AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Deadkitten]

11 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Solid. Hoping those Chaos knights go down in points when the FAQ is dropped by GW. I think they're a bit over priced atm but they are awesome models (the new ones anyway).

That's a lot of Horrors for one person to deal with lol. Do you think the 20 blob is the way to run Pinks these days?

 

The damage output is so much better.  They're always at 20 models and get their buff spell of more turns.  I think Pinks got a win w the new hero building rules due the Raise Dead spell.

I'm not a big fan of 10 at all.  They are expensive.  And probably going up.  It's easy to just throw lots of bodies out there but unless you can reliably put out damage then it doesn't much matter.

I would ideally run two blocks of 20 and had settled on 20-20-20 under Multidunious Host.  That was when my buddy used his veto and told me to dial it back a bit.

[LordPrometheus]

Tzeentch FAQ is out. Gaunts now only summon 5 pinks. Pinks now 220. Flamers 140.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/uzcd79hEjC1iO6SE.pdf

Edited July 20, 2020 by LordPrometheus

[GeneralZero]

57 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Tzeentch FAQ is out. Gaunts now only summon 5 pinks. Pinks now 220. Flamers 140.

So, gaunt is dead? TBH, 5 pinks doesn't go far 😞 

[Grimrock]

5 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

So, gaunt is dead? TBH, 5 pinks doesn't go far 😞 

Well, if you compare him to similar casters like the Changeling he pays about 100 points for the ability to summon pinks. That's still technically a discount, but you'd have to decide if it's worth the risk of losing him first turn before you get a chance to summon. Personally I'm glad I held off on buying him until after this FAQ. Seems much less appealing now. 

[GeneralZero]

4 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Well, if you compare him to similar casters like the Changeling he pays about 100 points for the ability to summon pinks. That's still technically a discount, but you'd have to decide if it's worth the risk of losing him first turn before you get a chance to summon. Personally I'm glad I held off on buying him until after this FAQ. Seems much less appealing now. 

Indeed. But liking DoT, I must say that the gaunt is an unavoidable mini in a collection, especially the "on disc" one (which with a single magnet can play both, mounted and not mounted). BTW, I only assembled a single unit of 10 pinks (and thus 20 blues+20 brims). This is perfect.

[Jackroks981]

Why are skyfires still 200 points? All the Tzaangors at the moment are so lack luster for the price, really thought they would've done something with them this time around. I love my Tzaangors, I'm just bored of them being so meh.

[Ganigumo]

6 minutes ago, Jackroks981 said:

Why are skyfires still 200 points? All the Tzaangors at the moment are so lack luster for the price, really thought they would've done something with them this time around. I love my Tzaangors, I'm just bored of them being so meh.

GW has a habit of not giving buffs to strong armies until they're seen as "balanced". Just look at skaven, it took 3 rounds before the weak stuff got touched at all, which is pretty disappointing.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:

So, gaunt is dead? TBH, 5 pinks doesn't go far 😞 

Definitely not “take 6 and call it a list” anymore.

Still your best caster for Daemonrift; which is still probably worth the points at the hike.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[MitGas]

Hmmm, with just 5 horrors and the weaker spell, the Sorcerer Lord on manticore seems like an even better deal now...

Too bad he's my favorite Tzeentch hero, so I'll have to use him even if he's the worst unit in the game (nah, he's still okay)!  

[RUNCMD]

Gaunt only being able to bring in 5 Horrors, honestly not the worst... That's still a Tar pit, he didn't get another points hike for both variants, it wasn't neutered to Blues, he still casts two, on disc has great movement, has the ability to cast STD Spells... honestly not the worst and brings a bit of balance which is not bad.

Pinks going up to 220, not even needed... They were only such a focus because of the Gaunt in the first place imo. They should have stayed at 200... GW stuffed up there.

Flamers - expected.

Changeling - not sure why but okay, two caster at 140 I guess thats fine?

Kairics not going down - shame. They should be at 80 for 10 imo.

Tzaangors (of all varietys) - as someone mentioned above, not going down is a joke. I feel Beats of Chaos need this more than us atm, and the Skyfires should be 180 or less and enlightened on disc 160.

Overall, not too bad. We are still competitive which is nice and I think we got off lightly!

[Ganigumo]

12 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Gaunt only being able to bring in 5 Horrors, honestly not the worst... That's still a Tar pit, he didn't get another points hike for both variants, it wasn't neutered to Blues, he still casts two, on disc has great movement, has the ability to cast STD Spells... honestly not the worst and brings a bit of balance which is not bad.

Pinks going up to 220, not even needed... They were only such a focus because of the Gaunt in the first place imo. They should have stayed at 200... GW stuffed up there.

Flamers - expected.

