AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Asimov]

12 minutes ago, Poryague said:

"Every time a Pink Horror is slain, you add two Blue Horrors to the unit. Every time a Blue Horror is slain, you get a base of Brimstone Horrors."

this sounds like pink, blues and brimstone will all be in the same unit rather then different units. Intresting mixed unit. If true.

I expect it to be like in 40K. Same unit, and thus you can allocate further wounds to your blues/brimstones in order to make your pinks (and their ability to cast a spell) last much longer. 
But if it plays like this, it would tend to extend the length of the turn, as you kill each horror one by one, summoning each time. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Asimov

[Poryague]

9 minutes ago, Asimov said:

I expect it to be like in 40K. Same unit, and thus you can allocate further wounds to your blues/brimstones in order to make your pinks (and their ability to cast a spell) last much longer. 
But if it plays like this, it would tend to extend the length of the turn, as you kill each horror one by one, summoning each time. 

Well you can math it out then put the appropriate models on the table. This will take some practice vs putting 1 model on at a time removing it and going through all those motions which would kill time. The other thing is how you place them it could be possible to put models back on the table behind the original unit and start splitting away from what attacked you. Thus freeing the unit from combat depending on how much damage was done.

[GeneralZero]

The rules of affecting the wounds has to be clearer: do we allocate all wounds BEFORE the blue horrors appeared? It'd be closer to "as intended" I think. I don't think that allocating wounds on ONE pink then on the 2 spawned blues etc... is in the spirit of this rule. BTW, tbh, it has to be faqued.

Edited January 2, 2020 by GeneralZero

[Dreadmund]

38 minutes ago, Poryague said:

"Every time a Pink Horror is slain, you add two Blue Horrors to the unit. Every time a Blue Horror is slain, you get a base of Brimstone Horrors."

this sounds like pink, blues and brimstone will all be in the same unit rather then different units. Intresting mixed unit. If true.

The changes to horrors sounds like an interesting mix of good and bad to me. But overall I definitely think simplification is an improvement and it sounds like they've been streamlined in a major way. How you use them will probably change a lot, but that's not necessarily bad! I can't wait to see the new horror warscroll and get some clarification on how splitting works exactly. Like, are the slain models added immediately? At the end of the phase? Does damage carry over to new models if all existing models are slain? Does there need to be at least 1 model left alive to grow the unit with a split? Do you need to kill all pinks before you can start killing blues or can I keep the unit's ability to cast spells for much longer?

Overall the article has me feeling optimistic about the book. But I'm an impatient man and I am already desperate for more detail

[Dreadmund]

18 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

The rules of affecting the wounds has to be clearer: do we allocate all wounds BEFORE the blue horrors appeared? It'd be closer to "as intended" I think. I don't think that allocating wounds on ONE pink then on the 2 spawned blues etc... is in the spirit of this rule. BTW, tbh, it has to be faqued.

 I think we can hold off on demanding FAQ's for rules no one has even seen yet lol. All we have is a loose paraphrasing of the rule from a community article.

[Neffelo]

Tzeentch is looking really good so far.

The hidden agendas seem really neat, can add up to be some nice little bonuses throughout the game.

Just two days until the full preview! 

[Landohammer]

So far the changes are all looking great. The changes to acolytes is *really* interesting, especially if they get access to allegiance spells.

Also the Locus effectively makes all Daemon characters -1 to hit in melee. Thats a huge buff for LoC.

Pink Horrors could really become insane if they manage to get -1 to hit. 

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 minute ago, Landohammer said:

So far the changes are all looking great. The changes to acolytes is *really* interesting, especially if they get access to allegiance spells.

Also the Locus effectively makes all Daemon characters -1 to hit in melee. Thats a huge buff for LoC.

Pink Horrors could really become insane if they manage to get -1 to hit. 

