AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Frowny]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

 1x6 with the same buffs are doing 20 so even that can be iffy. Regardless, heavy shooting is a direct counter to Bonereapers anyway.
 

Even at that level with correct math, it remains concerning powerful. while Shooting does do well against OBR, this is still ~340 points of units killing 60% of its value at range in a single turn. That is incredibly incredibly strong. And while shooting does do well against OBR, a 130 point unit with a 3+ save is hardly fragile even there, so its not like this is a 'picking on squishies' kind of thing.  Taken to the extreme, this is leaves you at the end of turn 1 with ~800 points vs their remaining 2000. Sure they are fragile, but that's a pretty lopsided start to any game. 

340 points of flamers (6 flamers, 1 exalted), eternal conflagration with + 1 wound artifact.

Can kill ~ 10 wounds of support wizards with look out sir (typically 200 points)

~150 points of even the most durable and cheap hordes (moonclan stabbas with an extra + save vs shooting, phoenix guard, gnoblars, orruk boyz),

~200 points of wounds on to an arkonaut ironclad with full rerolls  

200 points of damage against a stonehorn WITH ethereal amulet

8 wounds (~250 points) to a vampire lord on the zombie dragon WITH the ethereal amulet

This unit can reliably do 50-75%  its points in value in shooting, at range, against some of the toughest things in the game and across a wide spectrum of targets. I'd be totally excited if they were just great against hordes, but this is brutal. Add in a change host so you are guaranteed to get it off, and you will have a hard time not paying for yourself with minimal downside.  It doesn't even need the teleport since a 9 inch move and 18 inch range will get in range of a lot of the board t1 anyway, So you can teleport up your horror screens. 

The only other shooting comparable is in cities, which requires significantly more set-up, both in points (bridge, a support caster, sometimes CP's etc, expensive hurricanum) and a lot more finicky, compared to 'walk up, your entire front line is half dead'

[simakover]

found video from Cancon, even list. but question is how Demonrift can be cast without any wizard from StD? it can be cast only with StD wizzards, no?

[Maddpainting]

A  DoT wizard has the StD keyword so can cast it with that.

[Gwendar]

40 minutes ago, Frowny said:

This unit can reliably do 50-75%  its points in value in shooting, at range, against some of the toughest things in the game and across a wide spectrum of targets. I'd be totally excited if they were just great against hordes, but this is brutal. Add in a change host so you are guaranteed to get it off, and you will have a hard time not paying for yourself with minimal downside.  It doesn't even need the teleport since a 9 inch move and 18 inch range will get in range of a lot of the board t1 anyway, So you can teleport up your horror screens.

I don't disagree, I know they're overtly strong. Plenty of lists have shown that Chanehost hasn't been needed as that 27" threat range is enough. The part where Changehost is beneficial is when you see your opponent has something equally as killy (say, 6 Stormfiends or 20-30 Irondrakes + a Bridge) and you will have the easy decision thanks to a 1-drop to take out their key piece T1 as many battleplans will not allow such units to be out of range\hidden from their range. Not everyone can bring enough bodies to conga-line and prevent this on long deployments either.

A reduction in attacks would be an easy bandaid, but it will incentivize taking bigger units so.. it wouldn't really change anything. I planned on building a 12 Flamer Conflag list but after seeing these types of results, I don't want to be 'that guy' nor do I want to waste money on something that can potentially be beaten down to being useless.. sort of like what everyone did with the Skullcannons until the Wrathmonger FAQ.

The game is won on objectives, so when you have 1-2 units that can take another off the board per turn combined with 1-2 units that most armies cannot do enough damage to in order to clear; yeah, it's a bit strong. That isn't even counting the 1-3 drops giving you a ton of influence on the first turn.

 

35 minutes ago, simakover said:

found video from Cancon, even list. but question is how Demonrift can be cast without any wizard from StD? it can be cast only with StD wizzards, no?

Gaunt Summoner has StD keyword and thus he can cast it.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

A  DoT wizard has the StD keyword so can cast it with that.