Changeling - not sure why but okay, two caster at 140 I guess thats fine?

Kairics not going down - shame. They should be at 80 for 10 imo.

Tzaangors (of all varietys) - as someone mentioned above, not going down is a joke. I feel Beats of Chaos need this more than us atm, and the Skyfires should be 180 or less and enlightened on disc 160.

Overall, not too bad. We are still competitive which is nice and I think we got off lightly!

we definitely got off lightly but Pinks might still be problematic. I realize that 200 points for 50 wounds was fine if you weren't abusing it, but the second you start healing them it goes off the deep end. Rolled a 1 on battleshock? you restore somewhere between 5 and 30 wounds. Got an emerald lifeswarm? add an extra 5-15 wounds. Fold reality? as long as you don't ****** up its and roll a 1 its an extra 10-30 wounds. The fact that Fold reality and destiny dice are part of the book means they need to be pointed appropriately for this insane amount of value from restoring models, since we actually have a lot of control over it. Its not beyond reason to have a unit of 20 pinks (100 wounds) require 150+ damage to take out. Pinks could probably be costed at 250 and still be useful if you're healing them.

I'm very sad arcanites didn't go down though, Kairics at 90 would be fine (for now at least) and tzaangors could actually stay at the same cost with no issues if the unit size changed to 5-30. 10 Tzaangors lose their punch too early since 2 slain models removes the extra attack, but 15 would be the ideal size, and it would save points without just a cost decrease.

[RUNCMD]

9 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

we definitely got off lightly but Pinks might still be problematic. I realize that 200 points for 50 wounds was fine if you weren't abusing it, but the second you start healing them it goes off the deep end. Rolled a 1 on battleshock? you restore somewhere between 5 and 30 wounds. Got an emerald lifeswarm? add an extra 5-15 wounds. Fold reality? as long as you don't ****** up its and roll a 1 its an extra 10-30 wounds. The fact that Fold reality and destiny dice are part of the book means they need to be pointed appropriately for this insane amount of value from restoring models, since we actually have a lot of control over it. Its not beyond reason to have a unit of 20 pinks (100 wounds) require 150+ damage to take out. Pinks could probably be costed at 250 and still be useful if you're healing them.

I'm very sad arcanites didn't go down though, Kairics at 90 would be fine (for now at least) and tzaangors could actually stay at the same cost with no issues if the unit size changed to 5-30. 10 Tzaangors lose their punch too early since 2 slain models removes the extra attack, but 15 would be the ideal size, and it would save points without just a cost decrease.

I can agree with you on the abuse of Pinks for sure! but I still think that at 200 they worked as they should! But im just glad they didnt get hit harder tbh LOL.  I think the thing that hurts me the most at the Gaunt only being able to bring in 5 now is that I used them as a caster to get that extra spell for fate points! Thats what broke my heart if im honest lol. Sigh! Pinks will still be problematic I think.

Yeah even down to 90 would have been nice for Kairics. I take a lot of them at the moment because I look at vanilla Tzaangors and just cringe at how high they are! And you nailed it, lose a couple and you're losing the extra attacks etc! I love they have built a lot of ways to retrun them to a unit which is great but it also can be quite situational and you need to take other things etc. not the worst not the best. I also like the idea of being able to take them in 5 man blobs as well!

Edit: Added some words.

Edited July 20, 2020 by RUNCMD

[RUNCMD]

3 hours ago, MitGas said:

Hmmm, with just 5 horrors and the weaker spell, the Sorcerer Lord on manticore seems like an even better deal now...

Too bad he's my favorite Tzeentch hero, so I'll have to use him even if he's the worst unit in the game (nah, he's still okay)!  

Yeah I thought the same about the Chaos Sorcerer Lord, with a quick conversion (hate the Manticore model) he could see some use!!!! Still, Gaunt on Disc is nothing to scoff at imo!

Edited July 20, 2020 by RUNCMD

[Sinfullyvannila]

Kairics are a good deal at 100, especially now that Changeling, Pinks and Gaunt got pushed a little bit away from the absurdly good value buy that they were.

The Scroll and Vulcarch are amazing abilities a) at that cost and b) at that insane board footprint.

[RUNCMD]

2 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Kairics are a good deal at 100, especially now that Changeling, Pinks and Gaunt got pushed a little bit away from the absurdly good value buy that they were.

The Scroll and Vulcarch are amazing abilities a) at that cost and b) at that insane board footprint.

Im just trying to be greedy and sneak in an extra 10 or 20 points off a unit
I run x3 units of them, and 2 at a size of 20 so I'm just trying to make my list see me a bit of room LOL.

I agree with you though on the scroll and vulcarch! Spesh at 18 inches for the vulcarch!

