AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grotruk]

Honestly, I'm afraid by the fact DD cannot be modified create issues and unintuitive complications for no solid reasons.

I wouldn't have to explain/mention in every games i will play the hundred FAQ which could be released because of that.

I would like to play with many kinds of players without having to say "No, I'm not cheating, It's written in the FAQ number 2634"

Tzeentch players have already suffer too much from that with the old battletome, i think a lot of Disciples were hoping the new battletome would fix these kind of issues.

Oh, and I didn't want to complain, I find the battletome interesting and really appreciated the work, but juste a little concerned by "logistic problems"

[Inquisitorsz]

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I’m still utterly baffled how the battleshock modifier got past playtesting and editing.

Because the problem isn't in the DoT book wording... The problem is the core rules using the very specific word "modified" for battleshock and rend.  
It's actually pretty easy for rules writers and play testers to overlook simple interactions like that when it's a basic rule you've known off by heart for years. You simply don't (and can't) re-read every single word of rules text to make sure your one new sentence doesn't break something.  

Like if you're writing code, you can run the program and test every line and every interaction, and yet bugs still exist in software because of the huge number of potential interactions.  You can't easily test every line of AoS rules every time there's a new line added.... at least not with limited GW and playtest man power. 
What you can do is release it, and see if any of the 10,000+ users find a problem. Which we did. And fix it. 

I'm usually the first to attack sloppy rules writing. But in this case, it's pretty evident that it was an easy to miss interaction. Especially if you're play testing it as the writer, knowing full well what the intent was. 

I'm actually surprised they put 2 special exceptions in the DD wording, instead of just updating the core rules to not count battleshock and rend as modifiers. 

As for why, changehost was deemed ok with 2 free teleports initially... I dunno... that's the sloppy kind of writing or lazy play testing. It's likely they probably just don't do enough of it. There are after all 7 subfactions and like 10+ battalions on top of the 20+ units in just this one book. 
That being said, it was pretty clear even on paper after a quick read through the book how strong that ability was.  I don't have an answer for that. 

[Grotruk]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

I'm actually surprised they put 2 special exceptions in the DD wording, instead of just updating the core rules to not count battleshock and rend as modifiers. 

Update the core rules is dangerous as it could interact with all other battletomes and could potentiallty create a lot of issues. That's maybe(or not) the reason why DD didn't choose to do that.

[Inquisitorsz]

19 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Update the core rules is dangerous as it could interact with all other battletomes and could potentiallty create a lot of issues. That's maybe(or not) the reason why DD didn't choose to do that.

Yeah I agree, but I think it's more likely that other "unmodifed" stuff will cause similar issues in the future, rather than the other way around. 
In theory, wording the base rules correctly should always be better than creating a bunch of exceptions every time a problem pops up. 
That way you're not just adding to a list of exceptions every new book that comes out. 

Maybe this is rare enough that it doesn't matter.... but I see lot of potential in the future for similar issues. 
I guess changing the core rules for Rend, may effect how Ethereal works.... since that specifically calls out "modifiers" to save rolls.... 
I'd have to look into it further. Perhaps it would break more than it solves. 

[Grotruk]

In fact, i won't be surprised if there would be a new core book in less than one year.

It's pure (and probably useless) speculation but most of the battletomes which have been released before the V2 (and the current core book) have their new battletome now 😜

For now,i think we just need to know if DD of 1 works with pinks battleschocks

[Sinfullyvannila]

8 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Gaunt summoner is the best faster or one of the best spells in the book. Arcane suggestion. It needs an 8 with a LoC around they can catch the +1 to cast buff. Guild of summoners would let the model pink up a second boost to casting. Making that spell realisticly castable. 

 

-1 to hit and -1 to wound is really strong. 

He’s always been a staple. It used to be for his warscroll spell, now it’s for his Diet Pink Horrors.

[Sinfullyvannila]

53 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Because the problem isn't in the DoT book wording... The problem is the core rules using the very specific word "modified" for battleshock and rend.  
It's actually pretty easy for rules writers and play testers to overlook simple interactions like that when it's a basic rule you've known off by heart for years. You simply don't (and can't) re-read every single word of rules text to make sure your one new sentence doesn't break something.  

