AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Myzyrael]

You are right, missed that piece that allows to override core rules. Seems like my summoning got a lot easier now ? thanks for clarifying that for me

[Maximum]

Alliance: Tzeentch

Realm: Chamon

 

Ogroid Thaumaturge

General

Section: Boundless mutation

Artifact: Godwrought helm

Lore of fate: Infusion Arcanum

 

Gaunt summoner

Artifact: aspect of Tzeentch

Lore of change: bolt of Tzeentch

 

Curseling

Lore of fate: glimpse the future

 

Tzaangor Shaman

Lore of change: fold reality

 

2x10 acolytes

 

20 tzaangors

 

6 skyfire

 

Battallion: alter-kin coven

 

Endless spell: belewind vortex, umbral spellportal, chronomatics cogs

 

Total: 1950/2000

 

This list, it seems fun, I do not know how competitive.

What do you think?

[The Cyclop Owl]

4 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

So before AoS 6 Nations I was toying with some lists and came up with something that was similar to a list taken by a Swedish player. It had relative success with the team taking second.

The list he fielded looked like this:

Leaders
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160) - General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy
- Artefact: Souldraught
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch

Tzaangor Shaman (180)
 - Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Lord Of Change (380)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might - Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield - 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield - 3x Cursed Glaives
30 x Tzaangors (480)
- 6x Pair of Savage Blade
- 12x Savage Greatblade
- 12x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (160)
 3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220)
 
Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (110)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Umbral Spellportal (60)
 Total: 1990 / 2000

Im not completely sold on the list. I still think the Kairic Acolytes are very weak and with only 3 skyfires/Enlightened the list may lack damage if the 30 Tzaangors are killed. I also think the lack of bodies on the table might be an issue.  Also I’m not 100% on the lord of change I’m not convince he’s worth 380 points. 

This list is also heavily countered by engine spam and was beaten turn two by Darren Watson’s Seraphon list. However, I think the next FAQ will fix that.

So what do you guys think?
 

Actually I got him to comment on the 6 Nations list thread, and I think the list might be rather solid. The Skyfires are only giving support and they’ll be somewhat unreliable, but the list itself is quite appealing to me because of the 30 murderous tzaangors running and charging through the field. 

 

If you want more in-depth analysis, head to that thread.

[TheRedWizard]

Does the Eternal Conflagration still require the Warpflame host to include 6 units? Not sure if it’s a tweak or the app is just missing that bit.

 

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, TheRedWizard said:

Does the Eternal Conflagration still require the Warpflame host to include 6 units? Not sure if it’s a tweak or the app is just missing that bit.

Probably an Azyr app problem again. There hasn’t been an errata changing that.

[DaftSkunk]

Hellooo, I've been wondering and trying to find the updated rules for the Artefact / Daemonic Power: Mark of the Conjurer, because +1 to summoning feels like it's useless with the new edition. Did I miss an application or a change somewhere? Couldn't find it in the FAQs^^' 

[AaronWilson]

Hey guys, I played a 1500 point game last night and thought I'd write a battle report, sorry if it's a long post but it seems relevant as I played against Lens of Refraction & Lord  Arcanum (auto-unbind) & Comet. 

I took to the game -

Lord of Change - 380
Trait - Magical Supremacy
Lore of Change - Tzeentchs Firestorm

Gaunt Summoner - 180
Artefact - Wellspring of Arcane Might 
Lore of Change - Bolt of Tzeentch 

Tzaangor Shaman - 180
Lore of Change - Unchecked Mutation

The Blue Scribes - 140
Lore of Change - Unchecked Mutation 

Tzaangors (20) - 360
Acolytes (10) - 80
Acolytes (10) - 80

Umbrall Spell Portal - 60
Geminids - 40

My friend had taken - 

Volturnos 
General 

A Hero that returned 3 thralls per turn, unsure of name 
Artefact - Lens of Refraction

Melee Thralls (30)
Killy Eels (3)
Killy Eels (3) 

Allied Lord Arcanumus
2 x SCE Ballista
Comet 

We rolled for Focal points, the one with a central objective and 4 spread in a diamond like shape across the table. I had 1 less drop then him, so let him drop first. The Lords of Change 42" unbind pushed his Arcanum back. I deployed Acolytes bottom central, Tzaangors upper mid, Acolytes upper right and my Heroes in a campfire behind it. Oppenent did Arcanum and Ballista in top right and everything else central under the lens. I finished dropping first, after measuring things out I worked out I could get my opponents Arcanum & Ballista via portal shenanigans and be out of unbind range, so I took first turn. 

