AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Malakithe]

With points changes to Pinks what kind of lists can abuse them now? MultiHost? Changehost?

[AlexanderGonzo]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

With points changes to Pinks what kind of lists can abuse them now? MultiHost? Changehost?

Changehost check out the HonestWargamers GHB 2019 Tzeench Reaction & these two list rundowns https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/tzeentch-change-hosts-the-endless-spell-mini-game/     https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/tzeentch-gw-did-a-another-oopsie-changehost/

[Cauthon]

Hey Caspeur (the frenchy ghost? Jk) thanks for the feed back. 

 

I would not go arcane sacrifice. I’d go for the extra spell on my general. So I wouldn’t need something to babysit the pinks. Just need to cast my endless spell on them turn 1 to hit all 3 units with some d6 mortal wound action for aggressive summoning of blues. 

 

The other casters you mention all have their uses but I’ve found them to be pretty situational. I’ve had limited use out of the curseling as everybody’s spells nowadays can only be cast by members of their own faction and he has no effect on endless spells. I have not tried the tanky version you mentioned, my previous go to tank was just ogroid with the trecherous bond on some horrors. 

Gaunt summoner on balewind has been a staple in all my lists but recently I havnt seen any units bigger than 10 strong (super small meta) He is still handy because of his extra spell cast but 3 shamans gets me into my Cabal without having to take a magister.  I’m not totally  against the magister but he tends to just sit in the back casting glimpse the future all game. Now that it’s only a 20 point difference between shaman and magister, shaman is just SO good. I really enjoy the shamans flask, powerful casting tool. Mobility. Mobility mobility. (For the aggressive summoning of horrors).

When I started playing tzeentch I was in love with the 30 block of tzaangors (especially because of the +3 attacks that is now just +1) but I was having logistical problems with them on the board. Chiefly that if they got charged , the unit was to big to get a ton of pile in action and not killy enough to get themselves freed up. The shield bro (honorary command member) is clutch, the run and charge was clutch, but the cost to damage output usually left me wanting, especially because you can’t get a ton of models in the fight  at a time.

tzaangors are 9 points per wound, enlightened are 11. The deciding factor for me though is I’m using pinks to fill my battline and so don’t “need” tzaangors.  

 

Most previously all my lists have had a unit of tzaangors, 10 man chaos warriors and a unit of pinks.  I’m trying to step it up as my usual opponent plays Slaanesh and just wow.. 

Arcane sacrifice is cool for the range booster but it didn’t get me summoning horrors fast enough (top of turn 1) to run proper interference. 

 

People may only “fall” for charging a screen in front of enlightened once but if my enlightened are on an objective and I bubble wrap them in blues and brims, what are you going to do? Besides shoot the bajeezus out of them lol. 

 

I havnt run run it yet but if you line up 3 units of pinks and run them over with that wildfire Taurus spell, that’s 3d6x2 blue points, hopefully you’re summoning two units of blues turn one. 

With the wind theif charm on a shaman, he can turbo 28 inches away to summon blues wherever you need speed bumps. When they get bumped. That’s units of brims you get to bubble wrap our stuff with. Hopefully on objectives. 

 

Hopefully you can score enough points early, and muck up the board well enough to keep your opponent frustrated for 2-3 turns. You have the wildfire Taurus to turn on the enemy when you need to, giving them asl which depending on situation could “save” your enlightened on foot depending on wether you want the buff or survivability of attacking first. 9enlightened on disc was overkill for me which was sad, they hammered the pants off one thing a turn and had awesome threat range but I think 6 is the magic number. Will have one shaman babysit them for their better attack profile and to be on hand for a fold reality  

 

I do enjoy chaos warriors, I’m working on converting a big unit of 20 and then will very much enjoy doing the ferry boat to get them up to midfield objectives after I convert one). In this list though I’d be just straight up relying on summoning, instead of having tough wounds, I have volume of “free” wounds that I don’t care about when they get squashed that I get to deploy aggressively. 

 

Not trying to guarantee it will work, have no idea. I just don’t think swapping out my characters or enlightened on foot for tzaangors makes the list any better at what it’s trying to do.

 

Still hoping for more feedback before I buy two more boxes of pinks and 4 boxes of blues (fml).

 

If I were to drop a shaman and the cabal, what would be best to add in to either make the list more balanced or better at what it’s trying to do? I REALLY enjoy getting my destiny dice back though. 