[Ganigumo]

3 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Kairics are a good deal at 100, especially now that Changeling, Pinks and Gaunt got pushed a little bit away from the absurdly good value buy that they were.

The Scroll and Vulcarch are amazing abilities a) at that cost and b) at that insane board footprint.

Yeah the issue with kairics is that they just don't do much on the table. the +1 nearly unconditional +1 to unbind is good, but with 32mm bases and 1 attack each they don't hit very hard, their shooting attacks are only ok unless you're building around it (pyrofane + warpfyre does make them nasty) and a 5+ with a 6+ ward isn't exactly durable.

Unless you're playing pyrofane their main job is probably going to be screening or sitting on uncontested objectives in small units, but they're not pointed for that job, plus Cult of the transient form needs literally all the help it can get 😥

Compared to comparable units they're priced quite a bit higher. Grots would be ~60 for 10, skinks are 60, bloodreavers are 70, cultists are 70. We should pay a premium for the ranged attack and casting but a 30-40 point premium is a bit much.

[Sinfullyvannila]

9 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Yeah the issue with kairics is that they just don't do much on the table. the +1 nearly unconditional +1 to unbind is good, but with 32mm bases and 1 attack each they don't hit very hard, their shooting attacks are only ok unless you're building around it (pyrofane + warpfyre does make them nasty) and a 5+ with a 6+ ward isn't exactly durable.

Unless you're playing pyrofane their main job is probably going to be screening or sitting on uncontested objectives in small units, but they're not pointed for that job, plus Cult of the transient form needs literally all the help it can get 😥

Compared to comparable units they're priced quite a bit higher. Grots would be ~60 for 10, skinks are 60, bloodreavers are 70, cultists are 70. We should pay a premium for the ranged attack and casting but a 30-40 point premium is a bit much.

They aren’t pointed like those units because we already have horrors for those roles.

Kairics have always been an anti-wizard specialist unit. A better comparison would be Cygor; which they are just so, SOOOOO much better than.

The new Battletome just gave us the tools to make them a better value should we choose to build an army around them.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Lou_Cypher]

Don't think Archaon Tzeentch lists change too much with this. Though only 5 Pinks from the Summoner might be a little rough when playing the long game with him.

Would Hosts Arcanum help him out there? I'm thinking a list of Archaon, Fateweaver, a Sorcerer Lord with the summoning 6 Screamers Artifact, and maybe 2 small squads of Horrors? The rest of it, not too sure.

[Deadkitten]

1 hour ago, RUNCMD said:

Pinks will still be problematic I think.

It's almost the worst of both worlds.  Theoretically, I can now say "See?  FIXED!" and go right along running 2-3 blocks of 20 with Lifeswarm, DD and the new Raise Dead spell.  GW might keep inching them up until they are finally objectively over-costed long after the trouble makers have gotten bored and moved onto the next shiny.  

 

[RUNCMD]

Just now, Deadkitten said:

It's almost the worst of both worlds.  Theoretically, I can now say "See?  FIXED!" and go right along running 2-3 blocks of 20 with Lifeswarm, DD and the new Raise Dead spell.  GW might keep inching them up until they are finally objectively over-costed long after the trouble makers have gotten bored and moved onto the next shiny.  

 

Who has the Raise Dead spell available to them in Matched Play though?

[Deadkitten]

2 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Who has the Raise Dead spell available to them in Matched Play though?

It will be event to event.   And any FLGS random games.  

Edited July 20, 2020 by Deadkitten

[RUNCMD]

12 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

It will be event to event.   And any FLGS random games.  

Yeah thought it was mostly confined to Narrative games. Most matched play in FLGS or GW store probs wouldnt allow use to it, being isolated to AoA/Narrative.

But I see your point for sure.

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Yeah I thought the same about the Chaos Sorcerer Lord, with a quick conversion (hate the Manticore model) he could see some use!!!! Still, Gaunt on Disc is nothing to scoff at imo!

Yeah, also not a fan of the manticore... But I keep thinking a tauralon with other legs and a new head could make a fine count as manticore...

[RUNCMD]

5 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Yeah, also not a fan of the manticore... But I keep thinking a tauralon with other legs and a new head could make a fine count as manticore...

Oh yeah that would be a good conversion! I think a good head for that would/could be the mindstearler sphiranx? or maybe even a Loc head if ifs a Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord (would be pretty dedicated though)..

With the Tauralon theres a lot of cool options at your disposal I think

[MitGas]

8 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Oh yeah that would be a good conversion! I think a good head for that would/could be the mindstearler sphiranx? or maybe even a Loc head if ifs a Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord (would be pretty dedicated though)..

With the Tauralon theres a lot of cool options at your disposal I think

Well, anything avian would work... Still not sure how big the Tauralon in comparison actually is though!