Turn one I kicked off with LoC CA, Blue Scribes put up Boon of Tzeentch, Shaman put up portal and then the fun started. LoC killed the incantor, and his Firestorm rolled well doing 5 MW to the ballista. The Gaunt put a Inferno Flames onto the thrall blob, killing 9 but only 7 due to lens, then finished off the ballista with the geminids. I moved up defensively, leaving Acolytes on 2 objectives and moving my 20 Tzaangors up that would leave my opponent 9" charge with eels & 10 with Vulturnos, I ended the turn on 6 fate points.. Turn one my opponent moved his thralls & eels up, the thralls covering the top centre and middle left objective as well as the centre one. Eel brigade came over top and opponent made 1 of 9" charges into my Gors, my gors back killed 2 Eels and left 1 Eel on 4.  He killed 6, using a 1 on DD for Battleshock I lost 1 more. He scored 4 this turn, rolling for initiative I won. 

Turn 2 kicked off with my geminids bouncing back through the portal by my opponent, so I'd be forced to move off my portal. My Shaman tried to dispel them so I could put them out again but failed, hero phase LoC used his CA, Blue Scribes cast Boon, Gaunt Summoner kicked off with a Bolt into the Eel tying my Zaangors up, rolling a 1 to wound. He then cast Inferno Flames, killing 5 more Thralls (lens stopping 3). My Shaman used his potion and tried Boon of Mutation onto the eel, hoping to get a 3 for wounds but rolled 2 wounds. LoC then cast Gateway onto the eels that failed the charge, doing 7 MW and Firestorm fluffed with no 6s. That did end my hero phase on 12 fate points though, annoyingly I left a Eel on 1 wound my gors. My Acolytes stayed on the objectives and my heroes moved up, LoC went central & Gaunt, Shaman and Scribes went to the right but cautiously forward, end of my movement phase I summoned a Herald of Tzeentch. My turn 2 shooting between Acolytes, LoC & Herald I killed the Eel in combat with my gors, finished the last eeel that failed his charge and put 2 wounds on Vulturnos. I then used a 6,5 out of my DD to charge my gors into Vultrunos, I left him on 2 wounds. My acolytes scored me 2 more points, making it 4-4. Opponents turn 2 he conga lined his thralls up, Ballista tried to get a cheeky shot into my Shaman who was out of look out sir but missed. Thralls charged my gors (I think I had 6? left now). Vultrunos killed every Gor down to the last, I left a greatblade and used a 4 from my DD to make it hit ,rolled the wound and he failed his 4 + taking his last 2 wounds. Thralls then killed my last Gor and opponent scored 4 more, so 8-4.  My opponent won this roll off and elected to take first & I bounced the geminids back through my portal. 

He moved back with his inured thralls as he charged into me, he would lose his 2 back objectives and I had lots of units (Shaman, Scribes, LoC) that could fly back onto them. He kept returning thralls each turn (also bar turn one he used CP to pass BS tests) so there was 22 back now. He ended his turn 3 scoring 4 more, so it was 12-4. My turn 3, my Herald dispelled my portal. LoC used CA, Scribes put up Boon, Shaman cast Portal for my Summoner and then I put a horredous amount of MW into the 22 thralls via LoC Gateway & Firestorm, & GS Inferno Flamers & Bolt. Even through lens I killed 15 models, ending my hero phase on 6 fate points. Movement I advanced my Shaman who rolled well enough to grab the back middle objective, shooting reduced the Thralls to 3 models and I ended scoring 4 points (3 for the top and bottom centre, 1 for my middle right) making it 12-8. We rolled for the initiative and I got this double turn, my opponent shook my hand at this point as it was very odds on he would be tabled. 

It was a really tight game, lots of measuring and lots of positioning. My ability to manipulate  casting dice was crazy good (+1 to cast, can either re-roll both dice or just 1s) it meant I never failed a spell. It was my first time using a LoC and jeez, I think he's still worth the points. The Gateway did minimum 5 MW each time it cast, Firestorm was hit and miss but it has potential. His CA is amazing and 42" unbind paired with if you roll a 9 on the unbind to steal a spell forces your opponents wizards on the backfoot. First time using the spell portals and they're fantastic, it makes your turn one incredible and the ability to redeploy it due to the low dispel value needed is good. I was very scared about the lens but I was able to pick at units that had broken away from the bubble and then finally crush the unit close to it. 

Sorry for the long write up, thought folks might be interested

 

 

 

[Boss Salvage]

Thanks for the report! So takeaway is Lens isn't the death of Tzeentch? Work the edges of the army then smash the lens with overwhelming force / up close and personal?

