AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[MitGas]

Can we even use said Endless Spell though? I'll add some Warriors to my army but purely because I like them. I also bought Varanguard as I'm into super-buff warriors but I won't delude myself into thinking that more enlightened would've been a better choice.  

[Freejack02]

The Gaunt Summoner on Disc can, because he has the StD keyword. Not sure how worthwhile it will be, but the potential damage buff for each other endless spell could be really significant. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Freejack02

[RUNCMD]

What are peoples predictions for the new Tome that will most likely come next year, if any?

I've been thinking of / would like the following:

• New Scenery Pieces
• Tzeentch specific Endless Spells (given/would be surprised if we didn't)
• No Changes would be made to Pink Horrors
• Better Fate Points/Summoning scheme
  • Also with whatever they decide to do, make the summoning a bit more worth it to summon things other than Blues and Brims
• New plastic Curseling
• New plastic Fatemaster
• Horde benefits of taking lots of Kairics
• Couple new Hero's - maybe even a decent named Character?
• I'd really love Changehost to be kept as a Battallion (mostly because thats where most of my Tzeentch model count comes from) but if it's gone then well... damn!
• New Warscrolls/better Warscrolls for Flamer Chariots and also their Battallion/s
• Gaunt Summoner (not on Disc) have his Demon Summoning thing Changed to be to just use a spell and NOT need a Realmgate
  • Also not have his current Infernal Flames spell nurfed, buuut cant be greedy right?
• More buffs overall really

I mean this is all wishful thinking / a lot of the above won't happen, but, I can dream right lol.

Interested to hear what others think or would like!

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

What are peoples predictions for the new Tome that will most likely come next year, if any?

If the Khorne book is anything to go by, I think we can expect something like this:

• massively simplified battalions. crazy stuff like changehost will be gone and replaced by single ability battalions with a variety of usefulness. there will be some gems and some duds like always
• simplified warscrolls. mixed weapons from the tzaangors removed and toolkits like the ogroid or gaunt summoner trimmed
• powerful terrain and endless spells. honestly this seems super obvious since it's tzeentch and tzeentch should really be the best at magic, but it's rarely been the case in the past so I'm not very hopeful
• a good points rework that helps internal balance, but still leaves some outliers
• models that haven't sold well in the past getting a solid buff, personally I'd expect screamers or exalted flamers/chariot flamers to be the standout option in the new book. maybe kairic acolytes. typically this comes along with nerfs to units that have sold well, so maybe expect a hit to tzaangor enlightened since the rest seems pretty balanced right now
• very few resculpts if any. with the way they're trying to get books up to par they've been cutting resculpts to the bare minimum. I could see a fatemaster or something similar, but it might be just as likely that they cut the model entirely (like they did with the slaanesh hero on daemonic steed)
• hosts with differing abilities, maybe casting buffs or summoning buffs. there are a few cults/daemon legions detailed in the lore of the current book, so I'd expect those. typically 2 for mortals and 2 for daemons

Of course they might go completely off the rails and do something wacky, but this seems like the standard pattern for releases. If we get endless spells and terrain, and daemons still have a place in the army, I'll be pretty happy. Maybe a rework for the Lord of Change so I feel better about putting him on the board haha.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Grimrock

[Dreadmund]

4 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Gaunt Summoner (not on Disc) have his Demon Summoning thing Changed to be to just use a spell and NOT need a Realmgate

I really doubt this. Summoning a free unit of 10 models each turn is preposterously overpowered. It will probably be like the GS on disc: once per battle and takes up a spellcast. Still brilliant though!

[MitGas]

If he can also summon a unit of daemons for free, running two Gaunts might be quite amazing. Would also give Kairics a place to shine as they'd be the token battleline units in many lists.

 

That said, here are my wishes/hopes:

New plastic Curseling and/or Fatemaster

Better rules for Kairic Acolytes - they are pretty damn bad, at least in my games they are  

A fraction more durability - yeah, every army needs a weakness but most of our stuff gets overrun too easily. I hope there will be something nice for Tzeentch Chaos Warriors, so that we have a decent tank option.

Maybe a cool dedicated Warrior unit like Tzeentch Forsaken or something.

Not 20 pages of FAQ needed after the release

 

What I expect:

Endless Spells - if any army should have their own, it's Tzeentch.

Some OP terrain that will be nerfed back to uselessness (like one extra spell per round at first, then later on will give +1 to banning enemy spells or something :D)

Enlightened getting nerfed

Tzaangors losing mixing weapons

Gaunt Summoner more like the one on disc

50 pages of FAQs so that new shiny battletome will be useless.

