AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Paniere]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

Noooooooo......healing? Healing what? How do you heal from a fireball?

ehehe GW foresaw your objection, changing the name of the spell into "choking tendrils"

[Gwendar]

5 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

You didn't understand my point. If you lose 2 horrors, horrors are no longer a wizard. For acolytes stopping being wizard they must lose 12 acolytes

I see your point in that regard, but from an objective point of view, I see Horrors as superior. And in the end, that's what games are won on. I'd rather have more heroes blasting out spells than Acolytes with their complementary shooting. Not to say Acolytes shooting don't have a place, especially in the right Host\Battalion.

[Malakithe]

No doubt that Horrors at 200pts for 50 wounds became the best tarpit and objective holders in the game. And they can mass shoot as a bonus. If they can cast some spells that even better.

Relaying on them as wizards probably isnt a good idea though.

[Paniere]

Another note, is it just me or the wording of Horrors' signature spell is unnecessary ambiguous?  Channeled pink fire: 6+ to cast: "pick 1 friendly horror unit wholly within 6 of the caster and visible to them" ...Does this mean that you must keep all models into a bubble of 6" diameter to be elegible to cast it? This micro range also makes it very hard to cast it on another nearby horror unit. also. how can a unit not being able to see itself? This makes me thing that this spell is intended to be cast on OTHER horror units, making it possible only if you tag em in 2 very close bubbles, physically impossible as numbers wil ltend to grow...I'm baffled by this wording

 

[Pestilens]

17 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

True, but with that spell and the ability for being at 20+ models (which it almost always will be with the splitting) you're getting them down to 3\4\-\1 which isn't terrible for a unit that also has a 6+ FNP. That's a pretty great BL unit in my opinion and I still see 2x20 or 3x20 being a staple.

That said, yeah, it's obvious the casting role has shifted more towards heroes, which I'm fine with. Time will tell what works well. The Changehost list requiring 8 units is a high tax and 3x20 + the LoC and the Battalion is already high and leaves little room for anything.

There is also an artifact that give all tzeench deamon +1 to wound in a 9 bubble... So the soothing phase will become an interesting alternative IMHO. 

[Malakithe]

3 minutes ago, Paniere said:

Another note, is it just me or the wording of Horrors' signature spell is unnecessary ambiguous?  Channeled pink fire: 6+ to cast: "pick 1 friendly horror unit wholly within 6 of the caster and visible to them" ...Does this mean that you must keep all models into a bubble of 6" diameter to be elegible to cast it? This micro range also makes it very hard to cast it on another nearby horror unit. also. how can a unit not being able to see itself? This makes me thing that this spell is intended to be cast on OTHER horror units, making it possible only if you tag em in 2 very close bubbles, physically impossible as numbers wil ltend to grow...I'm baffled by this wording

 

A unit is always within range of itself. 

[Gwendar]

9 minutes ago, Paniere said:

Another note, is it just me or the wording of Horrors' signature spell is unnecessary ambiguous?  Channeled pink fire: 6+ to cast: "pick 1 friendly horror unit wholly within 6 of the caster and visible to them" ...Does this mean that you must keep all models into a bubble of 6" diameter to be elegible to cast it? This micro range also makes it very hard to cast it on another nearby horror unit. also. how can a unit not being able to see itself? This makes me thing that this spell is intended to be cast on OTHER horror units, making it possible only if you tag em in 2 very close bubbles, physically impossible as numbers wil ltend to grow...I'm baffled by this wording

 

It just means it won't be able to conga line if you want to cast that spell on yourself.. same kind of deal OBR have with Mortek Guard if they want their 6+ FNP from the leader in the unit. That said, the caster is the whole unit, so I guess it's different in this regard? So yeah, potentially incentivising you to keep them in giant blobs instead of lines of Horrors spread out across the board... 

...not that you can't still do that though.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Gwendar

[Paniere]

5 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

It just means it won't be able to conga line if you want to cast that spell on yourself.. same kind of deal OBR have with Mortek Guard if they want their 6+ FNP from the leader in the unit. That said, the caster is the whole unit, so I guess it's different in this regard? So yeah, potentially incentivising you to keep them in giant blobs instead of lines of Horrors spread out across the board... 

...not that you can't still do that though.

I'm stilll baffled.

1) If a horror unit wants to cast it on itself, it must be in an approximately 19 cm bubble. This formation won't be kept forever due to splitting and piling in combat, so the bonus will be useful for 1 turn.

2) If a horror unit wants to cast it on another horror unit, the latter must be adjacent and with 15cm diameter, never happening

 

[Neffelo]

So,

What does everyone think about Flamers? Seems like they are pretty good now in the eternal conflaguration.

 

 

[Poryague]

2 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

So,

What does everyone think about Flamers? Seems like they are pretty good now in the eternal conflaguration.