I really don’t see a problem with it. You have a limited selection of wizards to cast it and you need to end it within 18” of the Lord of Change to dispel it for it to be worth using. So it’s a 530 point tax to bring in a model that can’t hold an objective and you probably won’t be casting all game.

If it goes to “only StD” units we could just ally them in anyway.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Maddpainting]

8 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I really don’t see a problem with it. You need both a Gaunt Summoner in your list to cast it, and you need to end it within 18” of the Lord of Change to dispel it for it to be worth using. If it goes to “only StD” units we could just ally them in anyway.

I want only the +1 MW to be keyword to work for StD Wizard units, so a DoT unit can still cast it, still do D3 MW's, still get +1MW with the StD keyword wizard, and still +1  MW for each endless spell.  So that caster and couple endless spells still puts out 3+D3 MW's to X units, the big difference is that Horrors and the other non StD hero wizards wont stack that also.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Maddpainting

[MattyP]

6 hours ago, simakover said:

So we are waiting nerf of tzeentch? Without devastating units changehost and super defensive horrors tzeentch already dominate meta. That do you think?

i am nervous about the FAQ.  Im seeing quite a lot of comments where people are up in arms about how Flamers, horrors, changehost are broken/overpowered/ not fun etc. (this is summation of what i'm seeing) and an over correction or large nerf may be the result.

[LordPrometheus]

7 minutes ago, MattyP said:

i am nervous about the FAQ.  Im seeing quite a lot of comments where people are up in arms about how Flamers, horrors, changehost are broken/overpowered/ not fun etc. (this is summation of what i'm seeing) and an over correction or large nerf may be the result.

It's exactly what they did to Stormcast when Sacrosanct chamber came out. It was all "Boo hoo, muh Evocators and Sequitors!!", and boom, nerfed for no reason. Those units never dominated any tournaments or created unfun play experiences, but enough online whiners and GW smacked them anyway.

Edited January 27, 2020 by LordPrometheus

[Forrix]

24 minutes ago, MattyP said:

i am nervous about the FAQ.  Im seeing quite a lot of comments where people are up in arms about how Flamers, horrors, changehost are broken/overpowered/ not fun etc. (this is summation of what i'm seeing) and an over correction or large nerf may be the result.

Yeah, Flamers are already so fragile for their points and all the pitchfork waving about how 50 wounds for 200 points is game breaking just by itself has me worried that GW will knee-****** and nerf them into oblivion.

[Maddpainting]

1 minute ago, Forrix said:

Yeah, Flamers are already so fragile for their points and all the pitchfork waving about how 50 wounds for 200 points is game breaking just by itself has me worried that GW will knee-****** and nerf them into oblivion.

Yep me too. I sent them a letter asking them not to over nerf them, that they just need a little bit of a damage reduction and not a points change.

[Grimrock]

Yeah I'm not going to touch my tzeentch at all until I see the FAQ. Even then it might be worth waiting until the summer for the full balance FAQ before spending any money.

[mmimzie]

The whining is pretty stupid.

 

Literally cities of sigmar had the same sort of thing occur. Book comes out they win an event and top table a few. Every one cries hollow heart is OP. Thankfully however no one listened and the only real nerf they got was you have to take the damage which is what most list did and do anyway. 

 

I will not be one to say tzneetch is bad or needs a buff. That said I think before we get our undies in a bunch, we need to give it time to play out. We have to see how the meta adjust.

 

The honest wargamer guys are a part of the problem too as on thier cancon video they said "we are the pros we know when we see OP stuff"  funny too they said the same about cities of sigmar and deepkin eela when they broke into the scene. However, look at both those armies now deepkin has never had the meta on its back at best it climbed to 56% win rate. Cities too struggle to make it above 50%. Though they do well enough. 

 

The culture of needs is a bit dumb and very much knee ****** and reactionary and we don't look at the victims of this random mob style lynchings. 

 

I'm a tournament player and I know that the casual scene is the most important things to the health and growth of the community and the business that is GW. 

