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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

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Random query: According to the core rules, an unmodified 1 to hit, wound, or save auto-fails.

If that's true, why does the LoC initially have a 1+ to wound characteristic on his Staff of Tzeentch? Just to protect against a debuff?

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2 minutes ago, OkayestDM said:

Random query: According to the core rules, an unmodified 1 to hit, wound, or save auto-fails.

If that's true, why does the LoC initially have a 1+ to wound characteristic on his Staff of Tzeentch? Just to protect against a debuff?

Yeah, and incidentally it seems that this is the direction they’re taking behemoths in general.

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Just now, Sinfullyvannila said:

Yeah, and incidentally it seems that this is the direction they’re taking behemoths in general.

Huh, interesting. Thanks!

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My guess is that if you follow the rule of thumb laid out in the designer's commentary for the core rules that says whenever there is a rule conflict between something in a battletome and the core rules, you side with the battletome. Following that logic, it seems to me that the battletome is trying to say that this model wounds on a 1+, basically is auto wounds unless its under a -1 to wound debuff.

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11 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

My guess is that if you follow the rule of thumb laid out in the designer's commentary for the core rules that says whenever there is a rule conflict between something in a battletome and the core rules, you side with the battletome. Following that logic, it seems to me that the battletome is trying to say that this model wounds on a 1+, basically is auto wounds unless its under a -1 to wound debuff.

There's no contradiction.  1+ on the chart is consistent with unmodified wound rolls of 1 always failing.

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10 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

There's no contradiction.  1+ on the chart is consistent with unmodified wound rolls of 1 always failing.

Having 1+ printed in the battletome may be a shorthand way of saying the attack wounds on a 1+.  This contradicts the core rule that says 1s always fail. If this isn't a contradiction then there is no reason for the authors to have printed it this way.

Also side note, I find it hilarious in this community one can ask for advise with a list and get zero responses for weeks/months but as soon as you post your thoughts about a rule oddity someone within minutes is ready to tell you about how you're wrong lol. 

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42 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Having 1+ printed in the battletome may be a shorthand way of saying the attack wounds on a 1+.  This contradicts the core rule that says 1s always fail. If this isn't a contradiction then there is no reason for the authors to have printed it this way.

Also side note, I find it hilarious in this community one can ask for advise with a list and get zero responses for weeks/months but as soon as you post your thoughts about a rule oddity someone within minutes is ready to tell you about how you're wrong lol. 

List requests get lost pretty quickly in the traffic that comes with a new release. If you post it now I will advise to the best of my ability.

 

This would fall under “the most important rule clause”, in which case you should discuss it with your opponent. The reason I’ve seen it (nearly universally) interpreted as not auto-fail Protection is that the wound rolls fail on an unmodified 1. However a “1+” is not unmodified since the + necessarily  informs that modifiers are involved. I agree it would be much better written as +1 to-wound with the appropriate adjustments to the damage tables though.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila

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27 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

List requests get lost pretty quickly in the traffic that comes in a new release. If you post it now I will advise to the best of my ability.

Thanks bud I appreciate that! My lists that got lost in discussions are either not Tzeentch lists or I've since been playing them to the point where I don't really need advise on them.

HOWEVER! Since you're offering your help I'll share my Guild of Summoners list that I've been messing with :D. At the moment I think GoS best suits my current Tzeentch collection but personally I'm more excited to eventually run Eternal Conflagration/Changehost and Pyrofane Cult/Wytchfire Coven. once I get more Flamers and Acolytes.
 

I suppose this list is a little unconventional because I don't have Kairos Fateweaver and I'm not ready to get another $140 model but I do have 2 regular LoC which I think I can rely on having 1 on the first turn and both by the 3rd turn.

Curseling (General)
Prophet of the Ostensible
Glimpse the Future

The Changeling
Treason of Tzeentch

Tzaangor Shaman
Brimstone Familiar
Shield of Fate

The Blue Scribes
Tzeentch's Firestorm

Gaunt Summoner
Arcane Suggestion

Gaunt Summoner
Unchecked Mutation

Battleline:
Tzaangors x20

Kairic Acolytes x10

Kairic Acolytes x10

Other:
Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs x6

Endless Spells:
Balewind Vortex

Obviously the Gaunt Summoners will each bring with them a unit of 10 Pink Horrors. Thats 13 spells on turn 1 I should be able to cast and then 17 from turn 2+ so I can expect to get those big birds out early and they will have Bolt of Change. 

