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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

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4 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Changehost is broken? its dominant against every army. Hey im gonna drop 100 wounds of horrors which are minus 1 to hit in melee into your army, I have an assured charge due to fate dice, and the army is single drop so I always go first. Have fun.

Bring some chaff and weight of dice units no? KO, living city, bonesplitters etc are all tough matchups even for changehost. 

Edited by CountryMou3e
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7 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

I'm sorry but a shooty tzeentch changehost is a hard counter to a melee orientated ELITE OBR army. Just an unfortunate matchup to be honest. Everyone keeps batting around that it needs FAQing.... what needs FAQing ? The rules are crystal clear 

Yes they are so less a FAQ and more a reduction of force for changehost is what is needed. I really hope that they will change so that flamers are no longer part of it (or something along the lines). Right now it is a nobrainer if you are gunning for maximum power.

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#Tzeentchgate is a tag on twitter. Ben savva, who is a fantastic player and one of the nicest guys you will ever play, posted " Okay so I just played 3 Changehosts in a row at GT Final. I honestly never been so disheartened doing a thing I love. Tzeentch is not even playing Warhammer anymore. It does everything it wants to do at no risk. It is going to ruin the game, that is not Hyperbole"

And he won 2 of the 3 games with bonesplitterz. Its a mobile gunline that has 3 times the wounds on the table as its opponents. its wildly broken. Its like slaanesh but much much worse.

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2 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Bring some chaff and weight of dice units no? KO, living city, bonesplitters etc are all tough matchups even for changehost. 

For changehost yes - for flamers and changehost not so much. You drop the 6-9 flamer unit and the 20 horror unit in range of what you want deleted first turn and then the rest is an uphill strugle for your opponent. Mind it is beatable but it is a real problem for most armies not geared against it.

Another problem is that when gearing against it is that the amount of special stuff needed will make you less effective against most other armies so you basically need to gimmick yourself for the odd chance of going against it.

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It also took 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Its all changehost, either conflagration or duplicitous. So it needs to be fixed in the FAQ / Errata

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28 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

#Tzeentchgate is a tag on twitter. Ben savva, who is a fantastic player and one of the nicest guys you will ever play, posted " Okay so I just played 3 Changehosts in a row at GT Final. I honestly never been so disheartened doing a thing I love. Tzeentch is not even playing Warhammer anymore. It does everything it wants to do at no risk. It is going to ruin the game, that is not Hyperbole"

And he won 2 of the 3 games with bonesplitterz. Its a mobile gunline that has 3 times the wounds on the table as its opponents. its wildly broken. Its like slaanesh but much much worse.

So he played against it three times, beat it twice, and therefore it's going to ruin the game? I feel like I'm missing something... Typo maybe? 

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6 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

So he played against it three times, beat it twice, and therefore it's going to ruin the game? I feel like I'm missing something... Typo maybe? 

Hes also avoiding the fact he played dok for over a year very successfully because hardly any armies had an answer for hagg nar and morathi, it wasnt till the points were addressed a year later that it calmed down.

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He beat it twice in games that only lasted to the third turn and ran to full time both games. He is also one of the best players i know. Joe random, myself in that grouping, would not be able to do what he did.

DoK still let you play the game. This army does not.

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6 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

He beat it twice in games that only lasted to the third turn and ran to full time both games. He is also one of the best players i know. Joe random, myself in that grouping, would not be able to do what he did.

DoK still let you play the game. This army does not.

I think if tzneetch at its current power level and mobility was melee he would have this complain. 

 

In AoS shooting/magic armies being good have a mild stigma or feel kind of cheaty or unfair.

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Just now, mmimzie said:

I think if tzneetch at its current power level and mobility was melee he would have this complain. 

 

In AoS shooting/magic armies being good have a mild stigma or feel kind of cheaty or unfair.

Its problem is its good at both melee and shooting. 100 wound minus 1 to hit units are a tough nut to crack for most armies. 