 

Thanks guys!!

[Caspeur]

22 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

...

Now that you've explained what you're trying to do, I could see this work. Still, in practise I wonder how you'll manage. You'll probably get first turn, what happens then? And what will happen if you get the early double turn against you? Just marching your Pinks forward, trying to get them killed, seems lackluster to me, especially since against most armies, you'll be lacking board control in such a situation. Making it hard to push your Blues onto objectives. What I like about Enlightened on discs and the buffed Gaunt Summoner, is the first turn punishment, which is quite unique for armies to have.

Though I get that you want the Cabal, I still think the Gaunt summoner is an auto pick. Even on a unit of 10, that's 5 mortal wounds on average. If it really won't be of use too often, he uses Bolt of Tzeentch. I love running endless spells through Pinks, but for some reason the Arcane Sacrifice always seems like a demoralizing thing to the opponent. Kill one pink and get back 5 with a snap of your fingers? "TZEENTCH IS BROKEN" Muwhahaha

[Cauthon]

Well you don’t march the pinks anywhere, or the blues really. 

I don’t want my enemy to kill the pinks  I do it myself. Hit each unit with d6 mortal wounds on my first turn because that’s what the wildfire taurus does, d6 wounds on a unit of 10, d3 mw on a unit with less than 10. So turn one they all take d6 damage, next turn they take d3 unless you battleshock your way back up to 10+ models in each unit  

Kind of a perfect spell for horror farming really because who cares about pinks striking last? Is handy when you get offensive with it though  

Have to jump foreword with the shammys to summon the blues as far up the field as you can. Really should be 9” away from enemy’s deployment for maximum effect. 

 

Once the enemy takes ground, you don’t get it back (if we just talking about just summoning schenanigans) have to fence them in or just super bubble wrap the objectives. I expect the blues to die where they get summoned. If they can walk up the board next turn cool but I doubt it unless I get a double. 

 

It is a good point about averaging 5 MW for gaunt summoner is still pretty dang good. I guess I shouldn’t get hung up on lack of ideal targets when he does just fine on small units. 220 points after the Balewind is not cheap though. 

 

So I would enjoy going first most games. Brutalize my pinks, jump up and summon. Hope there isn’t a doubleturn so I can build more blue fence. 

 

The enlightened on foot “push” to objectives and then hopefully there is a screen to get behind or some kind of bubble wrap situation, wouldn’t move blues up, hoping to summon them where I need them.  Big block of 6 would be my reserves, two small units would head for objectives. 

 

For the record. I enjoy giving bolt of tzeentch to two different shamans. One uses his potion one turn to double cast it at a high probability and then next turn the other shaman does so. 4 solid attempts at bolt of tzeentch in two turns and one every turn afterwords seems a very effective way to put out some mortal wounds.  

 

Havnt explored which spells are handy for pinks, It would be cool if they could endless spell themselves to death but if I needed them to it would be because there is no hero nearby to do it for them. Idk. Will have to practice. 

[Caspeur]

Sounds promising. Curious to see how far it'll get you after a few games! 

[Malakithe]

Where are the rules for arcane sacrifice? I cant find them anywhere

[Cauthon]

It’s a command trait. Your general can choose that as his warlord trait basically. 

[Malakithe]

24 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

It’s a command trait. Your general can choose that as his warlord trait basically. 

Found it. Its in the arcanites section. I dont look there usually lol

[Landohammer]

So I just got my copy of GHB 2019, but  I am not seeing Gaunt Summoner with Chaos Familiars in either Tzeentch or Everchosen section.  Additionally there is a sentence in the pitched battle profiles booklet that says "Only units that are included in this book, or that have a later publication date, can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent"

So does that mean the Chaos Familiar version of the model is no longer fieldable in matched play?

 

[Caspeur]

15 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

So I just got my copy of GHB 2019, but  I am not seeing Gaunt Summoner with Chaos Familiars in either Tzeentch or Everchosen section.  Additionally there is a sentence in the pitched battle profiles booklet that says "Only units that are included in this book, or that have a later publication date, can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent"

So does that mean the Chaos Familiar version of the model is no longer fieldable in matched play?

 

Apparently so... it sucks but it doesn't really matter to me. Still an incredible hero with the most powerful anti-horde ability in the game. Gotta love that 20 point decrease on him 😄

[Reezark_SP]

41 minutes ago, Caspeur said:

Apparently so... it sucks but it doesn't really matter to me. Still an incredible hero with the most powerful anti-horde ability in the game. Gotta love that 20 point decrease on him 😄

The app just updated and the Summoner with Familiars is still there for 180 points and the one without familiars is a separate choice for 160. 