 

They lose their Locus of Conjuration though.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Asimov said:

I expect it to be like in 40K. Same unit, and thus you can allocate further wounds to your blues/brimstones in order to make your pinks (and their ability to cast a spell) last much longer. 
But if it plays like this, it would tend to extend the length of the turn, as you kill each horror one by one, summoning each time. 

In AoS you don’t remove models until all the attacks are resolved; IIRC. Meaning you probably won’t be able to do the shenanigans like in 40k.

EDIT: NM, even though this is the case the rules do state that models are slain as soon as their last remaining wound is allocated.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Hopefully they got rend 1 and ist just increased by 1!😕 otherwise they are still ******.....

They may get other warscroll changes yet.

And Champions, melee combat and destiny dice cheese aside, with the Rend they outperform Skyfires with a Shaman buff.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Poryague]

12 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

In AoS you don’t remove models until all the attacks are resolved; IIRC. Meaning you probably won’t be able to do the shenanigans like in 40k.

No you remove models when wounds are resolved against a model. There is wounding section in core rules. Wounds are applied one at a time until the model is slain. So in horrors case you apply 1 wound the model is slain and splits then apply the next wound.

Edit the quote was edited the same time I posted this never mind .

Edited January 2, 2020 by Poryague

[relic456]

If I were GW (lol) and didn't want that kind of shenanigans, I would just have a line on the warscroll that says "Any wounds allocated to this unit must first be applied to Pink Horror models, then Blue Horror models, then Brimstone Horror models". Personally I'd rather they go with allowing the shenanigans, I love shenanigans!

[mmimzie]

The change to horrors problem makes the whole thing one unit and it's all one save. 

 

So likely all you do is roll all your saves (as saves are rolled before damage is allocated). Then you just figure out how many pink, blues and brims die as a result. Basicly each pink has 5 wounds.

 

Also assuming we don't get a point boost we can use the gaunt summoner on disc from slaves and summoning a unit of Pink's with each. Those pink I'm our army get spells. Making that probably the best way to grab a unit of Pink's if they are getting a pts hike.

Edited January 2, 2020 by mmimzie

[Sinfullyvannila]

Disc Magister has the same spell as the one on foot, so it’s probably not a huge deal if you can’t get one from the battle box.

[Grimrock]

Tzeentch did have a number of fun locuses so I'm a bit sad to see them go, but -1 to hit in melee across the board is pretty solid and it's always possible they might move the old locus powers to built in rules. Either way I guess we'll see how everything ends up this weekend.

Rend 1 on the flamers is pretty solid but I don't think it'll solve the issues with horrors. Imo, their biggest problem has always been the 4+ to hit/4+ to wound statline. If that stays the same then they're probably going to be relegated to annoying tarpit status. Assuming the split rule is generous then 50 wounds at a -1 to hit is a pretty good tarpit, but still not particularly exciting. 

The agendas sound neat but if the preview is anything to go by they might be pretty tough to pull off. The only one that can do the casting agenda consistently right now is the Lord of Change, and even then he'd have to get a bit lucky. Plus if a caster that can do 2 casts at a 9+ in one turn, who cares if they get a +1 for the rest of the game? The only thing I can think of is burning through a lot of Destiny dice on an average caster but that doesn't seem anywhere near worth the investment. I'm curious to see what the rest look like. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

9 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I don't think it'll solve the issues with horrors. Imo, their biggest problem has always been the 4+ to hit/4+ to wound statline.

Pinks do their damage through spells. The attacks are just a bonus.

[mmimzie]

Horrors have always been our front line that hold objective really well. This has been true in every way they've done split. the Original DoC spliting let us have almost unmatched objective control. The summoning version let us continuously summon unit to put on objectives all over the table. With this new various it's more like the original, but fair to your opponent. 

On top of this they've been wizards able to cast spells from our lore and cheat the range for endless spells.  The shooting attack is just a free wound or so every turn. 

They've been our strongest back bone unit up until now in AoS and i think even if they go up to 220 they'll stay that was, as 50 wounds is like clan rat tear of durability. 