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That’s the event winners thoughts. Just in case you think it’s just sore losership from everyone on Twitter. 

7DAA28AB-EC36-4B02-B159-3EE407CB7B95.png

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My, my, how the tables have turned. It was cool when their armies were the best by far though - whiners. 

 

Edit: they shall nerf us as quickly as Slaanesh. I don't plan to run such lists anyways but still...

Edited by MitGas
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On 1/24/2020 at 9:11 PM, newsun said:

Looking at multitudinous summoners. Looking for thoughts and suggested changes.

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
Magister (100)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Multitudinous Host (160)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Burning Sigil of Tzeentch (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
 

Lifeswarm to regrow Horrors as well instead of Sigil?

Lovign some Multitudinous Host though!

 

 

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2 hours ago, CountryMou3e said:

I'm sorry but a shooty tzeentch changehost is a hard counter to a melee orientated ELITE OBR army. Just an unfortunate matchup to be honest. Everyone keeps batting around that it needs FAQing.... what needs FAQing ? The rules are crystal clear 

Well to be fair there is disagreement at the very least on whether Guild of Summoners includes Kairos or not.  There was the teleporting Balewind thing.  Not exactly sure if anyone else bought into the Pink's casting ability because the Wizard clause wasn't written as an If/Then statement.  Is the Gaunt Summoner Pink Horror warscroll vs Horrors of Tzeentch warscroll still a thing?  My point is that an FAQ is never a bad thing.  I'm making a distinction between an FAQ bring RAW in line with RAI and an errata which is essentially a nerf.   

Somewhat in agreement to a elite shooty army being a hard counter to an elite melee army.  I think it's useful to sort out how you WANT the meta to be from how a healthy one is.  I'm not too concerned about a ~60-70% win rate army complaining about anything.

 

Edited by Deadkitten

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47 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

That’s the event winners thoughts. Just in case you think it’s just sore losership from everyone on Twitter. 

7DAA28AB-EC36-4B02-B159-3EE407CB7B95.png

Honestly i don't need some one else opinion to make my own. In gaming i like very much making my own opinions and observations on the matter of how good or bad an army is, and one what units i want to take.

I've said my piece pages ago on my opinions on change host and flamers. It's a flamer specific issue where flamers might need a nerf or be dropped from change host. Even then on that note of flamer nerfing i'm just not sure if they need it as they individualy are easy enough targets and don't have table spanning range meaning they do need to get abit close, and thier damage numbers and durability aren't better than what cities of sigmar can do. While cities of sigmar has slightly less mobility but better melee unit options or a better magic phase. 

Remember when cities came out they were top 10ing and winning for about 2 or 3 weeks right out the gate. However since they have fallen off quite abit, and did not recieve any really points changes or real nerfs that account for this. It was more a shift it meta and increase in player knowledge. I know we all remember the crys of hollow heart being OP, and while they got a mild nerf in the mortal wounds needed to be taken only just very recently they had already fallen to thier current levels before the nerf, and most folks don't even try to negate said mortal wounds instead opting to just heal back the damage that is taken. 

As for horrors honestly they were stronger before giving you near limitless board control and many more points off healing and re-summoning of pink horrors, and then they were a bit cheaper for a while, and change host was better and more flexible. 

Now tzneetch is quite strong and change is still very strong, but again change host was kind of better before, and had never really risen to prominence over the meta. The true change host strength is one drop, as mind you any other decent shooting army can do the same thing and more with bridge even more so us with out powerful spell casters. If there is anything too strong it's flamers, and that's an if. 

I implore you to look at cities of sigmar and go back to thier release in thier threads and you will see multiple weeks of listed events where cities with spots 1, 2,3 or something like that when they first dropped. Community knowledge and reactions are an important thing, and  if a book is every release as a perfectly fair and balanced army it should always over preform in its first weeks because opponents won't know how to deal with it.