 

Punishing hobbyist who jump in on stuff like nurgle because it looks cool, KO because they look cool, and other over needed armies is very terrible for thier game experience. Even more so when much of it is unwarranted.

 

This is all a symptom of GWs FAQ policies and slow updates, saddly.  I think a better outlet for this vitriol is to complain to GW that they either need to go all digital with monthly or bi month updates, or have more periods after book release where their game impact is reviewed. 

 

This would be a wiser solution rather than screaming like chicks who need feeding.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Yeah, literally the only thing that this tournament reveals should be addressed is Changehost, and probably Host Duplicitous.

Everything else is just a knee-****** reaction at this time.

[Malakithe]

Im seeing a lot of complaining but not a lot of ideas or possible solutions. People whining just to jump on the whining bandwagon isnt helping. 

Changing the spell keyword to StD only would be a good fix to that. Dropping the Flamers attacks to 2 each might help...or it might encourage people to take more units just like how they changed the HB unit size from 30 to 20. Guess what? Now people just take more of them. I can see Flamers going back up in points as thats almost always how GW 'fixes' stuff. 

Then theres Horrors...whats everyones solutions to change them? Without them doing a complete warscroll overhaul i dont see them changing at all. Maybe points adjustments.

Realistically everyone should bunker down and prepare to wait months before something changes. 

[Maddpainting]

Flamers are 120pts, if you take "more" then you have less of other things. So wouldnt that still be good?

[mmimzie]

You don't change it without more data. I don't super know the cancon results, but as I understand only 2 tzneetch list at the top tables last round with one winning? All in gyrhan where you can heal D6 with life swarm. Heck in the interview the winner even said he didn't understand his opponents list and didn't realize the threats💤. Hell they even rules for the event that the LoC could pick up endless spell anytime in the hero phase!!! This blows my mind that people are even upset. 

 

While only 1 tzneetch list made it to top tables at lvo, and it wasn't even change host, and it didn't win. 😮

They did well at tempest. 4 in top 10. However 3 had change host? And only 2 had eternal conflag? 🎉  This is the most compelling nerf tzneetch argument. Too bad they didn't win  

What awesome results worth complaining about and definitely the perfect sized pull full of condemning evidence to nuke a faction. 

 

23 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Realistically everyone should bunker down and prepare to wait months before something changes. 

 Truth

 

If we do change things we have to see if it's needed, and what makes things strong.

 

Change host is good not for the teleport. Heck some folks see the LoC as a tax, and bridge could do the same for less point in a list that gets about every spell off near automatically. It's good because it's 1 drop and let's you take most of what you want. 

 

Flamers aren't good in a vacuum and neither are horrors. Heck horrors in my mind are clan rats in almost everyway. Both can get a lot of buffs and made to do some real damage, but they need a lot of support.  While flamers need protection from something but damage wise are pretty good out the box for a shooting unit, and can be buffed very well.

[Daramiz]

15 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

You don't change it without more data. I don't super know the cancon results, but as I understand only 2 tzneetch list at the top tables last round with one winning? All in gyrhan where you can heal D6 with life swarm. Heck in the interview the winner even said he didn't understand his opponents list and didn't realize the threats💤. Hell they even rules for the event that the LoC could pick up endless spell anytime in the hero phase!!! This blows my mind that people are even upset. 

While only 1 tzneetch list made it to top tables at lvo, and it wasn't even change host, and it didn't win. 😮

They did well at tempest. 4 in top 10. However 3 had change host? And only 2 had eternal conflag? 🎉  This is the most compelling nerf tzneetch argument. Too bad they didn't win  

What awesome results worth complaining about and definitely the perfect sized pull full of condemning evidence to nuke a faction. 

No one serious wants the faction to be nuked. Getting places 2-4 at Tempest and 1-3 at GW GT definitely merit evaluating whether small adjustments could be made. LVO didn't use the new tome to my knowledge, so those results don't reflect current rules.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Daramiz

[mmimzie]

8 minutes ago, Daramiz said:

No one serious wants the faction to be nuked. Getting places 2-4 at Tempest and 1-3 at GW GT definitely merit evaluating whether small adjustments could be made. LVO didn't use the new tome to my knowledge, so those results don't reflect current rules.