 

 

I think they look like good shooting unit now. Daemon hero can get an artifact for +1 to wound to friendly daemons wholly withen range so they can wound on 2+ and get rend 1 from coven. The exalted gives the +1 to hit to flamers. So 3 to hit 2 wound rend 1 d3 just for standing next to some other models. Let alone the bonuses for targeting hordes. Shooting seems viable with horrors as tar pits. Makes tzeentch more of a magic shooty army. 

[Gwendar]

24 minutes ago, Paniere said:

I'm stilll baffled.

1) If a horror unit wants to cast it on itself, it must be in an approximately 19 cm bubble. This formation won't be kept forever due to splitting and piling in combat, so the bonus will be useful for 1 turn.

2) If a horror unit wants to cast it on another horror unit, the latter must be adjacent and with 15cm diameter, never happening

 

20 Mortek fit base to base within just within 6" (a little extra room) and they're on 25mm bases. They can get their 6+ FNP, but going beyond that amount of models and it's not really happening. So yeah, I think if you have 20 Pinks on 32mm's you will have difficulty immediately once you start gaining Blues. I feel this wants to work with units of 10 Pinks, but at that point you're a couple casualties away from losing the bonus anyway. I agree that it will likely never happen on another unit, but I don't think that's an issue as they can all cast it themselves so long as they have 9+ Pinks. The range is so short because I think it's intended to realistically only be cast on the unit casting in the first place, but not 100% making it impossible.

I dunno, I feel it needs to be buffed a bit to at least 9" (added benefit of being Tzeentchs number) and you can potentially get that bonus for more than a turn. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Gwendar

[Grimrock]

Out of curiosity, where are people seeing the warscrolls? I watched the GMG review and it was too blurry to make anything out clearly. I've been tearing my hair out waiting for the app to update or the warscroll links to go live on the gw site haha.

[Paniere]

7 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Out of curiosity, where are people seeing the warscrolls? I watched the GMG review and it was too blurry to make anything out clearly. I've been tearing my hair out waiting for the app to update or the warscroll links to go live on the gw site haha.

There are clearer reviews, like "the dark artisan 's" one

[Grimrock]

Yeah it doesn't say the cast comes from the unit leader, the whole unit is the caster. So since a unit is always in range of itself you don't need to clump up or anything. I'm thinking of a unit of 20 pinks in a changehost and the conflagration coven teleporting up with a hero that has aura of mutability. Buff from the spell and from 20 models makes them 60 attacks hitting on 3s. Reroll 1s from a command point means you hit about 46, wounding on 3s means about 31 rend 1 wounds. Then you have 20 pinks in the enemy's face that nets you up to 100 wounds with a 6+/6+. Not too shabby at all. 

If you follow up behind the unit with some flamers to also get the aura of mutability... Yeah you'll be doing some serious damage in a shooting phase. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Grimrock

[mmimzie]

@Gwendar just so you know the lore is each horror splits into two. Pink splitting into 2 Blues each modeled individually as they enough to count as one model though only just. The brims also split into two, but the two brims are modeled together on the same base. 

 

I'm the faction focus they said Pink's still split into two blues, and so I'd assume each blue then split into one brimbase (containing two little flames).

 

As for how they separate them. From what I could see on the war scrolls. The pinks have a 6+ extra save against mortal wounds   and regular wounds ontop of the 6+ save. While brims and blues only get the 6+ save.

 

I think Pink's are great battle line options but if you want spell density in your list acolyte's are better, while Pink's are VERY tanky being 50 wounds at 200 pts that more staying power than clan rats  Becoming more durable -1 to hit. 

 

This all said battleshock is real as each dead model will count against battle shock for the Pinks. So destiny dice rolls of one will be HUGE.

 

I think the book is great. DoT needed very little and all the changes just make the books feel great 

[Sinfullyvannila]

Ugh that’s a massive nerf to pinks. We don’t gain anything from the split and raged combat is ineffective on a tarp it.

Locus is gonna be hard AF to keep all those models in.

We can’t deepstrike our splits anymore, and we lost our best spell lore/endless spell casters.

Never gonna pay points for them. Just gonna run 1 or 2 Gaunts to get my tarpit.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[PONCHOGRANDE]

Tzeentch marked Chaos Marauders might be worth looking into now, as they’re almost guaranteed to activate Reckless Abandon on the charge with Boundless Ferocity. With a Fatemaster in the middle of them for rerolls they could provide a solid first strike at a fairly reasonable price. Saves us from spending Destiny Dice on activating it at the very least.

Enlightened on Disks with a Destiny Dice support might still be the better users of Reckless Abandon even with the point increase though.