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2 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Honestly i don't need some one else opinion to make my own. In gaming i like very much making my own opinions and observations on the matter of how good or bad an army is, and one what units i want to take.

I've said my piece pages ago on my opinions on change host and flamers. It's a flamer specific issue where flamers might need a nerf or be dropped from change host. Even then on that note of flamer nerfing i'm just not sure if they need it as they individualy are easy enough targets and don't have table spanning range meaning they do need to get abit close, and thier damage numbers and durability aren't better than what cities of sigmar can do. While cities of sigmar has slightly less mobility but better melee unit options or a better magic phase. 

Remember when cities came out they were top 10ing and winning for about 2 or 3 weeks right out the gate. However since they have fallen off quite abit, and did not recieve any really points changes or real nerfs that account for this. It was more a shift it meta and increase in player knowledge. I know we all remember the crys of hollow heart being OP, and while they got a mild nerf in the mortal wounds needed to be taken only just very recently they had already fallen to thier current levels before the nerf, and most folks don't even try to negate said mortal wounds instead opting to just heal back the damage that is taken. 

As for horrors honestly they were stronger before giving you near limitless board control and many more points off healing and re-summoning of pink horrors, and then they were a bit cheaper for a while, and change host was better and more flexible. 

Now tzneetch is quite strong and change is still very strong, but again change host was kind of better before, and had never really risen to prominence over the meta. The true change host strength is one drop, as mind you any other decent shooting army can do the same thing and more with bridge even more so us with out powerful spell casters. If there is anything too strong it's flamers, and that's an if. 

I implore you to look at cities of sigmar and go back to thier release in thier threads and you will see multiple weeks of listed events where cities with spots 1, 2,3 or something like that when they first dropped. Community knowledge and reactions are an important thing, and  if a book is every release as a perfectly fair and balanced army it should always over preform in its first weeks because opponents won't know how to deal with it.

And look at how slaanesh was predicted to be bad and not touched with the faq errata hammer and proceeded to dominate the meta for six months. Sorry don’t want that again. Changehost is not fun to play or play against. It needs to be fixed 

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13 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

Lifeswarm to regrow Horrors as well instead of Sigil?

Lovign some Multitudinous Host though!

 

 

i wouldn't take life swarm. it'll set you bad as your damage is out of this world meaning you will likely have enemy units in need of healing and your oppoonent could use the life swarm for themselves to heal bigger models that will be of higher value than healing 2 pinks. 

Healing 2 pinks is 40 point swing durability wise, where as healing a terror ghiest 2 wounds is a 60 point swing. So those few heals aren't very high value when you consider your opponent could get more value out of the ability, and your also spending cast on this spell so while every timeyou cast it, it's worth 40 points its also gonna suck the value  of the wizards spell from you. 

I also think if you are going to run that list with no LoC on the table you'll honestly get more out of host duplisitous. I think the core power of guild of summoners is the extra CP to power up an LoC to buff your armies well spells and cascade into more LoCs who spawn up ready to throw fresh infernos at full wounds, and to keep giving you an LoC to keep the command ability in play. Plus your multiple units can be used to lot enemies in combat.

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2 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

And look at how slaanesh was predicted to be bad and not touched with the faq errata hammer and proceeded to dominate the meta for six months. Sorry don’t want that again. Changehost is not fun to play or play against. It needs to be fixed 

Thats more an issue of GW needing to see the current FAQ and errata cycle, learn that it has flaws, and adapt and find either a better time frame to tackle these issues or do what everyone else has and go digital. Instead of making them stupidly impulsive, vulnerable to dramatic flairs of misguided passion from its fan base, and overly nerfing things before seeing how good or bad they are in a real life test environment for a little bit. 

They should either:
Go digital with small monthly tweets and stop major tweeks after the first 6 months of 'book' release. Then keep those books on an ever 6 month points adjustment. 

or

Do faqs at 2 weeks, points adjustments and rules changes in the form of erratas at 2 months, and then a finalization at 6months where in they only do points changes every 6 months. 

