AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Molath]

Does putting The Blue Scribes on a Balewind Vortex increase the range of Boon of Tzeentch to 24”?

[Sinfullyvannila]

14 minutes ago, Molath said:

Does putting The Blue Scribes on a Balewind Vortex increase the range of Boon of Tzeentch to 24”?

It should 

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:

...And still no word about that specific build that made our glorious time in early AoS: Changehost.

Assuming that battalion still exists. No rumor or preview of any battalions yet

[TalesOfSigmar]

Endless Spell preview - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/03/rules-preview-disciples-of-tzeentch-endless-spellsgw-homepage-post-3/

[Sinfullyvannila]

They look pretty nice except for the Simulacrum 

EDIT: actually it works out to 3mws on average, so it depends on how much it costs.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[AverageBoss]

5 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The rule that makes them a wizard currently gives them a +1 to hit modifier. So unless the warscroll is further changed, you’re trading stronger offensive stat that is passive, for an opportunity to buff a weaker stat. I’m also operating under the assumption that, like other units that are wizards conditional to model number, they will only have access to their warscroll spell.

The subfaction is irrelevant to KA’s abilities. They can only buff other KAs and they don’t get the bonus to Rend for the subfaction; they’re attacks are Sorcerous Bolts, not any of the specific attacks listed.

The spell buffs their rend. You are going from having no rend to the chance at having rend -1, while also generating fate points. That is ONLY a buff.

I also don't know what units you are talking about. I do know that both flavors of Evocator are wizards depending on unit size, and still get to choose and cast lore spells (though from a separate lesser lore).

The spell does not say "other" so they most certainly can buff themselves.

We have only seen 1 single subfaction rule from only 2 different subfactions. Given the track records of these, I can practically guarantee there will be at least one more rule in each of those, and at least 2 other subfactions with a mortal focus.

[Frowny]

2 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

...And still no word about that specific build that made our glorious time in early AoS: Changehost.

I'll bet it becomes a subfaction and the swap becomes a command ability 

[Grimrock]

4 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

The spell buffs their rend. You are going from having no rend to the chance at having rend -1, while also generating fate points. That is ONLY a buff. 

The preview said that their Gestalt Sorcery ability, which used to give them a +1 to hit when near a wizard, was changed to make them a wizard when they have 9 or more models. So the ability to cast a spell that grants rend 1 comes at the cost of an ability that gave +1 to hit automatically with no dice needed. Rend 1 is nice, but it's close to a wash with +1 to hit and you can fail a 6 pretty easily. Plus rend doesn't really matter when you're hitting on 5s. 

I'm hoping the rest of the scroll got a rework or the sub faction for mortals helps them out. A native 4+ to hit is really a bare minimum for the ranged attacks, and I'd like to see the glaives do 2 damage each. Also shields on everyone since the models actually all get shields regardless of what weapon they're using. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

The spell buffs their rend. You are going from having no rend to the chance at having rend -1, while also generating fate points. That is ONLY a buff.

I also don't know what units you are talking about. I do know that both flavors of Evocator are wizards depending on unit size, and still get to choose and cast lore spells (though from a separate lesser lore).

The spell does not say "other" so they most certainly can buff themselves.

We have only seen 1 single subfaction rule from only 2 different subfactions. Given the track records of these, I can practically guarantee there will be at least one more rule in each of those, and at least 2 other subfactions with a mortal focus.

I’m just talking about KA’s.

You’re overvaluing Rend compared to To Hit on a model with 1 damage.

Hit is a better stat the same modifier increment because it affects more dice rolls. Rend affects the least amount of dice rolls because your rolls already went through 2 steps of elimination.

Rend gains value when the damage for an attack is greater than 1 because each attack that gets eliminated from a successful save counts for at least twice as much as one eliminated from a failed hit or wound roll.

This is why I said they are worse in a vacuum, because that’s solely based on the unit’s warscroll.

[lemonicus]

33 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

Endless Spell preview - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/03/rules-preview-disciples-of-tzeentch-endless-spellsgw-homepage-post-3/

I see the tome and the sigil being useful, specially the first one with rerolling. The simulacrum, unless cheap doesn't do much damage.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Well, I guess we can’t really judge the Sigil entirely yet since we don’t know the other results of it.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Dreadmund]

They're really pushing Chaos Spawn, huh?

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

Endless Spell preview - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/03/rules-preview-disciples-of-tzeentch-endless-spellsgw-homepage-post-3/

Those are all nice. Points will decide on hiw nice though. Its cool that 3 different factions can use them too

[Neffelo]

I like the tome a lot, the permanent loss of leadership can be pretty crux depending on what army you are playing. I just hope it's not super expensive. 

[The_Dudemeister]

The wording is super loose. "Pick 1 unit... add 1 to the attacks characteristic" instead of pick a Tzeentch unit or whatever. I'm going to have so much fun with that in our 2vs2 matches. 😂

[Grimrock]

28 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

The wording is super loose. "Pick 1 unit... add 1 to the attacks characteristic" instead of pick a Tzeentch unit or whatever. I'm going to have so much fun with that in our 2vs2 matches. 😂

I assume it's worded that way because the opponent might get to control it like normal endless spells. Super risky if you're up against a combat army. 

Same with the simulacrum. Since the vast majority of the tzeentch army will be wizards it'll be super risky to have on the board. You get 3 mortal wounds on an enemy unit, then the opponent turns it around next turn and puts 5 into the wizard that cast it. Kind of like a chaos player bringing the quicksilver swords actually. 

[Neffelo]

2 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I assume it's worded that way because the opponent might get to control it like normal endless spells. Super risky if you're up against a combat army. 