Changeling hangs with the foot Tzaangors and gives whatever  they fight -1 to hit. The Tzaangor Shaman supports Tzaangors and Enlightened even further by giving them immunity to battleshock.

The Blue Scribes sit on top of the Balewind Vortex so he can cast his warscroll spell and give all my wizards rerolls to cast and still cast another spell, such as Tzeentch's Firestorm, an endless spell, or a spell that he's learned over the course of the game.

If anything I might drop the Curseling. I'll still have a decent chance at getting 9 fate points on turn 1 without him and then I'll have enough room for Gemenids, Purple Sun, and Pendulum, which might serve me better in the long run.

Edited by Reezark_SP

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1 minute ago, Reezark_SP said:

Thanks bud I appreciate that! My lists that got lost in discussions are either not Tzeentch lists or I've since been playing them to the point where I don't really need advise on them.

HOWEVER! Since you're offering your help I'll share my Guild of Summoners list that I've been messing with. At the moment I think GoS best suits my current Tzeentch collection but personally I'm more excited to eventually run Eternal Conflagration/Changehost and Pyrofane Cult/Wytchfire Coven. once I get more Flamers and Acolytes.
 

I suppose this list is a little unconventional because I don't have Kairos Fateweaver and I'm not ready to get another $140 model but I do have 2 regular LoC which I think I can rely on having 1 on the first turn and both by the 3rd turn.

Curseling (General)
Prophet of the Ostensible
Glimpse the Future

The Changeling
Treason of Tzeentch

Tzaangor Shaman
Brimstone Familiar
Shield of Fate

The Blue Scribes
Tzeentch's Firestorm

Gaunt Summoner
Arcane Suggestion

Gaunt Summoner
Unchecked Mutation

Battleline:
Tzaangors x20

Kairic Acolytes x10

Kairic Acolytes x10

Other:
Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs x6

Endless Spells:
Balewind Vortex

Obviously the Gaunt Summoners will each bring with them a unit of 10 Pink Horrors. Thats 13 spells on turn 1 I should be able to cast and then 17 from turn 2+ so I can expect to get those big birds out early and they will have Bolt of Change. 

Changeling hangs with the foot Tzaangors and gives whatever  they fight -1 to hit. The Tzaangor Shaman supports Tzaangors and Enlightened even further by giving them immunity to battleshock.

The Blue Scribes sit on top of the Balewind Vortex so he can cast his warscroll spell and give all my wizards rerolls to cast and still cast another spell, such as Tzeentch's Firestorm, an endless spell, or a spell that he's learned over the course of the game.

If anything I might drop the Curseling. I'll still have a decent chance at getting 9 fate points on turn 1 without him and then I'll have enough room for Gemenids, Purple Sun, and Pendulum, which might serve me better in the long run.

Just remember Gaunts use a spell cast on the turn that they bring out horrors.

I like this list. I’ve been running Enlightened in all of my lists so far and have found them to still be excellent hammers that are well worth the points. My advice would be to try to support them with 2 - hit debuffs to make their Visions of the Past a much safer bet.

My criticism is generic to any list that brings at least one Gaunt; you are introducing an element of Alpha Strike vulnerability. I’d put them both behind your 20 unit of Tzaangors and run with your horrors to cover the board more quickly.

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Thanks for the feedback!

I do realize that the Gaunts only cast 1 spell when they summon, but luckily they make up for it by summoning in the hero phase so the Pink's spellcasting is their "second" spell of the turn :)

Completely agreed with you on the Enlightened. They were my favorite Tzeentch unit before the new book and used to run 9 in nearly all my lists. I'm not bummed so much by their price hike I think they make up for it by being able to to easily complete most agendas. Good call on trying to maximize the minus to hit debuffs. Arcane suggestion might be a better pick for the Tzaangor Shaman who will likeley be sticking by them most of the time anyway.

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4 hours ago, OkayestDM said:

Random query: According to the core rules, an unmodified 1 to hit, wound, or save auto-fails.