Like if you're writing code, you can run the program and test every line and every interaction, and yet bugs still exist in software because of the huge number of potential interactions.  You can't easily test every line of AoS rules every time there's a new line added.... at least not with limited GW and playtest man power. 
What you can do is release it, and see if any of the 10,000+ users find a problem. Which we did. And fix it. 

I'm usually the first to attack sloppy rules writing. But in this case, it's pretty evident that it was an easy to miss interaction. Especially if you're play testing it as the writer, knowing full well what the intent was. 

I'm actually surprised they put 2 special exceptions in the DD wording, instead of just updating the core rules to not count battleshock and rend as modifiers. 

As for why, changehost was deemed ok with 2 free teleports initially... I dunno... that's the sloppy kind of writing or lazy play testing. It's likely they probably just don't do enough of it. There are after all 7 subfactions and like 10+ battalions on top of the 20+ units in just this one book. 
That being said, it was pretty clear even on paper after a quick read through the book how strong that ability was.  I don't have an answer for that. 

The reason I say it is because Tzeentch players have always used Destiny Dice to bypass Battleshock modifiers as their 2nd most common use(through Pinks Icon Bearers).

[Grotruk]

Plus i wonder why make the DD to be unmodifiable if you can't use them to avoid malus.

In this case, I really really think designers should write that DD are considered as unmodified rolls (and can't be reroll) but not that they can't be modified.

That would solve all DD issues with no FAQ needed (and would be more intuitive)

Edited February 4, 2020 by Grotruk

[Daramiz]

22 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Plus i wonder why make the DD to be unmodifiable if you can't use them to avoid malus.

In this case, I really really think designers should write that DD are considered as unmodified rolls (and can't be reroll) but not that they can't be modified.

That would solve all DD issues with no FAQ needed (and would be more intuitive)

The designer notes explains that they added the can't be modified clause because of some positive modifier shenanigans they didn't like during testing. Though what those were we do not know. 

[Neffelo]

7 hours ago, Sumanye said:

I'm fine with these changes, and as others have said, nothing is a surprise except the LoC ability.  Almost unnecessary since I'll be banking all those CP for Inspiring Presence now anyway.

My feeling on DD now are that they feel a bit useless tbh.  I think the changes were good, but with those changes AND the requirement to use 2 DD on 2d6, AND no modifiers, AND no Mastery of Magic...  I feel like outside of an outstanding DD roll or buying DD reroll abilities, we will probably use DD once or twice a game for a big charge or cast.  Maybe a few smaller charges.  Not complaining, I think Teentch is plenty powerful.  But I guess I'm saying, if I forgot to roll my DD, I don't think I'd really miss them.  The DD roll use to be the most exciting part of playing Teentch and I'm not really feeling that anymore IMO. 

To me, Destiny Dice are now really the glue that binds all of our other mechanics together, rather than being a super-tier allegiance ability on it's own.

Honestly, it's pretty fair. We have a ton of stacked and powerful mechanics through the DD, Summoning, Agendas, spellcasting and our subfaction abilities.  We have to take a hit somewhere.  It really is to supplement our other mechanics and guarantee them, or as you said, on a critical roll. I have to admit that I am bummed out by the MoM nerf though, I didn't feel that was needed. 

The changehost nerf seemed really fair. It is still very powerful and worth the points, just not tier 0 now. 

 

[Sacrednikki89]

I'm not sure if it's been asked before, but I don't see the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch in Azyr anymore, but it is in the Warscroll Builder.
It has the StD DP for 210 points but isn't a Wizard, is the 160 point Wizard still legal or do I need to allocate those points elsewhere?

[AverageBoss]

23 minutes ago, Sacrednikki89 said:

I'm not sure if it's been asked before, but I don't see the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch in Azyr anymore, but it is in the Warscroll Builder.
It has the StD DP for 210 points but isn't a Wizard, is the 160 point Wizard still legal or do I need to allocate those points elsewhere?

Age of Sigmar only ever had a single warscroll for the Daemon Prince (unlike 40K which has 3 different ones last I checked).

When StD got its recent update, the DP warscroll got a major overhaul. It is no longer a wizards, but can still be taken in a Tzeentch army no problem (like most other StD units) by giving it the mark.