My friend that was at the event tolde today that lvo did use the book. It made it just in time for the deadline.

[Maddpainting]

25 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

While only 1 tzneetch list made it to top tables at lvo, and it wasn't even change host, and it didn't win. 😮

They did well at tempest. 4 in top 10. However 3 had change host? And only 2 had eternal conflag? 🎉  This is the most compelling nerf tzneetch argument. Too bad they didn't win  

What awesome results worth complaining about and definitely the perfect sized pull full of condemning evidence to nuke a faction. 

Did you see the other 2 events that went on this last weekend? B.c DoT took 1st in both of them. For Warhammer grand event DoT tabled 2 players by turn 2 and took top 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Daramiz]

4 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

My friend that was at the event tolde today that lvo did use the book. It made it just in time for the deadline.

Just checked the lists, these are definitely old book.

[Gwendar]

44 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Hell they even rules for the event that the LoC could pick up endless spell anytime in the hero phase!!! This blows my mind that people are even upset. 

 

They did well at tempest. 4 in top 10. However 3 had change host? And only 2 had eternal conflag? 🎉  This is the most compelling nerf tzneetch argument. Too bad they didn't win  

What awesome results worth complaining about and definitely the perfect sized pull full of condemning evidence to nuke a faction. 

The LoC can do this, this wasn't some special rule at Cancon if that's what you're saying. Yeah, they did well and OBR did quite well at first too. Slaanesh and FeC were the big bad's for the longest time; things like this always happen. But Tzeentch is.. I dunno, different? It seems more akin to FeC\Slaanesh levels of power during their haydays and that isn't good.

44 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Change host is good not for the teleport. Heck some folks see the LoC as a tax, and bridge could do the same for less point in a list that gets about every spell off near automatically. It's good because it's 1 drop and let's you take most of what you want. 

 

Flamers aren't good in a vacuum and neither are horrors. Heck horrors in my mind are clan rats in almost everyway. Both can get a lot of buffs and made to do some real damage, but they need a lot of support.  While flamers need protection from something but damage wise are pretty good out the box for a shooting unit, and can be buffed very well.

I half agree. The utility of that on certain battleplans is absolutely nuts. Being a 1-drop that includes things you want to take anyway is obviously top-tier.. but playing highly competitive Seraphon armies frequently in my area has given me a lot of fear\respect for 2 free teleports per turn so I think you're selling that aspect short.

I really wouldn't compare Horrors to Clanrats of all things. People are often not spending resources to buff Clanrats; they're a screen more often than not and can be surprisingly good at snagging objectives. I don't see Horrors needing a lot of support at all. In Conflag alone they are doing pretty significant damage and you really don't need to do anything but have a Hero nearby to give them the -1 to hit. 40 Clanrats for 200 points is not equal to 10 Horrors when you can bring more back with healing\Fold. Like most shooting units, Flamers are sitting behind screens and plinking away at things.

20 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

My friend that was at the event tolde today that lvo did use the book. It made it just in time for the deadline.

This is incorrect, the old rules were used as the cut-off was missed by 1-day if I recall.

[simakover]

On cancon winner use emerald lifeswarm to heal pinks, but they use a realms for buffing endlesses. Would you use a emerald in games without realm rules? Is d3 heal still strong?

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

 really wouldn't compare Horrors to Clanrats of all things. People are often not spending resources to buff Clanrats; they're a screen more often than not and can be surprisingly good at snagging objectives. I don't see Horrors needing a lot of support at all. In Conflag alone they are doing pretty significant damage and you really don't need to do anything but have a Hero nearby to give them the -1 to hit.

You need to spend your destiny dice on them every turn to keep them from running away.

[Nagash42]

I would say the swarm wouldn't be as strong but bringing back pinks is still really good. 

[Nagash42]

8 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

You need to spend your destiny dice on them every turn to keep them from running away.

yeah without destiny dice killing pinks isn't hard unless the pinks get really lucky with bravery tests.