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 minutes ago, PONCHOGRANDE said:

Tzeentch marked Chaos Marauders might be worth looking into now, as they’re almost guaranteed to activate Reckless Abandon on the charge with Boundless Ferocity. With a Fatemaster in the middle of them for rerolls they could provide a solid first strike at a fairly reasonable price. Saves us from spending Destiny Dice on activating it at the very least.

Enlightened on Disks with a Destiny Dice support might still be the better users of Reckless Abandon even with the point increase though.

I think Tzaangors are hands down the best in the “Transformy” chamber. They got a lot of resilience with all the conversions you get.

[Brad999]

I still dont understand that you can buy the aether box but get no battleline 

[PONCHOGRANDE]

9 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I think Tzaangors are hands down the best in the “Transformy” chamber. They got a lot of resilience with all the conversions you get.

For sure. I’m a little skeptical of how good The Cult of the Transient Form’s gameplan is, as I’m not entirely convinced that your Tzaangor blobs won’t get focused down before your Acolytes start dropping. However, if you manage to reach critical mass (as in, someone actually commits resources to killing a unit of Acolytes that have received the CA bonus) and buff the Tzaangors up with a few Agendas, you’ve got a spicy stew going. Worth a try at any rate.

[Jackroks981]

10 minutes ago, PONCHOGRANDE said:

For sure. I’m a little skeptical of how good The Cult of the Transient Form’s gameplan is, as I’m not entirely convinced that your Tzaangor blobs won’t get focused down before your Acolytes start dropping. However, if you manage to reach critical mass (as in, someone actually commits resources to killing a unit of Acolytes that have received the CA bonus) and buff the Tzaangors up with a few Agendas, you’ve got a spicy stew going. Worth a try at any rate.

You can only buff up the Tzaangors with one agenda at a time I believe. I think they also lost their max unit discount which is a bit of a hit. I've been playing with Tzaangor blobs backed up by disc boys for two years solid now, they've felt very average as of late and I think they're still very average now with the new tome. Nothing really useful for them battalions wise and the cult has you fishing for 6s which means it very rarely comes up and you have to have your blob of tzaangors always chilling next to a unit of acolytes due to the 9" restriction. Seems to be all about the daemons in this book.

[MitGas]

After having read through lots of it, i think we got a few pretty big nerfs now and I'm not too happy with the update - especially when some BS armies are out there... Pink and Kairic Acolyte sorcery is kinda useless, they could've just made those buffs be part of the unit. As it stands it's just dice rolling to get fate points but that is detrimental to fun, especially for the other player. 

I really need our group to stop playing "kill everything to win" and go for objective play now, as else it'll be hard - in that I see much better chances.

Not sure whether to go for summoning LoCs or buffing Kairic or buffing Flamers. But I guess getting two LoCs quite early is pretty much the best thing to do.

I hate having lost the familiars. They were so cute.

I do like the changes to the Thaumaturge though. While summoning Brimstones was better, I think we got an extra attack, which is nice as this makes it one of the few CC heroes we have.

Guess we gotta aim for (sorry) being an even shooty-er army now...

[Gwendar]

8 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Guess we gotta aim for (sorry) being an even shooty-er army now...

Kinda works out for me as magic and shooting based armies are my favorite.. so I'm really thinking of a Summoners Guild Changehost with Horrors and Flamers 😉

[Frowny]

Yes, they have the potential to get damaged, BUT, if you keep around some brimstones, you can lose those to battleshock. If you take, say, 10 wounds total, The obvious thing to do would be just removing pinks 1 at a time and have a unit of 8 pinks. But then you'd lose d6 more PINKS to battleshock, leaving you on average 8-3.5=4.5 pinks. The better approach would be to lose 4 pinks and 6 blues. Then you can battleshock off d6 brimstones, leaving you with a unit of 6 pinks, 2 blues and a few brimstones. Its not that bad. And also, just remember how incredibly cheap they are as wounds. Very Very cheap. One of the cheapest in the game at 4 pts /wound. So dying in droves is fine. 

The free double TP on changehost still seems amazing. Maybe better than before.

 

 

 

[Neffelo]

7 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Yes, they have the potential to get damaged, BUT, if you keep around some brimstones, you can lose those to battleshock. If you take, say, 10 wounds total, The obvious thing to do would be just removing pinks 1 at a time and have a unit of 8 pinks. But then you'd lose d6 more PINKS to battleshock, leaving you on average 8-3.5=4.5 pinks. The better approach would be to lose 4 pinks and 6 blues. Then you can battleshock off d6 brimstones, leaving you with a unit of 6 pinks, 2 blues and a few brimstones. Its not that bad. And also, just remember how incredibly cheap they are as wounds. Very Very cheap. One of the cheapest in the game at 4 pts /wound. So dying in droves is fine. 

The free double TP on changehost still seems amazing. Maybe better than before.

 

 

 

You have to remove all the pinks before you can start removing Blues and Brimstones.