Edited February 4, 2020 by AverageBoss

[Sacrednikki89]

1 minute ago, AverageBoss said:

Age of Sigmar only ever had a single warscroll for the Daemon Prince (unlike 40K which has 3 different ones last I checked).

When StD got its recent update, the DP warscroll got a major overhaul. It is no longer a wizards, but can still be taken in a Tzeentch army no problem (like most other StD units) by giving it the mark.

So the new one with Mark of Tzeentch buffs StD Wizards with his command ability and is good in melee, is he a waste of points without any StD wizards basically?

[AverageBoss]

3 hours ago, Sacrednikki89 said:

So the new one with Mark of Tzeentch buffs StD Wizards with his command ability and is good in melee, is he a waste of points without any StD wizards basically?

I mean, he is a very solid combat machine with a built in ASF ability and 3+ save. Its only the command ability you lose out on without StD wizards around, and you can always just use other command abilities anyways (its a pretty meh one anyways, only targeting a single model, and Tzeentch tends to run VERY cp light). If you do want to include some StD casters, your options are: Both versions of the Gaunt Summoner, Chaos Sorcerer Lord (great buff machine if using other StD units, which is very viable for us), CSL on Manticore (our best horde killer, full stop), and big bad Archaon himself. Lastly, we have two StD ally options for wizards. Theddra Skull-Scryer has an easy cast -1 to wound debuff (though short range). And Be'lakor, who is simply amazing and can win games with his debuffs and trickery.

Edited February 4, 2020 by AverageBoss

[GeneralZero]

Rule question about gaunt summoner: is the free summoning (of pink horrors 😉 ) counting as a spell  i.e. gives a Fate point?

[Paniere]

14 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

Rule question about gaunt summoner: is the free summoning (of pink horrors 😉 ) counting as a spell  i.e. gives a Fate point?

no...it just consumes 1 cast attempt, but the summoned unit can cast its own signature buff

[MitGas]

14 hours ago, Neffelo said:

We have to take a hit somewhere. 

EXTINCTION TO ALL TRAITORS! 

[NJohansson]

13 hours ago, Sacrednikki89 said:

So the new one with Mark of Tzeentch buffs StD Wizards with his command ability and is good in melee, is he a waste of points without any StD wizards basically?

I would say that the Prince is more or less a waste of points in Tzeentch regardless. If you need a semi beater - better to take the Sorcerer on Manticore (who is also a caster with a great spell and has a good ability) or Be’lakor who is equally good in combat as the prince as well as a 2 spell caster with one of the best abilities in the game (IMHO). Yes the prince is cheaper but only marginally so.

[Grotruk]

Don't worry for the hits, there is the loss of daemon keywords with tzaangors, the DD nerf.

Some  players find the new horrors weaker than before because they lost the ability of "summoning blue anywhere" and because they can't cast a lore of change spell anymore. (But the "nerf of pinks" isn't a consensus because they also win some things)

Don't forget that DOT were "tier 3" before the battletome. Some help was needed (and we had some, maybe too much :D)

[HarbingerGaming]

4 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Don't worry for the hits, there is the loss of daemon keywords with tzaangors, the DD nerf.

Some  players find the new horrors weaker than before because they lost the ability of "summoning blue anywhere" and because they can't cast a lore of change spell anymore. (But the "nerf of pinks" isn't a consensus because they also win some things)

Don't forget that DOT were "tier 3" before the battletome. Some help was needed (and we had some, maybe too much :D)

A lot of people forgot that, especially when comparing things to the book previously. The cry of mortal/beast side being trash is an odd thing to swallow because the very beginnings of our book (and for a while until the next generals handbook that following summer) it was all Tzaangors. Changehost then became popular after some price hikes but the Tzaangors were still outrageously powerful. However it just kept falling off slowly as the books were being updated. Tzeentch had a bit of an overtune and some oversights in mechanics, but the book overall is very well written. Wrath of the Everchosen is also opening up even more avenues for us to explore, pushing for aggressive magic spells and a more Mortal focused combat force. Now that a lot of the big things have been roped back, I think the win rate will overall taper out back into the 60ish% and they'll retain their strengths without being a volatile play experience.