 

I'm a sunshine, I know!

 

 

[Frowny]

Interesting thoughts. 

For endless spells, I actually think tzeentch might get some kind of cities of sigmar like treatment, maybe being able to use everyone else's endless spells. That would seem very fitting. Maybe even without their own spells. 

[RUNCMD]

16 hours ago, Dreadmund said:

I really doubt this. Summoning a free unit of 10 models each turn is preposterously overpowered. It will probably be like the GS on disc: once per battle and takes up a spellcast. Still brilliant though!

Yeah only once per battle. Not once per turn. too OP. Just to not have the realmgate to do it.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Anything Tzaangor is going to be unchanged. If they were going to change them for the book, they’d have just changed them in the Winter Ipdate for Beasts of Chaos.

 

 

[Neffelo]

34 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Anything Tzaangor is going to be unchanged. If they were going to change them for the book, they’d have just changed them in the Winter Ipdate for Beasts of Chaos.

 

 

Not true. They could have new warscrolls and points value in DoT, which will then just retroactively change them in  BoC.  It did not need to be updated in the Winter FAQ for this to happen. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 hours ago, Neffelo said:

Not true. They could have new warscrolls and points value in DoT, which will then just retroactively change them in  BoC.  It did not need to be updated in the Winter FAQ for this to happen. 

Well, any prediction by your criteria can’t be true; but why would they wait until the Tzeentch book comes out when it’s probably only going to be 4 months until the next GHB? And why would they wait until an updated faction book to nerf a different faction(Beasts of Chaos).

It’s not as if anything with the TZAANGOR keyword is broken. It’s just that Enlightened don’t have any competition in the Tzeentch faction for a hammer.

 

So I don’t say it with absolute certainty, but I’ll say it with the highest confidence; TZAANGORS aren’t going to be touched in the new DoT book.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Dreadmund]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Well, any prediction by your criteria can’t be true; but why would they wait until the Tzeentch book comes out when it’s probably only going to be 4 months until the next GHB? And why would they wait until an updated faction book to nerf a different faction(Beasts of Chaos).

It’s not as if anything with the TZAANGOR keyword is broken. It’s just that Enlightened don’t have any competition in the Tzeentch faction for a hammer.

 

So I don’t say it with absolute certainty, but I’ll say it with the highest confidence; TZAANGORS aren’t going to be touched in the new DoT book.

Okay but by your logic, why not update all warscrolls for Tzeentch, Kharadron and Seraphon in the FAQ? Why hold anything back for the Battletome at all?

The reason is that the FAQ is an opportunity to make changes to things that won't have another opportunity for a substantial amount of time. A battletome is an opportunity to roll out lots of changes for a single faction in one go. If there is going to be a battletome for a faction in the next 6 months, there's less reason to push out those changes to the general public. Think of the FAQ like slapping a band aid on a problem, fixing it in the short term until that army's next publication date.

[Sinfullyvannila]

43 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

 

Okay but by your logic, why not update all warscrolls for Tzeentch, Kharadron and Seraphon in the FAQ?

Not my logic because I’m only referring to unrestricted cross-faction units.

We’re talking about 4 warscrolls and point profiles here.

[Dreadmund]

9 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Not my logic because I’m only referring to unrestricted cross-faction units.

We’re talking about 4 warscrolls and point profiles here.

Exactly. 4 profiles which are imminently due for an update. So why add them to the FAQ when warscrolls and points are due to be updated in a new printed publication? What's the rush?

[Sinfullyvannila]

45 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

Exactly. 4 profiles which are imminently due for an update. So why add them to the FAQ when warscrolls and points are due to be updated in a new printed publication? What's the rush?

Because they are currently relevant to a faction that you are ignoring.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Dreadmund]

30 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Because they are currently relevant to a faction that you are ignoring.

Lol okay man whatever. You do you. All I'm saying is that it's not as unlikely as you think that they might get some small changes. How you've turned that into "You are biased against beasts of chaos" is beyond me but if you need an outlet for rage I suggest youtube comments rather than TGA. It's a better void to shout into. All I'm going to say is that if you expect GW to be perfectly efficient with their updates and FAQs you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Does the logic of what you're saying make sense? Sure. Does it match how things have been done in the past? Nah.

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, Dreadmund said:

Lol okay man whatever. You do you. All I'm saying is that it's not as unlikely as you think that they might get some small changes. How you've turned that into "You are biased against beasts of chaos" is beyond me but if you need an outlet for rage I suggest youtube comments rather than TGA. It's a better void to shout into. All I'm going to say is that if you expect GW to be perfectly efficient with their updates and FAQs you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Does the logic of what you're saying make sense? Sure. Does it match how things have been done in the past? Nah.