If that's true, why does the LoC initially have a 1+ to wound characteristic on his Staff of Tzeentch? Just to protect against a debuff?

It's to help with debuffs , a 1 to wound will still fail but it will still be a 2up to wound with a debuff. 

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6 hours ago, Killamike said:

The interactions aren't nearly the same. To try say that sequitors and clanrats have the same presence on the table is wrong.  

You don't have to do 5 wound to a rat or sequitors to remove it from the space it occupies. 

You can't kill a rat and create more bodies on the objective.  You can't just bring them back either. 

Yes the pinks die first and the banner with them. But then the banner gets folded back in.  So now you have to put more resources into killing the banner off again. 

The final game of cancon 10 pinks became 72 wounds at the end of the game across 3 objectives. 

I play Tzeentch and have for a long time but I'm not gonna sit here and ****** in the wind because I want my dudes to be the best.   

Yes to all this and the near universal -1 to hit in combat and plenty of ways to drop even more to hit modifiers.

Also, as only some of the models are on the board they have build in protection against any horde control spells that rely on number of models in the target unit. No small thing since lots of the newer tombs have a 'roll a dice for each model in the target unit' type spells.

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6 hours ago, Killamike said:

The interactions aren't nearly the same. To try say that sequitors and clanrats have the same presence on the table is wrong.  

You don't have to do 5 wound to a rat or sequitors to remove it from the space it occupies. 

You can't kill a rat and create more bodies on the objective.  You can't just bring them back either. 

Yes the pinks die first and the banner with them. But then the banner gets folded back in.  So now you have to put more resources into killing the banner off again. 

The final game of cancon 10 pinks became 72 wounds at the end of the game across 3 objectives. 

I play Tzeentch and have for a long time but I'm not gonna sit here and ****** in the wind because I want my dudes to be the best.   

I still think you miss mmimzie point. The horrors on their own are not a power house unit - the combination of horrors, flamers and changehost mechanics is what makes the list above and beyond. I regularly play against Skaven and StD - 40 wounds strong units that can hold objectives are not hard to come by and most armies have ways to deal with them. The no modify nonsenses on Destiny dice should be FAQ but the rest - they are good but in a vacuum not a power unit. I honestly believe (and agree) that they were stronger in the previous iteration where I could freely throw out 2+ units of blue per turn while blasting people with endless spells from the pinks. If you would remove the changehost (or change it), dull (but not destroy) the power of flamers and maybe change the no retreat of Dup host the absolute majority of all complains will die down.

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5 hours ago, Reezark_SP said:

Thanks bud I appreciate that! My lists that got lost in discussions are either not Tzeentch lists or I've since been playing them to the point where I don't really need advise on them.

HOWEVER! Since you're offering your help I'll share my Guild of Summoners list that I've been messing with :D. At the moment I think GoS best suits my current Tzeentch collection but personally I'm more excited to eventually run Eternal Conflagration/Changehost and Pyrofane Cult/Wytchfire Coven. once I get more Flamers and Acolytes.
 

I suppose this list is a little unconventional because I don't have Kairos Fateweaver and I'm not ready to get another $140 model but I do have 2 regular LoC which I think I can rely on having 1 on the first turn and both by the 3rd turn.

Curseling (General)
Prophet of the Ostensible
Glimpse the Future

The Changeling
Treason of Tzeentch

Tzaangor Shaman
Brimstone Familiar
Shield of Fate

The Blue Scribes
Tzeentch's Firestorm

Gaunt Summoner
Arcane Suggestion

Gaunt Summoner
Unchecked Mutation

Battleline:
Tzaangors x20

Kairic Acolytes x10

Kairic Acolytes x10

Other:
Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs x6

Endless Spells:
Balewind Vortex

Obviously the Gaunt Summoners will each bring with them a unit of 10 Pink Horrors. Thats 13 spells on turn 1 I should be able to cast and then 17 from turn 2+ so I can expect to get those big birds out early and they will have Bolt of Change. 

Changeling hangs with the foot Tzaangors and gives whatever  they fight -1 to hit. The Tzaangor Shaman supports Tzaangors and Enlightened even further by giving them immunity to battleshock.