Same with the simulacrum. Since the vast majority of the tzeentch army will be wizards it'll be super risky to have on the board. You get 3 mortal wounds on an enemy unit, then the opponent turns it around next turn and puts 5 into the wizard that cast it. Kind of like a chaos player bringing the quicksilver swords actually. 

We need to see the full wording, but I think there is a pretty high chance that it follows all of the recent tomes where the negative effects dont' affect <Keyword>

[Landohammer]

2 hours ago, Grimrock said:

The preview said that their Gestalt Sorcery ability, which used to give them a +1 to hit when near a wizard, was changed to make them a wizard when they have 9 or more models. So the ability to cast a spell that grants rend 1 comes at the cost of an ability that gave +1 to hit automatically with no dice needed. Rend 1 is nice, but it's close to a wash with +1 to hit and you can fail a 6 pretty easily. Plus rend doesn't really matter when you're hitting on 5s. 

I'm hoping the rest of the scroll got a rework or the sub faction for mortals helps them out. A native 4+ to hit is really a bare minimum for the ranged attacks, and I'd like to see the glaives do 2 damage each. Also shields on everyone since the models actually all get shields regardless of what weapon they're using. 

I just want them to be cheap, and have the ability to cast allegiance and endless spells.  I am not too optimistic on their shooting capability. For the most part GW errs on the side of caution for shooting. 

Historically each cast in Tzeentch armies have been ~90 points, so I find myself running out of points quickly even with just 4 or so casts. So if I can fill battle line and also score meaningful casts then I will be happy.

[Dollface]

2 hours ago, Dreadmund said:

They're really pushing Chaos Spawn, huh?

I'm glad. It's fun conversion opportunities.

[The_Dudemeister]

Can someone sell me on the spell Parchment Curse that is granted by Tome of Eyes? A Casting Value of 8 seems really high for what it does. And it's made much worse by having a 1 and 2 after that doing absolutely nothing AND you also don't want to end up with just a 1 on your third dice roll for damage. That seems pretty nuts.

Mathematically, rolling an 8 with reroll (thanks to Tome of Eyes) has a 58% chance, I think. Then needing a 3+ and wanting at least 2 damage means that even if we disregard denying, we're looking at a 26% chance to deal 2MWs and subtracting bravery by 2.

[Forrix]

7 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Can someone sell me on the spell Parchment Curse that is granted by Tome of Eyes? A Casting Value of 8 seems really high for what it does. And it's made much worse by having a 1 and 2 after that doing absolutely nothing AND you also don't want to end up with just a 1 on your third dice roll for damage. That seems pretty nuts.

Mathematically, rolling an 8 with reroll (thanks to Tome of Eyes) has a 58% chance, I think. Then needing a 3+ and wanting at least 2 damage means that even if we disregard denying, we're looking at a 26% chance to deal 2MWs and subtracting bravery by 2.

I'm assuming Tzeentch will be getting a lot of casts and bonuses to cast. LoCs currently match the lowest casting dice to the highest casting dice so they'd have a good chance of getting it off. I also expect they'll become 3 cast wizards in the new book to differentiate them more from the other Greater Demons . You will probably have enough casts with buffs to try tossing it out as a pot shot.

[Neffelo]

11 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Can someone sell me on the spell Parchment Curse that is granted by Tome of Eyes? A Casting Value of 8 seems really high for what it does. And it's made much worse by having a 1 and 2 after that doing absolutely nothing AND you also don't want to end up with just a 1 on your third dice roll for damage. That seems pretty nuts.

Mathematically, rolling an 8 with reroll (thanks to Tome of Eyes) has a 58% chance, I think. Then needing a 3+ and wanting at least 2 damage means that even if we disregard denying, we're looking at a 26% chance to deal 2MWs and subtracting bravery by 2.

I am sure it is costed this way because the bravery loss is permanent. That can end up being pretty huge. 

[Dollface]

Permanent and stackable with subsequent casts. Yikes.

[LordPrometheus]

42 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Can someone sell me on the spell Parchment Curse that is granted by Tome of Eyes? A Casting Value of 8 seems really high for what it does. And it's made much worse by having a 1 and 2 after that doing absolutely nothing AND you also don't want to end up with just a 1 on your third dice roll for damage. That seems pretty nuts.

Mathematically, rolling an 8 with reroll (thanks to Tome of Eyes) has a 58% chance, I think. Then needing a 3+ and wanting at least 2 damage means that even if we disregard denying, we're looking at a 26% chance to deal 2MWs and subtracting bravery by 2.

I'm almost positive there's going to be Covens and command abilities and spells that grant casting bonuses. It's kind of what Tzeentch does. I'm hoping for lots of fun craziness

[decker_cky]

1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Mathematically, rolling an 8 with reroll (thanks to Tome of Eyes) has a 58% chance, I think. Then needing a 3+ and wanting at least 2 damage means that even if we disregard denying, we're looking at a 26% chance to deal 2MWs and subtracting bravery by 2.

Worth noting that there can be value in the fact that it forces your opponent to decide whether to dispel without seeing the 3+. Tzeentch will have a lot of casts, so opponents will have to pick and choose which spells to defend. Parchment curse is potentially a devastating result, but the risk means some opponents who would otherwise dispel it will gamble on letting it through (or alternatively, they will spend resources dispelling a spell that wouldn't otherwise go through).

 

Also, your 26% chance is wrong. You don't cause average damage - assuming you target single wound infantry, you cause 1, 2 or 3 MW and subtract 1, 2 or 3 bravery. 3 MW and minus 3 bravery is a significant result.