Yeah, I don’t have anything to be enraged about because I don’t play BoC and I’m not going to Intentionally work myself up about hypothetical changes. I actually  ideally wish Tzaangors got their first extra attack at 5 models and another at 25 so that they could compete better with Pinks at the same price point. But objectively I don’t see it happening.

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Because they are currently relevant to a faction that you are ignoring.

Keep in mind that when Beasts of Chaos released the tzaangors got warscroll and point changes despite the fact that they were already a part of the Disciples of Tzeentch faction. I see absolutely no reason why the same thing couldn't happen in reverse this time around.

The main reason why I expect it is most disciples lists have been revolving around tzaangors in one form or another since the book dropped (aside from changehost). GW tends to address that behaviour with new books, tweaking the strongest models or builds so they're less optimal and buffing the weaker choices so people will consider picking those models up. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

25 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

The main reason why I expect it is most disciples lists have been revolving around tzaangors in one form or another since the book dropped (aside from changehost).

Changehost and horrors definitely got more popular after the nerfs to Tzaangors and Skyfires.

The problem isn’t with the TZAANGORS being too strong though. The problem is that all the daemons other than Horrors and Heroes aren’t  bringing enough to the table.

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Changehost and horrors definitely got more popular after the nerfs to Tzaangors and Skyfires.

The problem isn’t with the TZAANGORS being too strong though. The problem is that all the daemons other than Horrors and Heroes aren’t  bringing enough to the table.

 

For sure. I mean enlightened might be a little high on the curve, but certainly no more broken than some of the newer models. GW can be pretty fickle though, and there are a lot of tzaangor out there already. Doesn't make much financial sense to buff them since that might not translate to many sales. 

Might be cynical but in my experience it's extremely rare to have something really good in one version of a book still be really good in the next version. There might not be nerfs, but the power combos might be tweaked.... Huh, actually now that I think of it I bet Fold Reality changes to healing D6 wounds rather than returning D6 models. They can do the usual wording about returning D6 wounds worth of models and boom, enlightened are suddenly much less appealing without impacting their performance in Beasts of Chaos. Then they'll buff other stuff as usual and the book will end up in a good place. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Grimrock

[Neffelo]

2 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Keep in mind that when Beasts of Chaos released the tzaangors got warscroll and point changes despite the fact that they were already a part of the Disciples of Tzeentch faction. I see absolutely no reason why the same thing couldn't happen in reverse this time around.

The main reason why I expect it is most disciples lists have been revolving around tzaangors in one form or another since the book dropped (aside from changehost). GW tends to address that behaviour with new books, tweaking the strongest models or builds so they're less optimal and buffing the weaker choices so people will consider picking those models up. 

This exactly, I am unsure why @Sinfullyvannila doesn't quite understand that, and it has already happened  before. 

While I don't know if Tzaangors will be changed, I would not be surprised. Just adding in new subfaction rules can raise their power pretty significantly.

I am really hoping everything else in our book gets raised up, rather than just a Tzaangor nerf. 

[DarrinTheOccult]

I would love being able to use flamers, chariots, screamers, kairic acolytes, etc without the feel of wasting points. I don't run a changehost because I don't want to buy and paint thousands of horrors while we have a lot more of choices in the faction (althought they are not really competitive.). That's what I'm mainly hoping for.

[Freejack02]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:35 AM, DarrinTheOccult said:

I would love being able to use flamers, chariots, screamers, kairic acolytes, etc without the feel of wasting points.

Flamers 100% deserve their time in the sun, they've been bad the entirety of AoS. Chariots haven't been great, but playable, but I don't think Kairic Acolytes will see much more than they get now. 

[MitGas]

I think Screamers deserve a total rework even more than Flamers. They suck so hard right now they don't even get used in fluffy lists anymore. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 12/20/2019 at 11:43 AM, Neffelo said:

This exactly, I am unsure why @Sinfullyvannila doesn't quite understand that, and it has already happened  before. 

While I don't know if Tzaangors will be changed, I would not be surprised. Just adding in new subfaction rules can raise their power pretty significantly.

I am really hoping everything else in our book gets raised up, rather than just a Tzaangor nerf. 

Don’t mistake my disagreement with misunderstanding.

 

The old changes were 1 1/2 year apart, on a 1 year change cycle. The hypothetical changes will be 1-3 months apart on a 1/2 year cycle