sorcerer Lord can put out pretty incredible numbers if you include the +1 attack Agenda. Having any of those units fight twice and RR all saves, hits and wounds is nuts, especially when you can use DD to just make the Sorcerer Lords spell go off and ensure you get that 9+ charge.



Anyway, I've rambled too long and created another wall of text.

Looks like you got me thinking again.. maybe at some point I'll expand on that Chosen idea but try out Knights and Marauders instead. Math isn't everything in a dice game.. but I like those numbers 😉. These are assuming each unit has the full RR's and +1 attack. The Knights I gave +1 to hit to via the CA from the mounted Lord\Karkadrak.. if you can get in a double-pile in (note the unit has to be within 3" of something per the CA wording) then you could easily delete 2 units, especially with the reach on the Knights.
stdtzeentch.PNG.fa8a726fbf66a1e618a08ce5de43855e.PNG

The lack of a tzaangor subfaction, or good battalions makes them an odd fit in Tzeentch, but don't undersell their damage. Larger units get more special weapons, so a unit of 20 gets 8 greatblades and 4 mutants, and given they're on 32s, it will be all you're attacking with. The issue is the cost/unit size, I really think they would see more play if they could be taken in units of 15, since you've got a buffer for the extra attack and still get a lot of special weapons.

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38 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The lack of a tzaangor subfaction, or good battalions makes them an odd fit in Tzeentch, but don't undersell their damage. Larger units get more special weapons, so a unit of 20 gets 8 greatblades and 4 mutants, and given they're on 32s, it will be all you're attacking with. The issue is the cost/unit size, I really think they would see more play if they could be taken in units of 15, since you've got a buffer for the extra attack and still get a lot of special weapons.

I don't mean to undersell them, rather I don't find it worth the cost as you stated. I don't know that units of 15 would do enough to fix anything and all-in-all I would like them to go down to 160 at least.. but yeah, the lack of a Tzaangor coven that buffs them in some way is just really perplexing to me and instead they gave Acolytes 2 Covens?

Mathhammer shows that just those 12 models in combat with +1 attack can pump out ~22 wounds vs a 4+ save which is pretty nice since they don't need any specific heroes to buff them. Bestigors are a good comparison, but you can do more with StD units I think. Chaos Knights, Warriors, Marauders and Chosen can all do far more for the same cost or cheaper, but that's not including the Sorcerer Lord and Chaos Lord\Mounted Chaos Lord needed to make them work. I dunno, I may get around to trying out a unit of 20 at some point in the Hosts Arcanum list.. I've just never been impressed with them in general.

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