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

Oh man, I just realized that you’ll most likely be able to cast an endless spell with your pinks, run them over with it, then immediately get blue horrors which you can conga line forward.

[Grimrock]

54 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Pinks do their damage through spells. The attacks are just a bonus.

I should clarify that I don't think pinks are bad, just that the ranged attack has always been awful. With them likely losing the +1 to cast they won't be as reliable for spell damage anymore, pushing more reliance on their conventional attacks. If the attacks don't get improved then the unit might be stuck as a tarpit with a little magic damage here and there. A pretty good tarpit, but a tarpit none the less.

Plus if the splitting rules are more restrictive (like you can't split if the whole unit is dead) then they will be vulnerable to being one shotted off the board and won't be able to tarpit at all. No clue how that'll go though, I'm just being pessimistic for now. Looking forward to seeing the preview video this weekend. 

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Grimrock

[GeneralZero]

Let's also wait some more infos about, for example, the ES....

[Sigwarus]

9 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

The agendas sound neat but if the preview is anything to go by they might be pretty tough to pull off. The only one that can do the casting agenda consistently right now is the Lord of Change, and even then he'd have to get a bit lucky. Plus if a caster that can do 2 casts at a 9+ in one turn, who cares if they get a +1 for the rest of the game? The only thing I can think of is burning through a lot of Destiny dice on an average caster but that doesn't seem anywhere near worth the investment. I'm curious to see what the rest look like. 

I almost always use DD early on for castings and getting +1 for the rest of the battle seems tempting. Also dont forget the herald of tzeentch who can cast spells with 3 Dice once per game. 

[The_Dudemeister]

Flamers with -1 rend are very interesting to me. If their warscroll and cost stay the same, 9 of them for 420 are pretty devastating. With "Look Out, Sir", they'd deal 8 damage on a 4+ hero on average or 6 damage on 3+. With their 9" flying movement and 18" range there's hardly a way to protect heroes from them.

Point for point that's very similar damage output to Celestar Ballistas with Rapid Fire (also 18" range but only 3" movement)

[Sigwarus]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Oh man, I just realized that you’ll most likely be able to cast an endless spell with your pinks, run them over with it, then immediately get blue horrors which you can conga line forward.

Or even better, hitting them with pendulum from another wizard and then casting spells with them from the now extended range.

31 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Pus if the splitting rules are more restrictive (like you can't split if the whole unit is dead) then they will be vulnerable to being one shotted off the board and won't be able to tarpit at all.

 

This could even mean that units of 20 pinks will hit the Battlefield.

[Grimrock]

34 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

I almost always use DD early on for castings and getting +1 for the rest of the battle seems tempting. Also dont forget the herald of tzeentch who can cast spells with 3 Dice once per game. 

I did think of that but he only gets the boost on the first cast, so he still needs that hard 9 on the second. Might be worth a couple DD though... One thing I did come up with, since you declare the agenda your opponent might save their dispels to try to stop the casts. That might help you get more important spells  through making the agenda worth it even if the bonus doesn't happen.

25 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

This could even mean that units of 20 pinks will hit the Battlefield.

Now that could be fun haha. Expensive as all get out and difficult to keep in the locus range, but it would take ages for most opponents to work through it.

[decker_cky]

7 hours ago, Qaz said:

I think the Tzaangors and their brethren are unlikely to change from their update in BoC. If so, would Locus of Change (-1 to hit in combat) on Enlightened Tzaangors make a good unit even better? Especially if Fold Reality sticks around. 🤔

I am doubtful that both Fold Reality will remain and disc riders will still gain daemon. I think it is quite likely that a new keyword "DISC OF TZEENTCH" is added to mortal disc riders instead of "DAEMON".

I would be surprised if foot tzaangors did not change (they should get a simplified warscroll like plague monks and ardboyz), so I don't see why disc riding tzaangors should be considered sacred.