The Blue Scribes sit on top of the Balewind Vortex so he can cast his warscroll spell and give all my wizards rerolls to cast and still cast another spell, such as Tzeentch's Firestorm, an endless spell, or a spell that he's learned over the course of the game.

If anything I might drop the Curseling. I'll still have a decent chance at getting 9 fate points on turn 1 without him and then I'll have enough room for Gemenids, Purple Sun, and Pendulum, which might serve me better in the long run.

It is almost my exact list posted few pages ago, except than I put kairos+gaunt at start in place of 2 gaunt, for only TWO reasons:

- I'm waiting the errata/faq before investing in another 10pink/2blues/1gaunt (and I don't really like the horrors minis, prefering mostly the tzaangors)

- I love the big bird: kairos. But if the FAQ tells (=read CONFIRM) us that it can be summoned via guild of summoners (can summona LORD of CHANGE units!!!), then maybe I'll go the 2 gaunt route. Not sure. I like the spawn summoning of magister and kairos when they kill units...

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So we are waiting nerf of tzeentch? Without devastating units changehost and super defensive horrors tzeentch already dominate meta. That do you think?

Edited by simakover

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Honestly they just need to make 2 changes, Darkfire Daemonrift would only work for StD wizards,a nd Flamers need to be 2 attacks instead of 3. Changehost really isnt all that powerful especially if you are using Flamers, as you need to teleport the Flamer and the Exalted together to get the buffs. 

I hope they don;t over nerf it like they did with the Nurgle CP. 


Also Changehost Flamer lists has a clear way to beat it, just at these events not many players had those units int heir lists. Pre game movements, throw away low count cheap units, and deepstrike/outflanking units. Some Nighthaunt, COS, BoC lists would hard counter a Changehost/Flamer list. But sadly a lot of armies don't have those tools, and OBR being 20mans at times, thats 27 hits on them per every 3 flamers, take 6 and now thats 54 hits, 18 will go through, 18 D3 is an average of 36 wounds, meaning 6 flamers near an Exalted kills 30 OBR M guard even with a 6+++. 

Taking 1 attack off now means they only at max get (for a 6man unit) 36 hits compare to 54, thats 18 hits less, thats a 40% drop in damage with 1 change. Now vs OBR its only 10 wounds (I'm rounding in my head so might be off by 1) for 20D, now that unit is still alive with after saves. Against Clan rats at equal points they'll live now too.

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18 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Darkfire Daemonrift would only work for StD wizards


Pre game movements, throw away low count cheap units, and deepstrike/outflanking units. Some Nighthaunt, COS, BoC lists would hard counter a Changehost/Flamer list. But sadly a lot of armies don't have those tools, and OBR being 20mans at times, thats 27 hits on them per every 3 flamers, take 6 and now thats 54 hits, 18 will go through, 18 D3 is an average of 36 wounds, meaning 6 flamers near an Exalted kills 30 OBR M guard even with a 6+++. 

I doubt this will change.. you've been able to include allied Wizards and their factions spells for quite some time like a Knight Incantor + Comet. It just makes more sense as a Tzeentch spell, in the end and it's quite good.. but I wouldn't say it's too strong. I think combining it with a LoC's auto-dispel is what makes it above and beyond as there's no risk to yourself.

I'm really not sure where you're getting your math of 27 hits with 3 Flamers since at most you're only getting 10 attacks from that? They're definitely strong as we've been discussing but the damage you're describing is a bit incorrect. If you take 1x9 Flamers with an Exalted nearby (but for this example, not shooting) Fatemaster buff + Aura and shoot at 20+ Mortek (so 28 shots at 2\2\-1\d3) then you're looking at 30 damage on average against their 4+ which is taking the -1 rend into account and assuming they're PE. After the 6++, yeah you're probably still killing them.. but 3-6 Flamers certainly aren't going to on average. 1x6 with the same buffs are doing 20 so even that can be iffy. Regardless, heavy shooting is a direct counter to Bonereapers anyway.

Pre-game moves and teleports with the armies you described help but I wouldn't say they're a hard counter in any way. Just like any other army, Tzeentch could easily screen out any >9" deepstriking or board edge shenanigans and with the 1-drop they will have a huge amount of T1\2 control.

 

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1 hour ago, simakover said:

So we are waiting nerf of tzeentch? Without devastating units changehost and super defensive horrors tzeentch already dominate meta. That do you think?