10 hours ago, DaftSkunk said:

Hellooo, I've been wondering and trying to find the updated rules for the Artefact / Daemonic Power: Mark of the Conjurer, because +1 to summoning feels like it's useless with the new edition. Did I miss an application or a change somewhere? Couldn't find it in the FAQs^^' 

It needs to be addressed in the next FAQ. I messaged GW about it, recommend you do as well >> aosfaq@gwplc.com

Edited July 11, 2018 by Boss Salvage

[DaftSkunk]

Ah I couldn't find the FAQ-email. Thanks, will do 

[Drib]

21 hours ago, Myzyrael said:

You are right, missed that piece that allows to override core rules. Seems like my summoning got a lot easier now ? thanks for clarifying that for me

Even considering Warscroll > Core Rules, the term "use" refers to paying the points, as having the points (what is the requirement to summon) is not using them. 

Additionaly the scentence with the requirment to have Fate Points to summon would be redundant. On top of that the errata that changed the 5 Fate Point requirement to 10 would have been plain useless but in the same manner make all GHB18 wrong worded while at the same time changing not a thing.

All in all it's plain to see, that you need 10 "true" Fate Points to be able to summon.

[AaronWilson]

Thinking about it more, I see where Josh is coming from though. I think the Fate Point 10 statement is there because our lowest cost summon is 10 and GW just made a booboo stating it was 5. The Blue/Brimstone Horror rules state that you can them instead of Fate points, which would override the core rules of needing 10 fate points, using them instead.

1 hour ago, Boss Salvage said:

Thanks for the report! So takeaway is Lens isn't the death of Tzeentch? Work the edges of the army then smash the lens with overwhelming force / up close and personal?

It needs to be addressed in the next FAQ. I messaged GW about it, recommend you do as well >> aosfaq@gwplc.com

I don't think it's the death, it 100% makes matchups harder but I think if you can pick at units outside the bubble use things like Gateway, Bolt, Inferno Flames, Firestorm that do enough wounds to to somewhat mitigate the D3- it's not the end of Tzeentch

[Boss Salvage]

I talked about the Lens a bunch last night with local Khorne dude, who recognizes it's a stopgap that he's forced to take by other game imbalances. FWIW my only problem with it - and this is as a Tzeentch player who gets pretty messed up by it - is that it doesn't block mortal damage "to a minimum of 1". Other games have similar damage reduction effects - like armor in Malifaux - and I actually think AOS does as well (stone skeleton? other stuff?) that allow 1 damage through at worst, letting the other player feel like they're still doing something with their points investment. To block *all* damage is IMO another negative play experience in a game with too many of them already.

Also why doesn't the Lens just give every unit within 6" a X+ save against mortal wounds? Make it 6+ if you want it to be balanced with other artefacts, or 5+ if you want it to be overly strong. A save against mortal wounds is very common in AOS, especially when it comes to artefacts. Why create yet another special rule, when better game design finds an interesting and easier balanced way to use an established one? Why, GeeDub? Why?

EDIT: All that said, I'm happy that there are tournaments coming up that ban the realm artefacts. Good call, TOs.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Boss Salvage

[TheOtherJosh]

20 minutes ago, Boss Salvage said:

All that said, I'm happy that there are tournaments coming up that ban the realm artefacts. Good call, TOs.

So, one advantage of Realm Artefacts is that there are options now for Grand Alliance armies. 

Theyre not just stuck with the 6 available Artefacts for their GA.

Those Artefacts also allow armies that didn’t get the “SCE and Nighthaunt Treatment” or the AoS v2 treatment to fight back with options.

There are really good ones. While A tournament is the TO’s domain where they can do anything they want.

Without them, we might not have seen Sweden take 2nd in 6 Nations.

Taking away complexity because stuff has issues at this moment ... kinda makes me sad.

[kenshin620]

6 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Taking away complexity because stuff has issues at this moment ... kinda makes me sad.

I mean to be fair aren't there tournaments that also ban Free Cities? (and technically by extension Fist if the Everchosen, Wraith Fleet, and Stoneklaw Gutsompas, but those are really non issues and I think destruction needs all the help it can get!) But technically the Firestorm allegiances are still Matched play Legal. It's just an extra layer of rules that a tournament wants to have in place.

 

Heck I wouldn't be surprised if a tournament went "yea we're hard capping Engine of the Gods to one per army".

[Boss Salvage]

57 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Taking away complexity because stuff has issues at this moment ... kinda makes me sad.

I'm actually a huge proponent of variety, however I've been in the hobby for a long time and know GW gamers will tend towards the few good items at the exclusion of others, weirdly resulting in less variety. This is largely due to GW being particularly bad at internal balance - not all options available to an army are equally good, there are always Obviously Good things that are always taken.