[Sumanye]

1 hour ago, NJohansson said:

I would say that the Prince is more or less a waste of points in Tzeentch regardless. If you need a semi beater - better to take the Sorcerer on Manticore (who is also a caster with a great spell and has a good ability) or Be’lakor who is equally good in combat as the prince as well as a 2 spell caster with one of the best abilities in the game (IMHO). Yes the prince is cheaper but only marginally so.

I wouldn't say he is a waste of points, but maybe that there is just better options.  ASF and a 3+ save is not nothing, so I don't think he should automatically get zero consideration.  Couple points on the Daemon Prince,, he actually does more damage than Be'lakor if he charges and has a sword.  Since Be'lakor is an ally, his 2 spells mean a lot less and makes him a bit less auto-include over a basic prince.  Lastly, the Sorcerer on Manticore is not a Daemon and that could matter depending on army composition. 

@Sacrednikki89

All in all, yes the prince is the weakest choice even if he is cheaper, but I wouldn't say he is a waste and he could be fun to play.  Here is a cool build for him, give him the Warpfire blade and hit him with Arcane Transformation and maybe even Reckless Abandon (depending on whether you have a better unit to use it on).  Now he is ASF, does 6 attacks with his blade and does 4 MW on a 6.  A mini Gristlegore Ghoul King.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Sumanye

[Xasto]

Has anyone tried the big boy himself Archaon in a tzeentch list? I feel like the agendas can really buff him up

[AverageBoss]

53 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

I wouldn't say he is a waste of points, but maybe that there is just better options.  ASF and a 3+ save is not nothing, so I don't think he should automatically get zero consideration.  Couple points on the Daemon Prince,, he actually does more damage than Be'lakor if he charges and has a sword.  Since Be'lakor is an ally, his 2 spells mean a lot less and makes him a bit less auto-include over a basic prince.  Lastly, the Sorcerer on Manticore is not a Daemon and that could matter depending on army composition. 

@Sacrednikki89

All in all, yes the prince is the weakest choice even if he is cheaper, but I wouldn't say he is a waste and he could be fun to play.  Here is a cool build for him, give him the Warpfire blade and hit him with Arcane Transformation and maybe even Reckless Abandon (depending on whether you have a better unit to use it on).  Now he is ASF, does 6 attacks with his blade and does 4 MW on a 6.  A mini Gristlegore Ghoul King.

Not to mention the 3+ save, and -1 to be hit by melee attacks from his own loci.

[AverageBoss]

1 minute ago, Xasto said:

Has anyone tried the big boy himself Archaon in a tzeentch list? I feel like the agendas can really buff him up

Archaon casting Infusion Arcanum on himself is immense.

[Sacrednikki89]

Thanks for all the responses guys.
I'm incredibly new (Have2.5k points worth of models, but haven't played once).

I got a few things in mind but could I ask a few more questions?
I'm running this list currently and have a few points leftover, don't own any endless spells, I have Vortemis the All-Seeing but I'll be running them as a plain Magister and not taking the eot9 because the extra Tzaangor model is helpful for reasons below.

Firstly, who should be the general out of my leaders? I think thematically and maybe gameplay-wise the shaman makes sense but idk.
And what's the deal with the Mortal Realms thing? I see people usually go Ghur on lists I've seen around, is there any particular reason for that?
Thirdly, any suggestions on other stuff that would fit well? I have aside from the list: Daemon Prince, Changeling, 10 x Blues, 10 x Brimstones, A Herald of Burning Chariot, 1 x Exalted Flamer and the eyes of the nine which I'll use as there various models not the eyes of the nine.
I could get one thing likely as supplement but don't want to re-build in an entirely new direction.
As for spells/artifacts I got a rough plan for stuff but not sure on what's good or bad.

Am I right in playing Tzaangors in Disciples or do they play better in Beasts?
I like the lore/idea behind Cult of the Transient Form so I don't really wanna go Changehost or anything like that. Not chasing a meta or nothing, I just love me some Tzaangors and think there should be more of them.
Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance for answering any/all of them

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Cult of the Transient Form
LEADERS
Tzaangor Shaman (150) - Leader of Arcanite Cabal
Magister (100)
Magister (100)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
UNITS
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
BATTALIONS
Alter-kin Coven (140)
Arcanite Cabal (140)
TOTAL: 1910/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 113
LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4