I'm not waiting a nerf tbh: Im more likely to wait some clarifications and confirmations before investing some more bucks into miniatures that I don't want to be stuck on the shelves. 1)  LoC summoning (can Kairos be summoned) &  2) pink horrors summoning + point cost. That's all for me. I like this new battletome full of resources and with synergies with StD. As a non competitive player, Changehost is just the cherry on a (already delicious) cake.

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29 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I doubt this will change.. you've been able to include allied Wizards and their factions spells for quite some time like a Knight Incantor + Comet. It just makes more sense as a Tzeentch spell, in the end and it's quite good.. but I wouldn't say it's too strong. I think combining it with a LoC's auto-dispel is what makes it above and beyond as there's no risk to yourself.

I'm really not sure where you're getting your math of 27 hits with 3 Flamers since at most you're only getting 10 attacks from that? They're definitely strong as we've been discussing but the damage you're describing is a bit incorrect. If you take 1x9 Flamers with an Exalted nearby (but for this example, not shooting) Fatemaster buff + Aura and shoot at 20+ Mortek (so 28 shots at 2\2\-1\d3) then you're looking at 30 damage on average against their 4+ which is taking the -1 rend into account and assuming they're PE. After the 6++, yeah you're probably still killing them.. but 3-6 Flamers certainly aren't going to on average. 1x6 with the same buffs are doing 20 so even that can be iffy. Regardless, heavy shooting is a direct counter to Bonereapers anyway.

Pre-game moves and teleports with the armies you described help but I wouldn't say they're a hard counter in any way. Just like any other army, Tzeentch could easily screen out any >9" deepstriking or board edge shenanigans and with the 1-drop they will have a huge amount of T1\2 control.

 

I know what i messed up I was talking about 3, 6, 9 man units and adding in the Exalted too (sometimes 1 man, sometimes 2mans, i've seen 3 mans with a 9 man unit of flamers), so Sorry i my english is very poor and i have a disorder for writing. Sorry if  wasn't clear (As i wasn't) I didnt double check my writing like i normally do as i was on the phone with the wife and hit click without reading. (I have not a reading diorder, but its when i talk/write i process words i want to say wrong, i might want to type out "They get 3 hits" and i'll type out "Hits get 3 for" IDK where the for came from or why its backwards, its a processing issue on top of English is hard for me)


Each flamer is 3 shots, they get a +1 to hit if against a unit of 10 or more and instead get a +2 to hits against a unit with 20 or mow. Right now vs a 20man unit if you are with all you buffs you can effectively never miss, Given Exalted behind them (or next to) also are 6 shots each hitting on 3+ normally so they might miss a couple b.c they might not hit a full unit of 20.


I'm saying in short 2 attacks each means a unit of 3 all hitting 6 times oppose to 9 hits. A unit of 6 hitting now 12 hits instead of 18, a unit of 9 hitting 18 instead of 27. THEN add in the exalted attacks which is 6/12/18 (18+18 is 36, 27+18 is 45, but i see i messed up and said 54)

Does this help make it more clear? I re-read it twice, to me its clear but not sure for others. 


EDIT: to add: About the StD spell, but it is a DtS spell so it should be more powerful in their army, you can still take it in DoT, and some of the heroes in DoT has the StD keyword and would still benefit from them, just not Horror units, and some other heroes, etc..

Edited by Maddpainting

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55 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

I know what i messed up I was talking about 3, 6, 9 man units and adding in the Exalted too (sometimes 1 man, sometimes 2mans, i've seen 3 mans with a 9 man unit of flamers), so Sorry i my english is very poor and i have a disorder for writing. Sorry if  wasn't clear (As i wasn't) I didnt double check my writing like i normally do as i was on the phone with the wife and hit click without reading. (I have not a reading diorder, but its when i talk/write i process words i want to say wrong, i might want to type out "They get 3 hits" and i'll type out "Hits get 3 for" IDK where the for came from or why its backwards, its a processing issue on top of English is hard for me)


Each flamer is 3 shots, they get a +1 to hit if against a unit of 10 or more and instead get a +2 to hits against a unit with 20 or mow. Right now vs a 20man unit if you are with all you buffs you can effectively never miss, Given Exalted behind them (or next to) also are 6 shots each hitting on 3+ normally so they might miss a couple b.c they might not hit a full unit of 20.