I applaud the blanket ban because while the actual answer is targeted bans at the few Always Taken items (thus opening the field to hopefully more variety, not just the assumption of it), blanket bans lead to less uproar than targeted ones. I do though expect we'll head back to hard caps for competitive AOS, if the official FAQs can't keep up. One should recall that WHFB was virtually never played without restrictions, especially 8E. There's no reason to think AOS doesn't need the same treatment, with the exception that GW appears to want to be involved in the life of the game more than previously.

EDIT: Your comments about helping out non-battletome armies is valid. My other army is Gutbusters and I'm interested to see what the realms have for them (I hear Blade of Judgment is the answer?)
EDIT2: I finally found a list of the realm artefacts, and I'm blown away by how good the Ulgu stuff is. Are people really kneejerking as hard as we think and taking Lens all the time? Because there's bonkers af stuff in Ulgu O_O

Edited July 11, 2018 by Boss Salvage

[Origin]

Hey Guys,

Looking for a little feed back on this list. I have only just started with Tzeentch and any advice would be appreciated. 

Tzaangor coven seems like a really good buy at 110 points, Balewind, Cogs and Portal feel like a must but I could have a whole other caster for that price. And maybe steal the endless spells from my opponent with Glean Magic. 

And on a side note, the Fatemaster. Coming from outside Tzeentch he seems crazy good for 120 points, yet he does not seem to feature in many lists and indeed i cannot seem to find space for him. Mainly because he doesn't cast, has anyone found a space for him?

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy 
- Artefact: Alchemical Chain 
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner (180)
- Artefact: Souldraught 
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
30 x Tzaangors (480)
- 6x Pair of Savage Blade
- 12x Savage Greatblade
- 12x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220)

Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (110)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Umbral Spellportal (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128
 

[TheOtherJosh]

4 minutes ago, Origin said:

And on a side note, the Fatemaster. Coming from outside Tzeentch he seems crazy good for 120 points, yet he does not seem to feature in many lists and indeed i cannot seem to find space for him. 

The Fatemaster happens to be one of two units in a Tzeentch Arcanites Army that has Command abilities (the other being Kairos).

ps The finecast model appears to be female.

[Plokoone]

55 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

ps The finecast model appears to be female.

Please do not bully the Fatemaster. He is very self-conscious.

[TheOtherJosh]

12 minutes ago, Plokoone said:

Please do not bully the Fatemaster. He is very self-conscious.

We do need more female models in the Tzeentch line... (not that one can tell male v.s. female for Tzaangor ...)

I've seriously considered converting up a bunch of the Witch elves as Kairic Acolytes .... either with two blades, or blade and shield. (That and they're awesome models.) Alternately I've considered doing a minor conversion of adding the additional sword to the Sorcereress and running her as a Chaos Sorcerer Lord.

[Plokoone]

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

We do need more female models in the Tzeentch line... (not that one can tell male v.s. female for Tzaangor ...)

I've seriously considered converting up a bunch of the Witch elves as Kairic Acolytes .... either with two blades, or blade and shield. (That and they're awesome models.) Alternately I've considered doing a minor conversion of adding the additional sword to the Sorcereress and running her as a Chaos Sorcerer Lord.

I've thought about making a female Sorcerer too but I think I've decided to use a Dark Angels head on the stock model instead. The Fantasy MMO had some neat designs though.

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Plokoone
higher resolution images

[AaronWilson]

So I played a 1k point game last night against my friend which resulted in a bit of the feel bads. I took 

Gaunt Summoner
Magister
20 Tzaangors
10 Pink Horros
10 Acolytes

Geminids 

He took

Knight of Shrouds
Lantern hero that can return d6 models via a spell

40 Chainrasp
6 Spirit hosts
8 Banshee guys with scythes
4 Reapers 

We rolled for Places of Arcane power, he had 1 more drop then me  so I got to decide first, I put pink bottom left, GS just behind them, Tzaangors centre middle, acolytes upper right with Masgister. Opponent dropped spirit hosts uppet left, rasps centre with lantern dude & knight, scythes dude very top right and the reapers went in the underworld.I gave him turn one as his army was quite slow and my deployment mitigated any good turn one pop ups via the underworld.