[Caspeur]

2 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

The app just updated and the Summoner with Familiars is still there for 180 points and the one without familiars is a separate choice for 160. 

Well, noone said that he doesn't exist anymore. You're just gonna need your opponent's consent now if you're playing pitched battles. 

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

"Only units that are included in this book, or that have a later publication date, can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent"

 

[Landohammer]

Yea I guess we still have the regular version no matter what which is cool. But I think the whole "special permission" clause rules out bringing the familiars in a competitive matched play environment.

This ends up being a pretty crucial change since this removes the inherent +1 to cast. So outside of the LOC or Arcane Sacrifice buffs, you are now relying on a natural dice roll to get infernal flames off. 

[Caspeur]

On 6/20/2019 at 11:01 PM, Cauthon said:

I’m glad changhost is back to working out for you guys again. 

 

What do you guys think of a3 shammy Cabal with horror farm backed by enlightened? 

 

Im pretty pumped enlightened on foot didn’t go up and amazed at how much of our stuff got cheaper!

MuchoEnlightened%20.pdf 906.93 kB · 30 downloads

When are you planning on playing this list?

Edited June 24, 2019 by Caspeur

[Rentar]

In order to force a change ASAP, this PSA goes out to all Tzeentch Cultists. You can verify it on the official App, which is the most updated rules reference. The Gaunt Summoner on Disc was updated alongside the Gaunt Summoner with Familiars prior to the June update (in Feb). Also note that a Feb update means that it was update after the Errata (July 2018) and thus it is the most updated form of the rules. 

While the 'Book of Profane Secrets' ability of the Gaunt Summoner and Gaunt Summoner on Disc were updated to be limited to once/battle and only summoning 10 of any basic Daemon (Bloodletters/Plaguebearers/Daemonettes/Pink Horrors) from a REALMGATE, the Gaunt Summoner with Chaos Familiars was not.

While, as a person who owns this model, I am excited to summon Archaon/Bloodthirsters/Keepers of Secrets/Great Unclean Ones/Lords of Change ONCE PER TURN onto the battlefield with a 180 point model, I would venture a guess that this is not how it was intended to function.

While this wasn't so important when Terrain rules/warscrolls were optional, the 2019 update specifies that Realmgate Warscrolls are to be used. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Rentar

[Caspeur]

14 minutes ago, Rentar said:

In order to force a change ASAP, this PSA goes out to all Tzeentch Cultists. You can verify it on the official App, which is the most updated rules reference. The Gaunt Summoner on Disc was updated alongside the Gaunt Summoner with Familiars prior to the June update (in Feb). Also note that a Feb update means that it was update after the Errata (July 2018) and thus it is the most updated form of the rules. 

While the 'Book of Profane Secrets' ability of the Gaunt Summoner and Gaunt Summoner on Disc were updated to be limited to once/battle and only summoning 10 of any basic Daemon (Bloodletters/Plaguebearers/Daemonettes/Pink Horrors) from a REALMGATE, the Gaunt Summoner with Chaos Familiars was not.

While, as a person who owns this model, I am excited to summon Archaon/Bloodthirsters/Keepers of Secrets/Great Unclean Ones/Lords of Change ONCE PER TURN onto the battlefield with a 180 point model, I would venture a guess that this is not how it was intended to function.

While this wasn't so important when Terrain rules/warscrolls were optional, the 2019 update specifies that Realmgate Warscrolls are to be used. 

What's your point, bro? 😅😅

[Rentar]

7 minutes ago, Caspeur said:

What's your point, bro? 😅😅

That, RAW, a 180 point model can summon anything with the CHAOS and DAEMON keywords from a REALMGATE, which as of this year's GHB is whenever the terrain piece is on the table. They can do this ONCE PER TURN. Not once per battle. 

The above list includes: Archaon, all Greater Daemons, a max size unit of Tzaangor Skyfires/Enlightened, a max size unit of Beasts of Nurgle, any Verminlord... Etc.

While I don't doubt that any TO with a brain would dispute this, the GW official means to determine the outcome of a rules dispute is:

1. Read the Rule (Addressed above) 

2. Go Upstream (irrelevant) 

3. Check Errata (Addressed above. The app is more recently updated than Errata)

4. Apply rules as written (big problem here) 

5. Roll die to settle if still the rule is still unclear (or ask the TO)

Thing is, since at step 4 we find a solution... 