Becoming impulsive just means we'll have more KOs, tzneetchs, Slave Nurgel daemon princes, and other units that get waaaaay over nerfed due to dramatic community response that don't look at the health of the over all game. 

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Well I’ve done what I could. We just can agree to agree to disagree on friendly terms mate. I would rather have slaves over nerfs then slaanesh under nerfs. 

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42 minutes ago, mmimzie said:



Becoming impulsive just means we'll have more KOs, tzneetchs, Slave Nurgel daemon princes, and other units that get waaaaay over nerfed due to dramatic community response that don't look at the health of the over all game. 

I would like for GW to spell this out the way that WotC does. 

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Horrors are the real issue, yes flamers do damage but so does a lot of other units out there.

Horrors are winning the games by just flooding the board with wounds, that are then folded or destiny diced back onto the table. And them just being auto immune to bshock with any dd is ridiculous. 

Flamers will die to any competent shooting or melee, you will not get through 100+ wounds of horrors controlling the board. 

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35 minutes ago, Killamike said:

Horrors are the real issue, yes flamers do damage but so does a lot of other units out there.

Horrors are winning the games by just flooding the board with wounds, that are then folded or destiny diced back onto the table. And them just being auto immune to bshock with any dd is ridiculous. 

Flamers will die to any competent shooting or melee, you will not get through 100+ wounds of horrors controlling the board. 

I agree, the winning CanCon list only use 6 flamers, but those horrors in the center objective did work.

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1 hour ago, Killamike said:

Horrors are the real issue, yes flamers do damage but so does a lot of other units out there.

Horrors are winning the games by just flooding the board with wounds, that are then folded or destiny diced back onto the table. And them just being auto immune to bshock with any dd is ridiculous. 

Flamers will die to any competent shooting or melee, you will not get through 100+ wounds of horrors controlling the board. 

 

1 hour ago, PUFNSTUF said:

I agree, the winning CanCon list only use 6 flamers, but those horrors in the center objective did work.

This is untrue as sequitors are more durable

 

And clan rats are alittle more durable for the points and give more bodies. 

 

Again the horror mechanic was simply stronger before and you say the banner beings them back? Then you don't understand how horrors work the Pink's die first and almost anything can do 20 would to a 6+, 6+  and thus you get no banner to destiny dice any models back. 

 

So the only real heal is fold and maybe life swarm of you wanna spend the points. 

 

Similar tank with similar number to Pink's is pheonix guard who are immune to battle shock and can heal d6 from life swarm and don't have to suffer the penalty rolling a 1 on fold will incur. While the pheonix guard can put out more damage. 

The flameeas being a cheap, small and mobile damage force are the only one that might be the out list in the army in my opinion.

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The interactions aren't nearly the same. To try say that sequitors and clanrats have the same presence on the table is wrong.  

You don't have to do 5 wound to a rat or sequitors to remove it from the space it occupies. 

You can't kill a rat and create more bodies on the objective.  You can't just bring them back either. 

Yes the pinks die first and the banner with them. But then the banner gets folded back in.  So now you have to put more resources into killing the banner off again. 

The final game of cancon 10 pinks became 72 wounds at the end of the game across 3 objectives. 

I play Tzeentch and have for a long time but I'm not gonna sit here and ****** in the wind because I want my dudes to be the best.   

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10 hours ago, newsun said:

If guild stated Lord of Change instead of LORD OF CHANGE, then you'd be correct. It does not so it's any with that keyword.

It refers to the model having “instead of a fate point cost of 30...” so it’s very obviously referencing specifically what can be summoned on the table.

Therefore, either the keyword use in guild of summoners or the lack of keyword use in the summoning table is an oversight. Needs clarification. However, I am inclined to agree that RAW, you cannot summon Kairos, as it is still the summoning table that is being referenced.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila

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