Turn one he cast mystic shield on rasps, he popped shrouds CA (he was aware how fast I could propel my Zaangors with CA and I think he was expecting me to launch them into him). Everything ran, bar the scythe guys in the top right forwards. My turn one I started with Gaunt Summoner using Arcane Sacrifice on Horrors. He then cast a bolt into the hosts using 4,4 on my DD which killed a host. Magister cast glimpse, which got me a 6. I then used a 6&4 to cast Inferno flames, oppenent decided he had to try and stop it and failed, i think I killed 13 rasps. Horrors put up geminids, capping spirit hosts & rasps. Did 1 MW to hosts because of death saves but 5 more rasps. Movement I just waddled my Tzaangor up in the middle, leaving the rasps a 10" charge, acolytes move up on the right and horrors advanced bottom left onto the bottom objective. Shooting I killed 1 scythe guy with acolytes, magister missed, battleshock I think killed 7-8 more rasps. Ending battle round 1 on 5 fate points & 1 CP. I won the roll off, giving him first turn, as I wasn't threatened by any of his units and it would allow me to move the geminids.

The geminids bounced over Rasps & Hosts again, dropping the hosts down to 4 models & killing 3 more rasps. Lantern guy failed his spell  and then everything waddled up. The reapers came up within 9" of my Gaunt Summoner. Charge wise the spirit hosts got into my horrors & rasps rolled a 6,6 and landed in my Gors, I think I lost 3 gors (because of the double fight because of the roll of 10 or more from rasps), I left 5 rasps alive. The Spirit Hosts completely failed there roll.  The reapers & banshee guys failed there charges needing 8&9" respectively. My turn 2 I cast bolt of change into the top right banshees, killing 1 and spawning a spawn. Horrors did arcane bolt into hosts, GS used Arcane Sacrifice on Gors, inferno flamed the rasps down to 2 and failed his Bolt of Tzeentch so leaving me on 8 points. Acolytes & Magister moved up top right, gors & horrors were in combat and GS moved centrally to the right to get away from reapers and make a good spawn point. End of movement I used 8 FP & 2 Blue horrors points to make 10 Blue Horrors. Shooting I killed 3 banshees with Acolytes & Magister, Horrors killed the 3rd spirit host. Combat I killed the rasps, failed a 4" charge twice with my acolytes, gors killed rasps and I ended on 3 CPs because horrors still held the bottom left objective. 

My opponent said he's happy to call it there, packed up quickly and really wasn't happy with how the game went. I felt super bad, I think I'll start leaving the Gaunt Summoner at home for more of the "casual" games I play locally. 

[Korvak]

Hey all, new to Tzeentch here. Got an upcoming local 1250 point tournament, and am contemplating picking up the Battleforce box to start a Tzeentch army.
Looking for feedback on this list, do people think it would perform well in matched play?

 

Alter-kin Coven - 1250 points - Realm: Hysh

Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch
General
Trait: Magical Supremacy
Spell: Bolt of Tzeentch
Artefact: Souldraught

Tzaangor Shaman
Spell: Shield of Fate
Artefact: Lens of Refraction

Kairic Acolytes x20

Tzaangors x10

Tzaangor Skyfires x6

Alter-kin Coven Battalion

1250 points exactly.

[AaronWilson]

It feels very light on the ground at 1250 mainly due to the 6 Skyfires. I'm off the personal view Tzaangors are very much a waste at a unit of 10, i wouldn't take them at all at 10. Pesonally at 1250 I'd drop the Skyfires, and go for a unit of 20 Tzaangors & add the Gaunt Summoner which gets you to 1040. At that point you could add another 10 gors to make them 30, leaving you 90 points. You could go for a Balewind, or the Geminids and save the 50 for a command point, or go for the spell portal (which is very very good) and add something like the Soulbind shackles for the last 20. 

[The Cyclop Owl]

1 hour ago, Korvak said:

Hey all, new to Tzeentch here. Got an upcoming local 1250 point tournament, and am contemplating picking up the Battleforce box to start a Tzeentch army.
Looking for feedback on this list, do people think it would perform well in matched play?

 

Alter-kin Coven - 1250 points - Realm: Hysh

Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch
General
Trait: Magical Supremacy
Spell: Bolt of Tzeentch
Artefact: Souldraught

Tzaangor Shaman
Spell: Shield of Fate
Artefact: Lens of Refraction

Kairic Acolytes x20

Tzaangors x10

Tzaangor Skyfires x6

Alter-kin Coven Battalion

1250 points exactly.

The awesome thing about that box is that if you magnetise your Skyfires/enlightened, the amount of combinations and battalions possible in there is huge. At this point, literally nothing is bad in that box.

 

As for the list, Tzaangors tend to underperform when you only play 10, as they get bonus attacks the bigger the unit becomes. 

I played a 1k point version of that list for a while, I was too new to have success with it but I remember Alter-Kin being very underwhelming.

[Curzex]

Hey guys, if i have the curseling and i dispell with sucess a enemy endless spell, can i cast the endless spell without pay for ir?