I'm saying in short 2 attacks each means a unit of 3 all hitting 6 times oppose to 9 hits. A unit of 6 hitting now 12 hits instead of 18, a unit of 9 hitting 18 instead of 27. THEN add in the exalted attacks which is 6/12/18 (18+18 is 36, 27+18 is 45, but i see i messed up and said 54)

Does this help make it more clear? I re-read it twice, to me its clear but not sure for others. 


EDIT: to add: About the StD spell, but it is a DtS spell so it should be more powerful in their army, you can still take it in DoT, and some of the heroes in DoT has the StD keyword and would still benefit from them, just not Horror units, and some other heroes, etc..

No worries! I just wanted to be sure everyone was clear on the damage 😅. You're fine man, seriously.. I didn't mean to come off rude, so I apologize if I did.

Overall, yeah, 2 attacks each would bring them 7 each (if you count the +1 for the leader, though obviously in 1x6 or higher you're still only getting 1 unit leader) which would definitely take them down a notch. A unit of 9 with the buffs mentioned in my last post would be ~20 damage vs a 4+ with the 6 attacks from the Exalted adding just a little more (with no buffs other than Aura, maybe ~4 damage on average?). So, yeah it could still be good.

I think the Horrors would make up for that obviously. They still would have the capacity to 1-shot certain units, just not everything. If you watch the winning CanCon Tzeentch list, you see that the Horrors are where it really shines. He constantly hit his own Pinks and healed\DD'd them to keep getting Pinks back to make a unit of 10 way over 50 wounds-worth and that lent to decent shooting.

As for the StD spell.. I see your point but the bottom line is it doesn't have to be more powerful in their army. The only reason it's so good in Tzeentch is because we can spam Wizards and Endless Spells. You would need to take that away to fix it or only allow StD Wizards to count and that that point it would be deemed worthless in both armies I would say.

Edited by Gwendar

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Nah you didn't come off rude or anything, i'm used to messing up what i type as it happens everyday and i can even be gibberish at times, the only time i get upset is by grammar police lol.  

Yeah, the Spell could have a better way of work, but after seeing 30+ damage a few times on multiple units (tho setup can fix that IMO) it seems a bit to strong. Against Nagash or other armies with great Unbinds however, it wont work to often without auto casting abilities.

So you understand my 2 attack vs 3 attacks, thats good. Not saying its the best fix as someone else could have a better fix. Its just one from watching a few videos (Onee was CanCon, the other 2 were Warhammer World Grand Tournament) yes the Horrors are strong too. But i think most already know they are working on a fix for them, just limiting bring back pinks once the pinks are gone would be a fine fix.

Edited by Maddpainting
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The event also took place in ghyran making life swarm a d6 heal. You won't normal get a no draw back d6 heal that very much favors that pink horror squad. 

 

Now if we could ally in hollow heart wizards with thier alliegence abilitys still intact....

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I can't believe people are already crying about Tzeentch and the book has only been out 2 weeks. Slaanesh double depravity  nonsense is STILL a thing, but somehow we're talking about nerfing FLAMERS and whining about endless spells??? Wtf??

You whiners are why Stormcast can't have nice things and get nerfed for no reason.

Edited by LordPrometheus
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47 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

If you watch the winning CanCon Tzeentch list, you see that the Horrors are where it really shines. He constantly hit his own Pinks and healed\DD'd them to keep getting Pinks back to make a unit of 10 way over 50 wounds-worth and that lent to decent shooting.
 

can you give me a link?

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4 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

I can't believe people are already crying about Tzeentch and the book has only been out 2 weeks. Slaanesh double depravity  nonsense is STILL a thing

Indeed, but it had already been a little nerfed with depravity cost increase in the latest FAQ (december).

Tzeentch is nice but I think it need some clarifications and adjustments on (very) few points. This is a really good battletome as it doesn't copy/paste the usuals builds of other factions. More of this, it adds some crossing synergies with StD making a super rich tome with various range of minis from daemons to mortals and tzangors...

I bet that it'll be even richer with the upcoming tome next week (everchoosen).

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