The TO need not step in (technically). Ergo, RAW, this model is the pretty much the most powerful model on any table with a REALMGATE. 

[Caspeur]

6 minutes ago, Rentar said:

That, RAW, a 180 point model can summon anything with the CHAOS and DAEMON keywords from a REALMGATE, which as of this year's GHB is whenever the terrain piece is on the table. They can do this ONCE PER TURN. Not once per battle. 

The above list includes: Archaon, all Greater Daemons, a max size unit of Tzaangor Skyfires/Enlightened, a max size unit of Beasts of Nurgle, any Verminlord... Etc.

While I don't doubt that any TO with a brain would dispute this, the GW official means to determine the outcome of a rules dispute is:

1. Read the Rule (Addressed above) 

2. Go Upstream (irrelevant) 

3. Check Errata (Addressed above. The app is more recently updated than Errata)

4. Apply rules as written (big problem here) 

5. Roll die to settle if still the rule is still unclear (or ask the TO)

Thing is, since at step 4 we find a solution... 

The TO need not step in (technically). Ergo, RAW, this model is the pretty much the most powerful model on any table with a REALMGATE. 

So, your point is, that a unit which is not officially legal in pitched battles anymore, is extremely strong now? You probably won't even be allowed to bring him to tournaments as he isn't included in the 2019 pitched booklet. I'm sure this rule was meant to be broken for the goofier battles in open/narrative

Edited June 24, 2019 by Caspeur

[Rentar]

Just now, Caspeur said:

So, your point is, that a unit which is not officially legal in pitched battles anymore, is extremely strong now? You probably won't even be allowed to bring him to tournaments as he isn't included in the 2019 pitched booklet. I'm sure this rule was meant to be broken for the goofier battles in open/narrative

Go to the app, toggle the "Matched Play Only" filter, and look for the GS w/ CF. It's still there. Therefore isn't it legal?

[Caspeur]

6 minutes ago, Rentar said:

Go to the app, toggle the "Matched Play Only" filter, and look for the GS w/ CF. It's still there. Therefore isn't it legal?

I didn't say he doesn't exist anymore, I said he isn't officially legal anymore.

14 hours ago, Landohammer said:

"Only units that are included in this book, or that have a later publication date, can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent"

You need your opponent's consent to be able to play him.

So you're basically asking to a TO and your opponent "Hey guys, can I play this broken version of an already powerful unit because I want to be that guy?" 

If the others have somewhat of a brain, they'll say "Just play him without the familiars" and you're back at the start 😜

Edited June 24, 2019 by Caspeur

[Quarmiel]

56 minutes ago, Rentar said:

The TO need not step in (technically). Ergo, RAW, this model is the pretty much the most powerful model on any table with a REALMGATE. 

I wasn't even aware this ability hasn't been changed  for GS with familiars.

Sure, summoning 10 pinks is nice, but do you really use it every game you play? And what do you do if no realmgate is available during a tournament?

In my opinion Book of Profane Secrets seems a bit OP and I simply don't use it, but honestly I feel like I'll change my mind - especially after dealing lately (poorly) with some OP and unfun lists (eg. Plague Monks x 180).

EDIT:

Nota bene - GS with Familiars is still there in updated Warscroll Builder (Pitched Battle). What now?

Edited June 24, 2019 by Quarmiel

[Landohammer]

@Rentar

I see your point but I don't think the Warscroll Builder/Azyr counts as a publication. The GS w/ Familiar would have to be released with points in a new codex or subsequent FAQ to be eligible for matched play.

However you do have a point regarding the Realmgate terrain piece now being one of the primary terrain options for the terrain rules. This is a pretty significant buff for the regular GS though it would feel a little gamey bringing a realmgate to a pickup game. And in a tournament I already have to carry around quit a bit of models for summoning, so I doubt I will add 10 more for the odd chance I find myself on a table with one.

[Luke1705]

Where are people seeing a 160 point gaunt summoner?  As far as I can see, he's still 180

[Caspeur]

2 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Where are people seeing a 160 point gaunt summoner?  As far as I can see, he's still 180

The Warhammer-community warscroll builder hasn't had an update yet. He is 160 in GH19 and in the AoS app "Azyr" though.